Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Lisa*Lisa]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Let's Talk About Hell (2)"

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I've been out of commission for the last few days. Probably won't be on much at a time for the next week or two.

Anyway, I'll go back to the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

The point I was trying to make is this: If people are not with God immediately after death or in hell immediately after death, the story of Lazarus and the rich man can automatically be termed as not 100 percent literal.

Lazarus and the rich man talks about what happens to these two men after death, and before any type of judgement day. This would mean that the two men are conscious in some way without having their bodies resurrected. That was partly why I asked "What's the point of us having bodies if we're conscious with Jesus in paradise already when we die?" If it can be proven that people are not in heaven or hell immediately after death(immediately being defined as any time prior to judgement day), this story loses credibility as a literal story. I cannot stress that enough though, it loses credibility as a LITERAL STORY. That does not mean that whatever lesson it was trying to teach loses any value.

I could name a few contradictions within the story of Lazarus and the rich man if we agree this happens before any type of judgement day, thereby assuming these two men no longer have any physical bodies.

1. Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue because I am in agony in this fire.

How is the rich man thirsty if he has no body? I could also ask how he could be in agony in fire if he has no body, but no one seems to see the problem with this. If it were to happen after judgement day, it would sort of make sense as everyone is resurrected to be judged. However, this clearly takes place before judgement day as the rich man asks Abraham (not God) to tell his family about the pain of being in Hades.

2. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

If this chasm is literal, I assume its some sort of great hole or distance between where the rich man is and where Abraham and Lazarus are. Why would a great distance separate them? If the rich man and Lazarus do not have physical bodies, what keeps them separated? If they do have physical bodies, how is this even possible prior to judgement day?

Those are the two most obvious problems that arise from looking at the story literally, to me anyways.

If people are "asleep" until judgement day, then the story of Lazarus and the rich man cannot take place. There is one verse that says "To be absent of body is to be present with God", but there is also a verse that says "David still sleeps with his fathers." There's also the whole judgement day thing and the dead being risen from their graves. Which is true if they're both supposed to be literal?

My other question about spirit was basically asking this. Is spirit your source of strength, or is it a part of your existence. In other words, if God were to rip out our spirit and put it someone else (this is purely a what if scenario, I'm not asking if its proven or not in the Bible), how would this affect you and the other person that now has your spirit? Basically, what does your spirit do for you? What is it to you?

If spirit is a source of your strength and life, then there's a good reason why spiritual death is not mentioned; its because its not who you are but what strengthens you. Without spirit, you are the computer hardware and the OS, waiting to be powered up. In other words, when body and soul die, you are essentially no more. Your spirit goes back to God, but its not really you anymore.

If spirit is a part of who you are identity wise, then what is soul? What is the spirit part of you? Why would the spirit be tortured in some fashion eternally but not the body and soul?

 

[Soulgazer]

Hillsage

One for Him

62

Join Date: 12th June 2009
Location: The land of OZ
Posts: 502
Blessings: 47,903 [Bless]
Reps: 16,216,612,372,364,262 (power: 16,216,612,372,367)

Originally Posted by Soulgazer

Not at all; Many people have had encounters with what is unexplained. The falsehoods only arise when somebody attempts to explain them.
​

I guess I am of the persuasion that explanations may come better from someone who has had an experience than from someone who hasn't...and I have had a few. And I personally feel that it was closer to your #2 explanation...but not limited to it. I have physically 'heard' and been 'grabbed' in a couple of encounters where no one human was there. These demons weren't "impersonating" anyone but they sure scared me.
__________________
HILLSAGE He who only knows 'that which he believes' doesn't even know that.

