Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Lord Herdsetk]

I think that for your ordinary everyday sinner,which we all are in one way or other there will be 'purgatories',places situations of correction,with time to learn and repent,but some have lost all connection to their likeness to
their Creator.Having followed the other one,they are no longer human,and cannot be redeemed. I am very much against the teaching of us being created at birth for that reason.It causes many problems if we were 'created 'at birth ,which are solved by realising that we have been around for some time. If you read some stuff which we can find on the internet nowadays,it is mind boggling the depth and breadth of evil of so called human beings,things that no normal sinner could even have imagined.
I am not talking of the diversions of terrorist threats,but of the people in power in the west,who think they are 'gods' and untouchable.Those will I hope, and similiar, will be removed from contaminating life in heaven for those whom they have plotted against, for so long.And if you believe in God as you say you do, you wil know that He will not condemn for eternity ,if there is any chance of recovery,but some are unrecoverable .

Well, here's an interesting thought to chew on. Let's say God takes those people who think they are gods and untouchable and punishes them according to their works. Can God restore even the most wicked of men? Is it possible for God? Can those people be broken down to the point that they will repent of their evil ways?

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, here's an interesting thought to chew on. Let's say God takes those people who think they are gods and untouchable and punishes them according to their works. Can God restore even the most wicked of men? Is it possible for God? Can those people be broken down to the point that they will repent of their evil ways?

God will never violate free will of men

 

[he-man]

Well, here's an interesting thought to chew on. Let's say God takes those people who think they are gods and untouchable and punishes them according to their works. Can God restore even the most wicked of men? Is it possible for God? Can those people be broken down to the point that they will repent of their evil ways?

It would be well for you to consider the following :
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Mat 25:
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Likewise the door will be shut if you think Saved or rescued people go to heaven. Heaven will be right here on Earth.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

“The kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.” (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27)

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Luke 24: 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them

22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.


Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh:[Jehovah to see to it] as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

And for the unbelieving ones


Mr 4:18 And others are those being sown into the prickle, these are those having heard the word,
19 But the cares of this time period, and the nonsense and the causes that make one yearn concerning wealth, hence together, they suffocate the word and it becomes unfruitful.

29 "But when the fruit is delivered, at once he sends away for the sickle, to stand before the harvest."

Lu 3:17 His winnowing-spade in his hand, he will will gather the seed1 into his repository through purging and cleaning his floor, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
1* Greek σείτος σιτάρι seed; cereal; wheat


Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

God will never violate free will of men

Where does the Bible talk about that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

My problem is with the punishment itself, not the idea of punishment. Why is it good for God to punish people without end? That's ultimately what I've been asking since the beginning. If there is no hope, there is no point to punishing something. God's punishment was to correct His people in the Old Testament, not because God hated His people.

Also, how was my sentence a run on, and how was I yelling? Am I yelling in emotional frustration as a juxtaposition to yourself calmly speaking facts? Should I spew forth pretentious, flowery prose in order to show that I am capable rational thought in this conversation? Should I wait until I'm your age until I am capable to be speaking about eternity, or would I still be too young as I will always be 22 years younger than you. I know you are condescending towards me on account of my age, but I believe I have perfectly valid questions regardless of my age. We all cannot grasp what forever will be like.

Should I accept that God will torture some people forever without end? Is that good news? Its not for those receiving the torture, and for those whose loved ones are those being tortured.

Good post

Is that richman and those with being tortured for eternity?

This commentator has an interesting exposition on that if you or others are interested

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." (NKJV)

What did Yeshua mean by saying here that the rich man was in "torments in Hades"? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated "torments" above.
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means "strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . ."
The etymology of basanos found in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:
In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur[ative] sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .


Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7
　

TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB​

The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages - see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well, you are close and yet so far away..Saved or rescued people do not go to heaven. Heaven will be right here on Earth.

I didn't say that Earth will not become part of Heaven.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Can you provide more verses that support Jude 1:13 meaning some people will wander forever in darkness?

No, I do think the Bible is strangely quite on this issue. I can only point to the absence of any scripture that speaks of spirit death, whereas there are several verses that speak of soul death.

There are some verses that kind of make that interpretation iffy, such as

Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
(That's from the NLT version. Some versions it says give praise to God, some say will confess to God.)

I think that is speaking of a time after the rapture and all the evil people being taken away.

 

[he-man]

No, I do think the Bible is strangely quite on this issue. I can only point to the absence of any scripture that speaks of spirit death, whereas there are several verses that speak of soul death.

I think that is speaking of a time after the rapture and all the evil people being taken away.

There is NO rapture!

Mat 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mr 13:14 "But when you see the abomination that causes desolation to stand where not to be perceived (he reading to understand), then those in Judea let them escape to the mountains. [Dan 7:22, 9:27; 11:31; 12:11]
Judea the mountainous southern part of the historic Land of Israel

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

That is the historic Land of Israel !

