Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Timothew]

I just read this passage:

"Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit..."

Was Paul able to leave his body and astral travel to Corinth? This is really spooky. Hang on to your spirits folks, so they don't float off.

 

[he-man]

What do you think 'spirit' is in the bible?

There are many spirits, so you must know the context of the verse. Which verse do you want to discuss?

7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath <H5397> of life, and the man became a living creature.
Gen 2:7 (ESV)

17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath <H7307> of life under heaven.
Gen 6:17 (ESV)

They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath <H7307> of life.
Gen 7:15 (ESV)

H7307 &#1493;&#1512;&#1493;&#1495; Breath of Life; wind; spirit, soul, nous; air; direction; ghost, fantom, genie, hobgoblin, imp, incubus, jinn, jinni , kobold, phantom, shade

H5397 from <H5395> (nasham); a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect, or (concrete) an animal :- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
&#8212;Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

G4151 pneuma &#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945; esprit, ghost, humor, humor [Brit.], wit, spirit;
&#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;
manes, spirits of the underworld,
Hades, god of the underworld &#900;
Manes also means metaphorically &#8216;underworld&#8217; or &#8216;realm of death&#8217;.

H178 familiar spirit
H3049 wizard

 

[Mikecpking]

There are many spirits, so you must know the context of the verse. Which verse do you want to discuss?

7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath <H5397> of life, and the man became a living creature.
Gen 2:7 (ESV)

17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath <H7307> of life under heaven.
Gen 6:17 (ESV)

They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath <H7307> of life.
Gen 7:15 (ESV)

H7307 &#1493;&#1512;&#1493;&#1495; Breath of Life; wind; spirit, soul, nous; air; direction; ghost, fantom, genie, hobgoblin, imp, incubus, jinn, jinni , kobold, phantom, shade

H5397 from <H5395> (nasham); a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect, or (concrete) an animal :- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
—Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

G4151 pneuma &#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945; esprit, ghost, humor, humor [Brit.], wit, spirit;
&#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#960;&#957;&#949;&#973;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#962;
manes, spirits of the underworld,
Hades, god of the underworld &#900;
Manes also means metaphorically ‘underworld’ or ‘realm of death’.

H178 familiar spirit
H3049 wizard

Indeed, the spirit is the breath of life. It is not an immaterial part of a person.

 

[createdtoworship]

Indeed, the spirit is the breath of life. It is not an immaterial part of a person.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7)

 

[he-man]

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7)

There are many spirits, so you must know the context of the verse; for example:

Joh 3:8 The wind <G4151> blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit <G4151>."

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind
<H7307> , prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind <H7307>, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds <H7307>, O breath <H7307>, and breathe <H5301> upon these slain, that they may live.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath <H5397> is in me, and the spirit <H7307> of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4 The Spirit <H7307> of God hath made me, and the breath <H5397> of the Almighty hath given me life.

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit <H7307> in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I don't think that I am afraid of a spirit existence. I think that a spirit existence (if there is such a thing) would be less than a physical existence. After Jesus rose from the grave, He was able to eat with the disciples. In Luke 24:39, Jesus assures the disciples that He is actual flesh and not just a spirit. If He is raised in a physical body, and He is the fruitfruits of all who are resurrected, why shouldn't we also expect to be raised in a physical body?

I believe in the resurrection, but in the mean time we die physically and our spirits go to Heaven or Hell. If we go to Heaven then we experience something that makes physical existence utteraly pale by comparison. I've been to Heaven and nothing in the physical world can come even remotely close to comparing. You think of being a spirit as a disadvantage, but that is a false assumption.

As to being resurrected as a physical body, 1 Corinthians 15:44 says:

...it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:44
​

So the resurrection will be the best of both worlds, with all the benefits of a spirit being and all the benefits of a physical being.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Indeed, the spirit is the breath of life. It is not an immaterial part of a person.

It is immaterial. We breath with it, yes, and without it the body stops breathing and consciousness separates from the physical body. Spirit is not a material object, that is absurd.

 

[he-man]

I believe in the resurrection, but in the mean time we die physically and our spirits go to Heaven or Hell. I've been to Heaven and nothing in the physical world can come even remotely close to comparing..
.