Well there you go. You are basing your assumption that it was a demon on your religious belief. You don't know. Could have been a p+ssed off angel having a bad day. Could have been a ghost just trying to get your attention. Could have been an inter dimensional wild animal attack. There are all kinds of could have beens, but, and I'm not picking on you, you picked an explanation that matches your beliefs. Someone else might have chalked it up to "a bit of bad potato". Another might have used the experience as evidence to justify their belief in alien abduction. They would be equally guilty of assigning an explanation to an unexplainable encounter. It's better just to say what the experience was, without trying to produce an explanation.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Ugh, you can't quote anything from the previous thread. What a pain.

I've been out of commission for the last few days. Probably won't be on much at a time for the next week or two.

Anyway, I'll go back to the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

The point I was trying to make is this: If people are not with God immediately after death or in hell immediately after death, the story of Lazarus and the rich man can automatically be termed as not 100 percent literal.

Obviously, but nothing you wrote here explains what the allegory would be. You repeatedly address the possibility of it not being literal without ever addressing what the allegory could actually be.

Lazarus and the rich man talks about what happens to these two men after death, and before any type of judgement day. This would mean that the two men are conscious in some way without having their bodies resurrected. That was partly why I asked "What's the point of us having bodies if we're conscious with Jesus in paradise already when we die?" If it can be proven that people are not in heaven or hell immediately after death(immediately being defined as any time prior to judgement day), this story loses credibility as a literal story. I cannot stress that enough though, it loses credibility as a LITERAL STORY. That does not mean that whatever lesson it was trying to teach loses any value.

What lesson is that?? My whole point is that it makes absolutely no sense as allegory because there is no possible allegorical lesson that I can see.

I could name a few contradictions within the story of Lazarus and the rich man if we agree this happens before any type of judgement day, thereby assuming these two men no longer have any physical bodies.

1. Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water and cool my tongue because I am in agony in this fire.

How is the rich man thirsty if he has no body? I could also ask how he could be in agony in fire if he has no body, but no one seems to see the problem with this. If it were to happen after judgement day, it would sort of make sense as everyone is resurrected to be judged. However, this clearly takes place before judgement day as the rich man asks Abraham (not God) to tell his family about the pain of being in Hades.

Why do you assume that the spirit and soul do not have a bodily existence of their own? 1 Corinthians 15:44 speaks of a spirit body with physicality after the resurrection. Prior to the resurrection it has no physicality, but there is still a spirit body.

2. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.

If this chasm is literal, I assume its some sort of great hole or distance between where the rich man is and where Abraham and Lazarus are. Why would a great distance separate them? If the rich man and Lazarus do not have physical bodies, what keeps them separated? If they do have physical bodies, how is this even possible prior to judgement day?

Heaven is up and Hell is down in an extradimensional way (commonly called today the astral dimension). That is the chasm--way up vs. way down.

Those are the two most obvious problems that arise from looking at the story literally, to me anyways.

Dismissing the literal interpretation for either of these objections (which I think are very weak) does not get you any closer to an allegorical explanation. It is not good enough simply to find objections to a literal interpretation, in order to give strong evidence of an allegorical interpretation one must have at least some form of allegory that one can point to. What IS the allegorical meaning? You have none, you are making objections that would replace the literal interpretation with a vacuum of meaning. You might as well be arguing that Luke 16:19-31 is pure garbage. That would be a far more logically consistent point of view than claiming that it is allegory, which is completely illogical.

If people are "asleep" until judgement day, then the story of Lazarus and the rich man cannot take place. There is one verse that says "To be absent of body is to be present with God", but there is also a verse that says "David still sleeps with his fathers."

Being asleep does not mean total unconsciousness, the dream state is very definitely a form of consciousness. It is a different form of consciousness, but it is most definitely not total unconsciousness the way you are interpreting it here.

There's also the whole judgement day thing and the dead being risen from their graves. Which is true if they're both supposed to be literal?

I don't understand how it is that you are seeing any contradiction here at all?

My other question about spirit was basically asking this. Is spirit your source of strength, or is it a part of your existence. In other words, if God were to rip out our spirit and put it someone else (this is purely a what if scenario, I'm not asking if its proven or not in the Bible), how would this affect you and the other person that now has your spirit? Basically, what does your spirit do for you? What is it to you?