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Mr 4:29 "But when the fruit is delivered, at once he sends away for the sickle, to stand before the harvest."

Mat 13:48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mr 13:32 But concerning that day or the hour no one knows, nor the messengers in heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.

 

[createdtoworship]

Where does the Bible talk about that?

there are alot of verses speaking of the free will of man

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:12,13

an open invitation for all unsaved people to call on the Lord regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile. Man has a will to receive Salvation.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - Matthew 23:37

Here, the Lord Jesus is wanting to bring Jerusalem back to himself in a salvation relationship, but they are not willing. This is not a case of a totally depraved will choosing evil. To suggest that these people did not have a chance to respond to the Saviour's call makes a mockery of the Saviour's statement.

Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. - Luke 18:22,23

Man has a free will to reject salvation if He chooses.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16

man has a will to be saved or not be saved

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. - 1 Timothy 4:10

Man has a will to receive or reject. Christ is a Savior of all men because He died for all men, but He is especially the Savior for those who believe because in them the saving work is effectual.

Then said they unto him, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." - John 6:28,29

again it's mans free will to obtain or not obtain.

 

[underheaven]

That is an interesting interpretation. I had considered that somewhat. That is to say, I believed God's grace would always be available, but there would inevitably be some people who STILL refuse to come to Him. The gates may always be open, but not all will be willing to give up the sins holding them back and return to their father. I'm still curious as to how you can really blaspheme the holy spirit, but maybe its something that can only happen in the life to come, once we meet our Creator. I actually kind of agree with you there.

*looks around*

Well the world didn't implode so I guess its okay for me to agree with you there . I am a bit concerned though because you rely a lot on Jude 1:13, assuming that it is talking about a possible reality in the life to come. Can you provide more verses that support Jude 1:13 meaning some people will wander forever in darkness? There are some verses that kind of make that interpretation iffy, such as

Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
(That's from the NLT version. Some versions it says give praise to God, some say will confess to God.)


Like I said, its still a possible interpretation. I'm hoping God will surprise us all when we get to paradise. I'm still open to what people have to say about the afterlife. I believe ultimately I'll have to go with the "I don't know" response, but I do believe God will judge us all one day. Its pretty hard to go wrong if you believe that.

Unfortunately there are those whose idea of 'paradise' is limited by their lack of imagination and knowledge.There are aspects of life, existence which are not detailed in the bible.They are not meant to be,as they could only be understood as they came into being [as God's plan],and Jesus mentions this ' difference 'in awareness between individuals,look at John.
Paradise is beyond even the best minds imagining, more wonderful,larger,
and complexly simple,and not stagnant,while being CALM.Above all it will be beautiful,time will not matter,there will be endless creativity,but never any hurry,for Time is down there,not up here.Love will permeate everywhere,with beautiful music.Boredom,lonliness,strife,etc will be gone.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

@gradyll

Where does it talk about God not violating man's free will?

 

[createdtoworship]

@gradyll

Where does it talk about God not violating man's free will?

I just gave you several verses regarding the presence of free will. Why would God violate something He created in the first place - "the ability to chose"?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I could ask in return why God would set up the sacrificial system if He wasn't going to be pleased by it.

I could ask why God would create people that he knew would turn against Him(if God is all knowing).

I am not questioning free will. I am questioning where does it support that God will not violate man's free will?

The student doesn't choose the rabbi, the rabbi choses the student. Jesus' disciples didn't choose him, he chose them.

I guess my point is that you're making an assumption that God would not violate the ability to choose if He would just restore everyone in the end anyways. Its a valid assumption, why would God imbue us with reason and logic and thinking and choice? I also have to ask though, where is that idea supported in the text?

We are reading the Bible from a culture and a society where we CAN make choices about how we live our life, what our careers will be, how far we can make the American dream a reality. Essentially, we are used to having the ability to choose our own way. Its a value that we assume should be for everyone.

Now, let's look at the Old Testament. There are some verses that seem to actually point in the opposite direction of free will, in that God ultimately will influence a person's actions to accomplish His will. For example:

Exodus 10
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him

Now, its really confusing when you read verses that seem to contradict each other.

Free will verses

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Joshua 24:15 - Choose you this day whom ye will serve

Limited free will verses

2 Th 2:11-12 - God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to our own purpose and grace, which was given us in Jesus Christ before the world began.

So, God clearly wants us to choose, but He'll also intervene if its something that must be done to accomplish His will. So, that's why I'm asking, does the Bible really support God not violating our will, our ability to choose?

 

[createdtoworship]

I could ask in return why God would set up the sacrificial system if He wasn't going to be pleased by it.

I could ask why God would create people that he knew would turn against Him(if God is all knowing).

I am not questioning free will. I am questioning where does it support that God will not violate man's free will?

The student doesn't choose the rabbi, the rabbi choses the student. Jesus' disciples didn't choose him, he chose them.