The Bible does not agree with you NO MAN has ascended to heaven not even David!

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit <H7307> in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[createdtoworship]

There are many spirits, so you must know the context of the verse; for example:

Joh 3:8 The wind <G4151> blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit <G4151>."

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind
<H7307> , prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind <H7307>, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds <H7307>, O breath <H7307>, and breathe <H5301> upon these slain, that they may live.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath <H5397> is in me, and the spirit <H7307> of God is in my nostrils;

Job 33:4 The Spirit <H7307> of God hath made me, and the breath <H5397> of the Almighty hath given me life.

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit <H7307> in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

the breath of life is similar to physical life which leaves at death, however

"The rational spirit, mind element of life. Generally, spirit distinct from the body and soul. See also Luke 1:47; Heb 4:12. Soul and spirit are very closely related because they are both immaterial and they both contrast with body(soma [4983]) and flesh (sarx [4951])."

greek dictionary goes on to say spirit and soul are not the same

"they cannot mean the same thing is evident from their mention together in 1 Thess 5:23, spirit , soul , body. The same distinction is brought out in Heb 4:12. ...The difference between soul and spirit is not one of substance but of operation."

 

[Truth_Warrior]

I've been to Heaven and nothing in the physical world can come even remotely close to comparing.

I guess you and Jesus are the only ones who have seen heaven.

IMHO you may have experienced something but it surely was NOT heaven.

This verse was recently quoted but its STILL true

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,eventhe Son of man which is in heaven.

If I weigh what you say with Gods Word your statement comes up short..........very short indeed

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Bible does not agree with you NO MAN has ascended to heaven not even David!

David was guilty of murder, so it is not surprising that he is not in Heaven.

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,eventhe Son of man which is in heaven.

This is the only verse you quote that has any relevance to the subject. How does this compare with Luke 23:43?

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 23:43
​

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit <H7307> in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

None of these verses have anything to do with the subject you are attempting to address.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I guess you and Jesus are the only ones who have seen heaven.

IMHO you may have experienced something but it surely was NOT heaven.

This verse was recently quoted but its STILL true

Joh 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,eventhe Son of man which is in heaven.

The key word in John 3:13 is ascended. Jesus physically ascended into Heaven. But Luke 23:43 makes it clear that Jesus is not all by himself in Heaven.

If I weigh what you say with Gods Word your statement comes up short..........very short indeed

If you focus on one verse and take it out of context you can make your own religion too, that is why there are 3000 denominations of Christianity, because of people doing exactly what you are doing. It is a commonly known fact that when people have Near Death Experiences, they usually go down a vast tunnel towards a light and are in a state of profound bliss once they enter the light. The Word of God does not contradict common human experience, it is you who are mistaken about what John 3:13 means and are completely ignoring Luke 23:43.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I created a new thread/poll on GT: http://www.christianforums.com/t7594539/ Is disbelief in an afterlife atheistic?

 

[Truth_Warrior]

The key word in John 3:13 is ascended. Jesus physically ascended into Heaven. But Luke 23:43 makes it clear that Jesus is not all by himself in Heaven.

If you focus on one verse and take it out of context you can make your own religion too, that is why there are 3000 denominations of Christianity, because of people doing exactly what you are doing. It is a commonly known fact that when people have Near Death Experiences, they usually go down a vast tunnel towards a light and are in a state of profound bliss once they enter the light. The Word of God does not contradict common human experience, it is you who are mistaken about what John 3:13 means and are completely ignoring Luke 23:43.

First of all in the verse you are referencing, if you are saying that that very day the thief would be with Jesus in heaven you are wrong.

Jesus was in the grave 3 days and then 40 more days on earth so it was not that day was it?

secondly Jesus did not say heaven, he said Paradise.

No place in scripture does it say Paradise is anywhere but on earth.

Either Jesus was lying to the thief or you and millions of others are mistaken and led astray by a a single solitary comma in a single solitary verse in a vast multitude of scripture.

If the comma in the verse is left as is then Jesus lied and therefore sinned after all the time on earth of not sinning.