The spirit is an integral part of your mind. What you are asking is like asking what if you surgically removed your frontal lobe and put it into someone else's head. Who knows what would happen other than the obvious fact that it would be really messed up.

If spirit is a source of your strength and life, then there's a good reason why spiritual death is not mentioned; its because its not who you are but what strengthens you. Without spirit, you are the computer hardware and the OS, waiting to be powered up. In other words, when body and soul die, you are essentially no more. Your spirit goes back to God, but its not really you anymore.

If spirit is a part of who you are identity wise, then what is soul? What is the spirit part of you? Why would the spirit be tortured in some fashion eternally but not the body and soul?

According to Hebrews 4:12 the spirit and the soul are difficult to distinguish. I think that you have enough trouble understanding the real nature of spirit without trying to get into the fine details of what differentiates soul from spirit. You would have to be able to understand how I view spirit for my views on the difference between soul and spirit to be worth delving into.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Heaven being upwards and Hell being downwards is obviously metaphorical, in my own opinion. When you are atop a mountain, you see everything for what it is, whereas in a trench, you see nothing. You remain in this realm and die by your sins, buried in the ground where the worm never dies and where the fire of sin is never quenched.

I believe Hell is simply death. The Gospel doesn't seem to indicate God being malevolent to that extent. Fiery hell is quite vain and unnecessary, and how does someone go to Heaven knowing that some are in eternal flame? I do not accept that.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Originally Posted by LutheranMafia
What does that mean, for the spirit but not for the soul? The only sense I can get out of that sentence is that the spirit is OSAS but the soul is not, but I don't think that is what you meant.
​

You understood correctly. I believe we are triune beings and all three parts have to be saved. I believe that when one first comes to God it is their spirit that is born again or saved. After spirit salvation you being "working out the salvation of the soul with fear and trembling" throughout your life on earth. Body salvation is last of all when we receive our saved, or glorified, bodies.

OK, that makes some sense to me. It works its way down from the highest level to the lowest level. In the terms I just mentioned I can agree with you.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The spirit is "born of the Spirit"/God and it must be "born again/from above" eg saved.

Once born 'from above' it cannot be unborn or lost...eg OSAS. Some will have their "predestined", "called", "fore ordained to believe" spirit salvation, in this age. Others won't receive that 'call' until their appointed time. Those spirits who disobeyed in the time of Noah received their "gospel" when it was preached to them in prison by Jesus ages later.

I believe in predestination or as the Greek defines it 'predetermination'. That being the case then I have to believe that God will not predestine/predetermine some for annihilation and others for eternal torture. In the "fullness of times" or ages Christ will unite all things (creation) 'in Him'.

I'm going to address this paragraph in a separate post because this is an ongoing disagreement that we've had and I need to do more research for my argument.

Basically, I am a calvinist when it comes to spirit salvation and I am armenianist when it comes to soul salvation. Of all the theological views I've ever looked at this POV just works best for me. It still leaves unanswered questions, but for me personally there are less than with other views.

Be nice to me now.

I disagree that it is a matter of a soul vs spirit distinction. I think the essential distinction between Armenian and Calvinist soteriology is really a matter of man's POV vs. God's POV. From God's POV everything is predestined: God knows absolutely who will be saved and who will not and when they will be saved if they are to be saved. From man's POV nothing is certain, salvation requires great effort on our part, a lot of uncertainty, it involves a very real risk of faliure and we have a very hard time telling the difference between the wheat and the tares.

I don't see how you can make this a soul vs. spirit distinction, however. I see it as a God vs. man distinction.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Heaven being upwards and Hell being downwards is obviously metaphorical, in my own opinion. When you are atop a mountain, you see everything for what it is, whereas in a trench, you see nothing.

