Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[createdtoworship]

The next verse also talks about talking trees so Isaiah 14:11 so Isaiah was using metaphor that the dead would be happy and joyful at the death of the king entereing their midst.

"Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations." Isaiah 14:9

Regarding isaiah 14, if you believe the whole chapter is a metaphor because of one verse then that means that satan didn't fall like lightening right?(v12)

 

[createdtoworship]

Problem Verses

There are multiple passages that show the dead are conscious after death.

1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Matthew 12:40 (Jonah 2) – Jonah spoke as one from hell who was dead.

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.

Matthew 22:31-32 – Abraham was dead, but still living.

Luke 16:19-31 – Jesus tells the story of dead people speaking in hell. (Some wrongly think this is a parable. It is not. If soul sleep were true then the story is not only false, but the Lord is misleading his hearers as to what is real. This is significant evidence that the dead are not only conscious but can speak and feel.)

Luke 23:43 – Jesus says the malefactor will be in paradise with him “today”.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 – Whether they wake or sleep they live with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 – Paul explains that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 – Paul describes someone who heard things possibly out of his body.

Philippians 1:23 – Paul says that he would depart to be with Christ, not unconscious.

Revelation 6:9-11 – The soul is dead and is crying out to God.

Problem Definitions

Many of the concepts below are misunderstood, denied, or ignored by those who teach the unconscious dead.

Death does not mean unconsciousness, but rather separation. The only time it means cessation of activity is when it applies to the body.

Body is not the soul; soul is not the body; spirit is not the soul.

Sleep never refers to the soul or spirit. It only applies to the body.

Man does not exist only in his body.

To arrive at a belief in the unconscious state of the dead the wrong methods. Doctrines that rely on spiritualization and other languages do not provide a strong defense.

 

[he-man]

"Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations." Isaiah 14:9

Regarding isaiah 14, if you believe the whole chapter is a metaphor because of one verse then that means that satan didn't fall like lightening right?(v12)

Right! satan didn't fall like lightening but this Chapter is a prophecy not a metaphor. Metaphors compare two things without using "like" or "as".

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.

20 The womb shall forget him; the maggot shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and
wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

 

[createdtoworship]

Right! satan didn't fall like lightening but this Chapter is a prophecy not a metaphor. Metaphors compare two things without using "like" or "as".

Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD

Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.

20 The womb shall forget him; the maggot shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and
wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

More on satan falling:

Luke 10:18 Jesus tells his disciples, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” and revelation 9:1 too

 

[he-man]

More on satan falling:

Luke 10:18 Jesus tells his disciples, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” and revelation 9:1 too

Symbolic of the fall of Jerusalem
"Thus should the fall of the corrupt Jewish state be, and thus was the fall of idolatry in the Gentile world." CLARKE

 

[createdtoworship]

Symbolic of the fall of Jerusalem
"Thus should the fall of the corrupt Jewish state be, and thus was the fall of idolatry in the Gentile world." CLARKE

Jesus was not speaking in parables there

 

[Mikecpking]

"Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations." Isaiah 14:9

Regarding isaiah 14, if you believe the whole chapter is a metaphor because of one verse then that means that satan didn't fall like lightening right?(v12)

Metaphors and literal truth are everywhere in the bible, Jesus spoke in parables, but they were not literal stories. You have to know the difference. Hence, the talking cedars in the same Isaiah quotation. Were the cedars literally talking? I think not!

 

[createdtoworship]

Metaphors and literal truth are everywhere in the bible,

metaphors are numbers and can be counted and documented like these

Metaphor

A metaphor involves a direct or implied comparison of two unlike REAL things.

“The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer” (2 Sam. 22:3).

“We are His people and the sheep of His pasture” (Ps. 100:3).

“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

The seven “I am” statements of Jesus in the Gospel of John are all metaphors.

“I am the bread of life” (John 6:35).

“I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (John 10:9)

“I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11).

“I am the the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25).

“I am the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6).

“I am the true vine, and My father is the vinedresser” (John 15:1).

Also see Psalm 23:1; Jeremiah 2:13; Luke 8:21; Revelation 1:20.