I guess my point is that you're making an assumption that God would not violate the ability to choose if He would just restore everyone in the end anyways. Its a valid assumption, why would God imbue us with reason and logic and thinking and choice? I also have to ask though, where is that idea supported in the text?

We are reading the Bible from a culture and a society where we CAN make choices about how we live our life, what our careers will be, how far we can make the American dream a reality. Essentially, we are used to having the ability to choose our own way. Its a value that we assume should be for everyone.

Now, let's look at the Old Testament. There are some verses that seem to actually point in the opposite direction of free will, in that God ultimately will influence a person's actions to accomplish His will. For example:

Exodus 10
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him

Now, its really confusing when you read verses that seem to contradict each other.

Free will verses

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life.

Joshua 24:15 - Choose you this day whom ye will serve

Limited free will verses

2 Th 2:11-12 - God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to our own purpose and grace, which was given us in Jesus Christ before the world began.

So, God clearly wants us to choose, but He'll also intervene if its something that must be done to accomplish His will. So, that's why I'm asking, does the Bible really support God not violating our will, our ability to choose?

Just because God hardened pharaoh's heart doesn't mean that man does not have a free will. If pharaoh repented first hand God would not have to harden His heart. Pharaoh chose His own destiny. Every one chooses their destiny. Even though God calls us, We must answer the call on our own. Even though God elects us, still God won't repent for you.

 

[he-man]

@gradyll

Where does it talk about God not violating man's free will?

Are you serious or delirious?

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luk 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Are you serious or delirious?

While I agree with your theological point, I think this was a derisive post. No, Lord H is not delirious. I agree that God does not violate free will, but I can understand how some people would question this and I see nothing in the quotes from scripture that you gave that would genuinely counter the notion that we do not have free will.

As for myself I believe in a sort of limited free will. A Hindu saint of the 1800's described it as being like a cow on a tether, with a limited range of free will but not a wholesale free will that allows unlimited freedom of movement.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Luk 12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I could ask in return why God would set up the sacrificial system if He wasn't going to be pleased by it.

I could ask why God would create people that he knew would turn against Him(if God is all knowing).

When you turn on a light it creates shadows. It was unavoidable in God's plan that shadow entities would be created, but the real issue is how WE deal with these entitites, not how God deals with them. If we give them sympathy and fall to liberal notions of compassion in their regard, they get to stick around for longer.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Where is Timothew???

Looks like I won the Jude 1:13 argument and he left with his tail between his legs. (If this doesn't get him posting nothing will.)

 

[he-man]

While I see nothing in the quotes from scripture that you gave that would genuinely counter the notion that we do not have free will.

Duh? That proves that you DO have freewill to confess or to deny or to accept Christ or to reject Christ.

Luk 12:8Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

Originally Posted by Lord Herdsetk I could ask why God would create people that he knew would turn against Him(if God is all knowing).[/quote]

Gee, do you remember 9/11, if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.

How about the recent earthquake that knocked 3 Pinnacales off the Washington National Cathedral? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/23/washington-dc-earthquake-2011_n_934244.html?

I recommend you review this position paper now: "Why Should the U.S. Fund the Terror Group Hamas?" "Editorial, September 19, 2011, Wall Street Journal

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord.

Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.

7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.

9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jer 18:5-10 (ESV)

We are the same as the clay is to the potter and if we do evil in God's sight, and do not repent, then we have chosen the path that leads to destruction.

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Romans 9:14-15 (ESV)

19 Will you say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]speak against [/FONT][/FONT]God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one who has a certain quality for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience one who has a certain quality of wrath, prepared for destruction,

23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for One who has a certain quality of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
Romans 9:19-25 (ESV)

26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ” Romans 9:26 (ESV)

Where is that very place?

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 

[Timothew]

Where is Timothew???

Looks like I won the Jude 1:13 argument and he left with his tail between his legs. (If this doesn't get him posting nothing will.)

I'm just tired of it. Jude 13 also says they are "wild waves of the sea". Hint hint, poetic language being used here. Jude is practically screaming this at you, but you are so dull, you can't see it.

You win the argument by sheer stubbornness.
OR you could read Jude (it's short) and learn from it.

Here it is:
New International Version
1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept bya Jesus Christ:
2Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lordc delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.
11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

You can insist Jude 13 is literal, if you can show that the false teachers are actual waves and actual stars and if you can bring yourself to ignore the rest of Jude's words.

But you have your own way of looking at this, and nothing I say or anyone else is going to make you change your mind.

Are you trying to say that Timothew is right and that there is no eternal torment, just annihilation?

It isn't a question of me being right or wrong. I'm just quoting what the bible says. The bible is right, the bible says the wages of sin is death, not the wages of sin is eternal torment or eternal wandering. The bible says "these things destroy them", not these things cause eternal torment.

I'm not always going to respond to your taunts. If I don't, you can still assume that you are wrong.