I had an experience once, I woke up in the middle of the night feeling like I was blasting off on a rocket ship. I had a dramatically vivid sensation of accelerating upwards even though I wasn't physically moving. As I ascended everything in my room got whiter and whiter, shimmering with white radiance. After a certain point I reached a peak of altitude and I felt something inside me scrambling and clawing out to grab hold of anything to hold on to, but there was nothing solid to hold me at this altitude. It was Heaven and some part of me desperately wanted to stay at that altitude. Inexorably I began to fall, and the shimmering white got dimmer and dimmer until for just a moment everything was back to normal (almost pitch black). But I continued to sink and then everything started shimmering brighter and brighter red and I felt as though I were under great pressure as if I were underwater. As the downward acceleration slowed down and I reached the bottom I remember thinking with some trepidation "I hope I don't get stuck here!" but yet at the same time thinking, this really isn't so bad.

The astral plain is really and anyone with experience with the "lower astral" knows that it is red and that the "higher astral" are the "planes of [white] light". In modern physics, superstring theory requires that addition of many extra dimensions. I know from personal experience that at least one of them is an extra physical dimension that has an absolute bias that is analgous to the relative bias of gravity (i.e., the astral plane is entirely composed of an absolute up and down, whereas in the physical 3D dimensions up and down is relative to the direction of a gravitational well).

You remain in this realm and die by your sins, buried in the ground where the worm never dies and where the fire of sin is never quenched.

I believe Hell is simply death. The Gospel doesn't seem to indicate God being malevolent to that extent. Fiery hell is quite vain and unnecessary, and how does someone go to Heaven knowing that some are in eternal flame? I do not accept that.

I can’t relate, punishing Hitler with the worst imaginable punishment is just to my mind. Quite to the contrary, letting people like that go scott free would suggest to me that the universe is demonic rather than divine.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So what about 1 Samuel 28:15? None of this addresses my question.

Some people teach that it was not the spirit of Samuel, but a familiar spirit of the devil, since this was a witch who was conjuring up the spirit.

If that were the case why doesn’t the Bible say that it was a demon? It does not, it says plainly and specifically that it was Samuel.

It is my opinion that Paul answered that question:

3:11For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory. 3:12Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness of speech, 3:13and are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look stedfastly on the end of that which was passing away: 3:14but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.

What is done away? The old covenant(the Torah) and everything that goes with it, and the reading of it invites a veil over our faces.

I don’t see how 2 Corinthians 3:11-14 says anything at all about there being no afterlife.

John was begotten by the World through a woman, Elizabeth; and Christ was begotten by the world through a virgin, Mary. What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age, but Christ passed through a virgin's womb. When she had conceived, she gave birth to the Savior. Furthermore, she was found to be a virgin again. Why, then do you (pl.) err and not seek after these mysteries, which were prefigured for our sake? ~Testimony of Truth

I told you all of that, just so you could understand what I meant when I told you this:

"Everything that came from the perishable will perish, since it came from the perishable. But whatever came from imperishableness does not perish but becomes imperishable. So, many men went astray because they had not known this difference and they died." (the permanent death) ~ Sophia of Jesus

I don’t see how this is claiming that there is no spirit existence after death. It doesn’t say that at all.

Every culture has had experience with ghosts or shades. They are an unexplained reality. Nobody knows what they are, though some claim to. If you examine their claims carefully, it is just belief or speculation.

First of all, ghosts are only spirits that are “trapped between dimensions”, not able or not willing to make the transition to the Heavenly planes. It is only speculation in the absence of experience. I have extensive experience with spirits after death, it is just something that runs in my family to be sensitive to the presence of the dead. I could give you endless stories but if you haven’t had experiences of your own then it is meaningless to you, there is no substitute for personal experience when it comes to spiritual phenomena.