Comma's were added by man and can alter what is said.



Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


as it reads here Jesus lied.



as it reads in the same verse moving the comma Jesus did not sin..............

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.


You say I am taking one verse out of context then you yourself take one verse out of context. really?


I don't believe any person has seen anything but a vision if I align what people experience with Gods Word as it applies to death experiences and they were in fact not dead in a biblical sense.

It is good for all of us to know something about the first-century Gnostic controversy, because this controversy continues to this very day, though in a different form.

Gnosticism, and its cousin Neoplatonism (or Platonism), changed the face of Christianity by introducing ideas that have more affinity with pagan religions and philosophies than with the Judeo-Christian heritage represented by the Bible. This influence moved the Church away from its Hebrew heritage, let us get back to Gods Word and purge Christianity of pagan views.

 

[LutheranMafia]

First of all in the verse you are referencing, if you are saying that that very day the thief would be with Jesus in heaven you are wrong.

Jesus was in the grave 3 days and then 40 more days on earth so it was not that day was it?

I think Jesus went to Heaven first, and then decsended into Hell for three days. So no, I don't think it was a lie.

secondly Jesus did not say heaven, he said Paradise.

No place in scripture does it say Paradise is anywhere but on earth.

Where does it say that?

Either Jesus was lying to the thief or you and millions of others are mistaken and led astray by a a single solitary comma in a single solitary verse in a vast multitude of scripture.

If the comma in the verse is left as is then Jesus lied and therefore sinned after all the time on earth of not sinning.

Comma's were added by man and can alter what is said.



Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


as it reads here Jesus lied.



as it reads in the same verse moving the comma Jesus did not sin..............

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Are you a student of Greek? I have never met a real divinity graduate who believes as you do.

You say I am taking one verse out of context then you yourself take one verse out of context. really?


I don't believe any person has seen anything but a vision if I align what people experience with Gods Word as it applies to death experiences and they were in fact not dead in a biblical sense.

It is good for all of us to know something about the first-century Gnostic controversy, because this controversy continues to this very day, though in a different form.

Gnosticism, and its cousin Neoplatonism (or Platonism), changed the face of Christianity by introducing ideas that have more affinity with pagan religions and philosophies than with the Judeo-Christian heritage represented by the Bible. This influence moved the Church away from its Hebrew heritage, let us get back to Gods Word and purge Christianity of pagan views.

You sound to me like Pagan non-Christians who hark on the supposed Pagan influences in Christianity. Are you Pagan or are you Christian?

 

[Truth_Warrior]

I think Jesus went to Heaven first, and then decsended into Hell for three days. So no, I don't think it was a lie.

Where does it say that?

Are you a student of Greek? I have never met a real divinity graduate who believes as you do.


You sound to me like Pagan non-Christians who hark on the supposed Pagan influences in Christianity. Are you Pagan or are you Christian?

Just a Christian who can read whats written.

If it makes you feel better to bash instead of debate,that is up to you.

There is no place that places Paradise in heaven, its on earth everywhere its used.(The question is not "where does it say that?" but rather "where does it say Paradise is anywhere but earth?")


If you want to debate me on whether pagan influences are in traditional Christianity I will be happy to do so but you are naive if you think there are none.


IMHO if you follow traditional mainline Christianity, you follow more pagan influence by far than I do and you don't even realize it.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

I think Jesus went to Heaven first, and then decsended into Hell for three days. quote]


What you think means nothing.

Prove that Jesus went to heaven first,not what you think.

If I say I think Jesus went to Starbucks first does not make it so.

 

[x141]

The story is not literal. The five brothers are the five senses. They will not listen hear or see the Truth. his parable needs to be viewed through the previous verses about the law concerning husband and wife. Just as the woman at the well ... she had five husbands and the husband she had now was not her own .....

 

[x141]

We think in a ' this can't happen till this happens mode' God is I am. To Nicodemus he said he, the son of man which is in heaven ...

 

[x141]

I don't mean to offend, but this bit about paradise, heaven etc. is manna kept over a day. Full of worms, earthly sensual deceptive. This is not pasture and Christ has not led you hear. There is only one thing on the menu ... Lamb.