Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Truth_Warrior]

The way I see the comma is that one point of view sees it one way and another point of view sees it the other way.

I personally see it after "today" otherwise there is a problem with what Jesus said.

Thats my opinion and others have another opinion because it fits what they have been taught concerning Heaven,Paradise and hell.

Don't think debating it will change anyones opinion though for its been debated to its fullest.

Gotta wonder though...if a person goes straight to heaven and is doing just fine all that time ,then why in the heck would there be a need for a ressurection at all?

 

[Timothew]

σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ
today with me

The "today" is explicity "with me". I don't see how it can get any clearer than that.

You are correct. However, λεγω σοι σημερον, I tell you today,
Today is also explicitly with "I tell you".
It also doesn't get any clearer than that.

Truth Warrior is correct,

The way I see the comma is that one point of view sees it one way and another point of view sees it the other way.

The translation concerning the commas depends on the theology of the translator.

 

[he-man]

You are correct. However, λεγω σοι σημερον, I tell you today,
Today is also explicitly with "I tell you".
It also doesn't get any clearer than that.

Truth Warrior is correct,

The translation concerning the commas depends on the theology of the translator.

I Corinthians 2:10: "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God." It was impossible for the comman to be after today, Jesus was going to be dead for 3 1/2 days in fact there is no punctuation at all in the early Manuscripts.

A person is not born into the Kingdom of God until after the resurrection even the thief was aware of that.

Luk 23:42 And he said: Jesus, remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom.
43 και ειπεν αυτω αμην σοι λεγω σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω
43 And he said to him Verily I say to thee this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You are correct. However, λεγω σοι σημερον, I tell you today,
Today is also explicitly with "I tell you".
It also doesn't get any clearer than that.

Truth Warrior is correct,

The translation concerning the commas depends on the theology of the translator.

If it is "I tell you today" then the today is just a throw away statement that adds nothing to the sentence. Your interpretation is that the word today is just fluff that has no real bearing on anything.

You like to explain away the parts of the Bible that you don't like as fluff, poetic flourishes and meaningless banter. You have no real respect for the Bible.

 

[Timothew]

You have no real respect for the Bible.

Indeed. That's why I spent the last 3 years learning greek so I can read the new testament in it's original language. Because I have no real respect for the bible. Really?

 

[createdtoworship]

You are correct. However, λεγω σοι σημερον, I tell you today,
Today is also explicitly with "I tell you".
It also doesn't get any clearer than that.

Truth Warrior is correct,

The translation concerning the commas depends on the theology of the translator.

Jehovah's witnesses put a comma after today. What does that make us if we believe the same?

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/lu/chapter_023.htm


One 'Christian' website says:
"Of course, there is ONE English version which does put the comma after the "today" in Luke 22:43 - the New World Translation, the "Bible" of Jehovah's Witnesses. But their reason for doing so is their preconceived theology, not grammar. JWs do not believe the righteous go directly to "paradise" after death. They believe people enter a state of non-existence at death, only to be "re-created" at the resurrection.However, even in the NWT, every place else the phrase occurs, the comma is placed directly after "you." So the burden of proof would be on them to prove why the phrase should be punctuated differently this one time and to explain why Jesus would have changed His lifetime practice while at the point of death.So the reason the ALT and most every other version places the comma before "today" is consistency and simple logic. There really is no reason to place the comma after "today" - unless someone is trying to uphold their pre-conceived theology."-emphasis mine.
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Jehovah's Witnesses and Luke 23:43 -- A Case Study in Watchtower Interpretation," Part Three in a four-part series on Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible (an article from the Christian Research Journal, Summer 1989, page 23) by Robert M. Bowman, Jr. The Editor-in-Chief of the Christian Research Journal is Elliot Miller.

"It is highly significant that out of the 74 times the expression occurs in the Bible, the NWT places a break immediately after it 73 times; Luke 23:43 is the _only_ exception. (Most translations follow this pattern in all 74 instances.) These breaks are placed in one of two ways. In 10 cases, the NWT has the word "that" immediately after the expression, so that the text reads, "Truly I tell you that..." (e.g., Matt. 5:18; 16:28; Mark 3:28; Luke 4:24). In 63 cases, the NWT inserts a comma immediately after the expression and capitalizes the following word (e.g., Matt. 5:26; 26:13, 21, 34; Mark 8:12; 14:9, 18, 25, 30; Luke 11:51; 21:32; John 1:51; 21:18). Unless there is overwhelming evidence from the context that Luke 23:43 is an exception to the above pattern, it should be translated according to Jesus' normal usage of the expression. This leads me to my second observation (related to the first): _JWs usually interpret a biblical text deductively rather than inductively._ That is, they usually base their interpretation on what they have already concluded must be true ("deductive" reasoning) rather than examining all of the relevant material in Scripture before drawing a conclusion ("inductive" reasoning)."

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0055a.html

 

[Timothew]

Jehovah's witnesses put a comma after today. What does that make us if we believe the same?

Online Bible: Luke 23:1-56 - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

It should be made known that the stance taken by the NWT translators is not so unique. The book,"Reasoning from the Scriptures,"(WTB&TS, p.288.)quotes German Bible translator L.Reinhardt in his ftnote," The punctuation presently used[by most translators]in this verse is undoubtedly false and contradictory to the entire way of thinking of Christ and the evildoer...[Christ] certainly did not understand paradise to be a subdivision of the realm of the dead,but rather the restoration of a paradise on earth." Did Reinhardt have a "preconceived theology" aswell? J.B.Rotherham was a Bible translator and British clergyman and definitely did not share a "theology" with Jehovah's Witnesses over this passage before us.