However, I believe that what comes from the perishable perishes--- Matter, sin, desire, etc. What is left is that which comes from God, and that is why we cultivate it. Wars are fought over dirt. Spirits are beyond such mundane concerns.

That depends on their state. If they can make it to the Heavenly planes (i.e. their spirit is light and buoyant) then this is true. If not then this is not true.

 

[Hillsage]

Well there you go. You are basing your assumption that it was a demon on your religious belief.

That's the paradigm I live in and evaluate things through.

You don't know. Could have been a p+ssed off angel having a bad day.

And speaking from my paradigm this doesn't appear to be an option I'd easily gravitate to.

Could have been a ghost just trying to get your attention.

By ghost, what do you mean? IOW does that differ from a demon, or do you mean a human spirit???

Could have been an inter dimensional wild animal attack.

WAAAAY out of my paradigm and certainly doesn't line up with what I 'believe' I experienced IMO. And by 'believe', I don't mean I think I imagined what happened.

There are all kinds of could have beens, but, and I'm not picking on you, you picked an explanation that matches your beliefs.

Correct. Isn't that what Christians are supposed to do? And I think that anyone who hasn't had something supernatural is walking in a religion that is superficial. No offense meant by that. But my experience has been that the devil doesn't manifest supernaturally into this realm unless there is something at stake. Most are exactly where he wants them relative to the supernatural IMO. I speak that to my own condemnation, because it has been quite a while since I have had anything similar happen.

Someone else might have chalked it up to "a bit of bad potato".

Not the experiences I've had. No one could say it was just too much pizza. What happened to me is what makes 'non believers' of the supernatural 'believers'.

It's better just to say what the experience was, without trying to produce

an explanation.

You mean like, 'just say the doctrine don't try to defend it.' That's simply not reality is it? And it is part of my testimony, and falls within the paradigm of the bible experiences

But this is all way off topic.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I can’t relate, punishing Hitler with the worst imaginable punishment is just to my mind. Quite to the contrary, letting people like that go scott free would suggest to me that the universe is demonic rather than divine.

Nothing is worthy of eternal torment, not even Hitler.
The very idea is completely absurd, and is more pagan then biblical.

There is literally nothing a human being is capable of doing that merits burning alive forever. Even if someone builds a nuclear missile for ever square mile of the Earth and fires them away, it is still not worth such.

The idea of Hell is a wishful aspect of revenge for evil, and the idea is too much. It's just ridiculous, actually. Dying is punishment enough. You simply just seize along with your monstrosities.

 

[Hillsage]

If that were the case why doesn’t the Bible say that it was a demon? It does not, it says plainly and specifically that it was Samuel.

I agree, but contextually she was a medium and did what Saul asked...'biblically' speaking.

1SA 28:8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you."

She brought up a demonic familiar spirit via the familiar spirit she herself contacted the spiritual realm through. I believe that a demonic spirit is assigned to each of us for hour entire life, just like we have a 'guardian angel' for our entire life. Those spirits know 'all' concerning us because they were there.

You may not like this point but I'm just sharing my POV; I believe that when someone is supposedly taken 'back' to a former life...they really are only hearing what their familiar spirit experienced when he was assigned to someone who lived before he got your assignment. The fact that it goes by the name of 'whoever' is simply part of the lying spirit nature of the demonic.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I believe in predestination or as the Greek defines it 'predetermination'. That being the case then I have to believe that God will not predestine/predetermine some for annihilation and others for eternal torture. In the "fullness of times" or ages Christ will unite all things (creation) 'in Him'.

But you are not in [given up to the power of] darkness, brethren, for that day to overtake you by surprise like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we do not belong either to the night or to darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
​

Some people have spirits that are fundamentally different from ours, their spirit is actually made of darkness rather than of Light. We are children of God but Satan has children too, and their spirits are made of darkness rather than of Light:

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:10

Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Acts 13:9-10

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
John 8:44
​

Their fate is to be thrown away:

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Matthew 13:48-49
​

 

[LutheranMafia]

I agree, but contextually she was a medium and did what Saul asked...'biblically' speaking.

1SA 28:8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, "Divine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you."

She brought up a demonic familiar spirit via the familiar spirit she herself contacted the spiritual realm through. I believe that a demonic spirit is assigned to each of us for hour entire life, just like we have a 'guardian angel' for our entire life. Those spirits know 'all' concerning us because they were there.

I certainly agree that we all have demons assigned to us, but unlike angels, demons can be destroyed. So it isn't necessarily the same demon that is assigned to us our entire life. Infact, if you are spiritually successful you will have a whole menagerie of demons parade through your life at various times as each successive wave gets blown away.

But let me get you straight here, you do not believe in an afterlife?

You may not like this point but I'm just sharing my POV; I believe that when someone is supposedly taken 'back' to a former life...they really are only hearing what their familiar spirit experienced when he was assigned to someone who lived before he got your assignment. The fact that it goes by the name of 'whoever' is simply part of the lying spirit nature of the demonic.

Now you are talking about reincarnation rather than the afterlife? That is a separate topic, but as for myself, I had an extremely vivid dream about my death experience in my previous incarnation, and going to Heavenly bliss immediately after the terror of dying without certainty of an afterlife. The incredible bliss that I experenced, and believing that the experience is real, is the whole reason I became a deist after 9 years of atheism in my youth. What you are arguing is, inadvertantly, that I should give up believing in the only experience that bolsters my belief in God. The unintended thrust of your argument is that I should go back to my atheism before I believed that was a real experience of Heaven.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Nothing is worthy of eternal torment, not even Hitler.
The very idea is completely absurd, and is more pagan then biblical.

It is entirely Biblical:

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

So even aftering dying the second death (the death of the soul) their is still their indestructible spirit which wanders in the Outer Darkness for eternity. How is this pagan?

There is literally nothing a human being is capable of doing that merits burning alive forever. Even if someone builds a nuclear missile for ever square mile of the Earth and fires them away, it is still not worth such.

The idea of Hell is a wishful aspect of revenge for evil, and the idea is too much. It's just ridiculous, actually. Dying is punishment enough. You simply just seize along with your monstrosities.

Soul death is spoken of a number of times in both the OT and the NT, and yet not once is there ever a mention of spirit death. Spirit is indestructible according to the Bible. But from my experience it can become very brittle and shattered, the shards flighing off towards infinity in every direction. However, this is my own personal experience and there is no way to use that as an argument, there is no substitute for personal experience. All I can do is point to this one verse in the Bible that hints at astronomical wandering in darkness out beyond the quasars. And there is this verse which more than hints at the splintering of brittle dark spirits:

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51
​

Note that there are 7 verse that speak of weeping and gnashing of teeth, two speak of a blazing furnace and three speak of the Outer Darkness (as paralleled by Jude 1:13).

 

[Sum1sGruj]

It is entirely Biblical:

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13
​

So even aftering dying the second death (the death of the soul) their is still their indestructible spirit which wanders in the Outer Darkness for eternity. How is this pagan?

Soul death is spoken of a number of times in both the OT and the NT, and yet not once is there ever a mention of spirit death. Spirit is indestructible according to the Bible. But from my experience it can become very brittle and shattered, the shards flighing off towards infinity in every direction. However, this is my own personal experience and there is no way to use that as an argument, there is no substitute for personal experience. All I can do is point to this one verse in the Bible that hints at astronomical wandering in darkness out beyond the quasars. And there is this verse which more than hints at the splintering of brittle dark spirits:

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51
​

Note that there are 7 verse that speak of weeping and gnashing of teeth, two speak of a blazing furnace and three speak of the Outer Darkness (as paralleled by Jude 1:13).

And how does any of this unequivocally mean eternal flame and torment? Like I said, it is wishful thinking.