It makes us someone who realizes that the commas were not in the original language?

It wouldn't make me a Jehovah's Witness since I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and He is actually God Himself, one person of the Holy Trinity.

I also give blood every time the Red Cross comes around. What does that make me?

 

[createdtoworship]

Indeed. That's why I spent the last 3 years learning greek so I can read the new testament in it's original language. Because I have no real respect for the bible. Really?

then you would know that Luke 23:43 has a comma before and not after it

CRI Journal - CRJ0055A

 

[Timothew]

then you would know that Luke 23:43 has a comma before and not after it

CRI Journal - CRJ0055A

Are you kidding? Do you actually believe the original manuscript had a comma. You must be joking. You should put a when you tell a joke so we know when to laugh.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Face the facts, Timothew. JW's are the only group that agree with you here.

 

[createdtoworship]

It makes us someone who realizes that the commas were not in the original language?

It wouldn't make me a Jehovah's Witness since I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and He is actually God Himself, one person of the Holy Trinity.

I also give blood every time the Red Cross comes around. What does that make me?

just excuses. We know if you quack like a duck you are one.

 

[createdtoworship]

Are you kidding? Do you actually believe the original manuscript had a comma. You must be joking. You should put a when you tell a joke so we know when to laugh.

so then it's okay to put it after? I am not following you here...

 

[Timothew]

just excuses. We know if you quack like a duck you are one.

I am not a JW, thank you very much. Are you?

 

[Timothew]

so then it's okay to put it after? I am not following you here...

You need to go back and re-read the thread. In post 891, LutheranMafia made a big deal about Luke 23:43, how it somehow proved that Jesus ascended into heaven that very day. When someone looked at the verse differently, LM accused him of calling Jesus a liar. (nice, right? )
So I pointed out that are were no commas in the original manuscripts, and the verse could have another meaning that LM was unaware of, and perhaps the other poster was not actually calling Jesus Christ a liar. (Which would be a weird thing for a Christian to do, right? I think LM was accusing the other poster of not being a Christian, which is of course, against the rules).

So theology determines where you put the commas, so the verse does not prove what LM intended it to prove.

Now you are attempting to say that I demand the comma be put after the word "today", but I am not. I'm just saying that there were no commas in the original and the verse can't be used to justify a theology that requires a specific comma placement. And think about it. If your theory of theology is so weak that it breaks if you move the comma, is it really that good?

Now, if you can prove from other scriptures that spirits go to heaven the day the body dies, I'm all ears. But appealing to a non-existent comma doesn't really prove anything.

 

[Timothew]

just excuses. We know if you quack like a duck you are one.

You do know that it is a logical fallacy to say someone is wrong just because someone else believes the same thing.

Bob believes that Dayton is in Ohio, and everyone knows that Bob failed geography. Therefore Dayton cannot be in Ohio.

 

[LutheranMafia]

And think about it. If your theory of theology is so weak that it breaks if you move the comma, is it really that good?

There are a number of other verses that corroborate this traditional Christian orthodox theology, but you have similarly spurious reasons for dismissing all of them, based on labeling the scriptures as meaningless poetry or simply dismissing the scriptures entirely as you do with 1 Samuel 28.

 

[Timothew]

There are a number of other verses that corroborate this traditional Christian orthodox theology, but you have similarly spurious reasons for dismissing all of them, based on labeling the scriptures as meaningless poetry or simply dismissing the scriptures entirely as you do with 1 Samuel 28.

Spurious reasons like refusing to accept the scriptures as you've twisted them? "Saul knew that it was Samuel" It was NOT Samuel's Ghost. You keep reading spirits into the bible that are not there.

 

[createdtoworship]

You need to go back and re-read the thread. In post 891, LutheranMafia made a big deal about Luke 23:43, how it somehow proved that Jesus ascended into heaven that very day. When someone looked at the verse differently, LM accused him of calling Jesus a liar. (nice, right? )
So I pointed out that are were no commas in the original manuscripts, and the verse could have another meaning that LM was unaware of, and perhaps the other poster was not actually calling Jesus Christ a liar. (Which would be a weird thing for a Christian to do, right? I think LM was accusing the other poster of not being a Christian, which is of course, against the rules).

So theology determines where you put the commas, so the verse does not prove what LM intended it to prove.

Now you are attempting to say that I demand the comma be put after the word "today", but I am not. I'm just saying that there were no commas in the original and the verse can't be used to justify a theology that requires a specific comma placement. And think about it. If your theory of theology is so weak that it breaks if you move the comma, is it really that good?

Now, if you can prove from other scriptures that spirits go to heaven the day the body dies, I'm all ears. But appealing to a non-existent comma doesn't really prove anything.

westcott and hort has the comma (before). And that is the basis for most translations in use today so unless you are going to make your own translation I think your stuck with Hort.

 

[createdtoworship]

You do know that it is a logical fallacy to say someone is wrong just because someone else believes the same thing.

Bob believes that Dayton is in Ohio, and everyone knows that Bob failed geography. Therefore Dayton cannot be in Ohio.

wait a minute, I thought you DIDN'T adhere to JW grammar? Now you do?

 

[LutheranMafia]

just excuses. We know if you quack like a duck you are one.

8()

\_O<