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13

Seems like death to me. It sure does not seem like fiery pit of torture and flame. Whether the soul fragments or not is obsolete, as the soul would be obvious. Dead.

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51

And this sounds much like a funeral, and in which the soul is forever attached by the sins it never reconciled. Much like how a hypocrite does not reconcile their own actions they speak against.


Why anyone would even accept or endorse such a thing as this pagan hell surely has a hidden agenda. You should look back at the orthodoxy of the idea and see how and why this concept was produced in the first place. It may help you to understand why it is a common concept, however likely untrue.

 

[LutheranMafia]

And how does any of this unequivocally mean eternal flame and torment? Like I said, it is wishful thinking.

There is a clear association between the Outer Darkness referred to in Jude 1 and the fires of Hell:

1. Matthew 8:12
   but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
   
2. Matthew 13:42
   and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
   
3. Matthew 13:50
   and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
   
4. Matthew 22:13
   Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
   
5. Matthew 24:51
   and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
   
6. Matthew 25:30
   Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

..twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
​

Seems like death to me. It sure does not seem like fiery pit of torture and flame. Whether the soul fragments or not is obsolete, as the soul would be obvious. Dead.

Wandering is not death. There is nothing about the Outer Darkness that indicates a cessation of existence. Indeed wandering forever implies a perpetual existence.

He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 24:51

And this sounds much like a funeral, and in which the soul is forever attached by the sins it never reconciled.

While the Bible speaks of soul death, it does not speak of spirit death.

Much like how a hypocrite does not reconcile their own actions they speak against.

How does that imply annihilation of the spirit?

Why anyone would even accept or endorse such a thing as this pagan hell surely has a hidden agenda.

Then you must think the New Testament to be hopelessly pagan?

You should look back at the orthodoxy of the idea and see how and why this concept was produced in the first place. It may help you to understand why it is a common concept, however likely untrue.

Now you sound like Hilsage and Timothew riling against orthodoxy. From my experience orthodox denominations like the Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Catholics are head and shoulders above the heterodoxical riff raff of Christianity who have fabricated their own beliefs as they went along with only loose association with the Bible. Most of the heterodoxical denominations only came into being within the hundred or hundred and fifty years and are infinitely more influenced by Johnny come lately beliefs than orthodox denominations.

 

[Hillsage]

But you are not in [given up to the power of] darkness, brethren, for that day to overtake you by surprise like a thief. For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we do not belong either to the night or to darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
​

Some people have spirits that are fundamentally different from ours, their spirit is actually made of darkness rather than of Light. We are children of God but Satan has children too, and their spirits are made of darkness rather than of Light:

To me the difference is our spirit is born again/saved and theirs isn't yet. That's what makes them "given up to the power" of the devil and what makes us "given up to the power" of God.

By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:10

Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?
Acts 13:9-10

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.
John 8:44

You've quoted these scriptures before, but we see them differently. I believe God is the Father of all spirits and those spirits need to be born again. Being 'of the devil' just means your actions indicate who you're following and not who created you. IOW, God is not the Father of 'some' spirits...He is the Father of 'all' spirits...I think.

HEB 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

The verse above indicates it is our choice to be subject to the Father or not. And our actions reveal 'the Father of those actions' IMO. It does not indicate being 'born' with the devil as our Father. God is the possessor of all and scripture even says "all souls are mine".
​

Their fate is to be thrown away:

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
Matthew 13:48-49
​

But the context doesn't say people are "thrown away", but "into the furnace of fire".

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And I believe that the 'furnace' they are thrown into, serves no different purpose than the purgative furnaces and fires of God which we endure here and now in this age. That's just a universalism 101 POV which I know you don't have. Below are verses supportive of what I'm saying.

1KI 8:51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:

Isaiah 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Potatos are like the Borg? Resistance is futile.

I was drunk as hell when I wrote that, so it was a little off, but yes! Feral animal spirits are not at all unlike the Borg. They are a collective generic sort of spirit where every lion spirit is just another generic lion spirit exactly the same as all others, and feral animal spirits know nothing of love. All they know is brute force and might-makes-right. And if you can really see them you would be aware of the inky blackness of their spirit substance. They are utterly alien to loving and compassionate humans. So I have to agree that really is a very apt analogy.

One of the few exceptions to this are wolves. Wolves aren't so far removed from dogs who are so obviously full of compassion and love. And I once saw on a nature documentary the only completely non-human example of inter-species compassion coming from wolves: a small wolf pack (3 wolves) had downed an elk when a mama bear with three cubs showed up. The pack let her eat without harassing her and instead played with her cubs, running up to sniff them and then pretending to run away from the cubs when the cubs charged. They let the cubs chase them around for an extended period of time, all three wolves, each one pairing off with a cub. But then a male bear appeared. The mama bear immediately fled with her cubs because an adult male bear will promptly kill any bear cub that he can get his hands on. When the male bear got up to the kill thinking he could get his fill too, the three wolves suddenly blitzkrieged him, circling him with each one bighting his rear as they got behind him. In less than 5 seconds they had him fleeing as fast as he could run. They clearly could have sent the much smaller mother packing if they had wanted to but they tolerated her with compassion.

They aren't the only spirits of light in the animal kingdom, parrots are another signficant example. Some cats have spirits of light too. But I think the above example demonstrates why the bond between humans and dogs goes back 150,000 years as opposed to only 10,000 years between cats and humans. I'm not a horse person, but I've had a touching moment with a horse even so, and a lot of them clearly have spirits of light too, which explains why the human/horse bond goes back 20,000 years. We only make lifelong bonds with animal spirits of light.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

I believe in a makeshift purgatory, but nothing like the orthodox idea. I believe that many of those things are one's struggle after death to make into the light. And if they do not make it, they wither away until they are oblivious in oblivion.
All those verses can directly imply that, though the orthodox version of purgatory implies a more mandatory suffering.

I believe that to go for non-Christians who did not commit blasphemy against God. Those that do wither immediately.

That is my theology, and there is a lot of gears in it's workings. It's not something I just whipped out of shallow thought such as this pagan hell that just about any other religion with an idea of hell shares.

 

[LutheranMafia]

To me the difference is our spirit is born again/saved and theirs isn't yet. That's what makes them "given up to the power" of the devil and what makes us "given up to the power" of God.

They are "children" of Satan as opposed to children of God. When you turn a light on it always creates shadows. God is the father of all spirits but, "the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it [put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is unreceptive to it]."

Being 'of the devil' just means your actions indicate who you're following and not who created you.

To be the child of something means that you were created by that something.

IOW, God is not the Father of 'some' spirits...He is the Father of 'all' spirits...I think.

Just as turning on a light creates shadows. But the shadows are not of the light.

It does not indicate being 'born' with the devil as our Father.

But there are numerous other verses that clearly indicate that Satan is the father of dark spirits. Obviously, without the light there could be no shadows, all would be uniform darkness. Never the less, shadows are not of the light.

God is the possessor of all and scripture even says "all souls are mine".

Read the whole verse:

Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.
​

The Bible is speaking in that paternalistic manner, "I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

But the context doesn't say people are "thrown away", but "into the furnace of fire".

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

But they are being thrown out into the Outer Darkness where they will "wander... for eternity".

And I believe that the 'furnace' they are thrown into, serves no different purpose than the purgative furnaces and fires of God which we endure here and now in this age. That's just a universalism 101 POV which I know you don't have. Below are verses supportive of what I'm saying.

1KI 8:51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:

Isaiah 31:9 And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his furnace in Jerusalem.

Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

These are all Old Testament references to furnaces at a time when the Jews had no notion of Hellfire. They were thinking of the tempering of metal. Funny how the New Testament never compares Hell-fire to the tempering of metal.