Jesus spoke in parables, but they were not literal stories. You have to know the difference.

whenever a parable was spoken real places and real jobs were spoken never do you have imaginary places and people because for one the story wouldn't make any sense. Secondly it would no longer be a parable but a fairy tale.

Hence, the talking cedars in the same Isaiah quotation. Were the cedars literally talking? I think not!

trees talking is obviously a personification or figure of speach. But does that mean the whole book of Isaiah is figurative? Satan falling, messianic prophecies such as....Jesus being born of a virgin, Jesus sitting on the throne of David, that Jesus would be beaten and spat upon, crucified with transgressors..etc etc??

also don't be confused between a metaphor and a simile

a simile is like a metaphor but uses the words "like" or "as" often used in parables. These too can be documented and counted. Note that they always use real people and places:

“So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a hut in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city” (Isa. 1:8).

“All we like sheep have gone astray” (Isa. 53:6).

“For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap” (Mal. 3:2).

“For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt. 24:27).

“Behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves” (Luke 10:3). Also see Isaiah 29:8; 55:10-11; Jeremiah 23:29; Matthew 23:37; 1 Corinthians 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:2.

there are also irony's, hyperbole's, euphemisms, allegories and parables. But these can all be noted and counted in any hermeneutics book or book on biblical figures of speech.

 

[Timothew]

You repeatedly refuse to address the subject of Jude 1:13, you wiggle and squirm to avoid it over and over again.

I do not wiggle, nor do I squirm. However, everytime I look up a passage you've quoted, I find out that you've misquoted it. Look at Numbers 16:33, you say "they went down alive into sheol" but you negleted the rest of the verse, the part that says "they perished". Here is the whole verse.

They went down alive into the grave, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community.

 

[createdtoworship]

I do not wiggle, nor do I squirm. However, everytime I look up a passage you've quoted, I find out that you've misquoted it. Look at Numbers 16:33, you say "they went down alive into sheol" but you negleted the rest of the verse, the part that says "they perished". Here is the whole verse.

that just means they were "gone from the community," like the rest of the verse says.

 

[Mikecpking]

metaphors are numbers and can be counted and documented like these

Metaphor

A metaphor involves a direct or implied comparison of two unlike REAL things.

“The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer” (2 Sam. 22:3).

“We are His people and the sheep of His pasture” (Ps. 100:3).

“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

The seven “I am” statements of Jesus in the Gospel of John are all metaphors.

“I am the bread of life” (John 6:35).

“I am the light of the world” (John 8:12).

“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (John 10:9)

“I am the good shepherd” (John 10:11).

“I am the the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25).

“I am the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6).

“I am the true vine, and My father is the vinedresser” (John 15:1).

Also see Psalm 23:1; Jeremiah 2:13; Luke 8:21; Revelation 1:20.



whenever a parable was spoken real places and real jobs were spoken never do you have imaginary places and people because for one the story wouldn't make any sense. Secondly it would no longer be a parable but a fairy tale.



trees talking is obviously a personification or figure of speach. But does that mean the whole book of Isaiah is figurative? Satan falling, messianic prophecies such as....Jesus being born of a virgin, Jesus sitting on the throne of David, that Jesus would be beaten and spat upon, crucified with transgressors..etc etc??

also don't be confused between a metaphor and a simile

a simile is like a metaphor but uses the words "like" or "as" often used in parables. These too can be documented and counted. Note that they always use real people and places:

“So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, as a hut in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city” (Isa. 1:8).

“All we like sheep have gone astray” (Isa. 53:6).

“For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap” (Mal. 3:2).

“For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt. 24:27).

“Behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves” (Luke 10:3). Also see Isaiah 29:8; 55:10-11; Jeremiah 23:29; Matthew 23:37; 1 Corinthians 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:2.

there are also irony's, hyperbole's, euphemisms, allegories and parables. But these can all be noted and counted in any hermeneutics book or book on biblical figures of speech.

So were the talking trees real?

 

[Timothew]

that just means they were "gone from the community," like the rest of the verse says.

They perished AND they were gone from the community. The reason that they were gone from the community is because they perished. This doesn't mean they didn't perish and they just left the community.

I think that you refuse to see what the words say because that would require you to change your belief, and you are unwilling to do that.

This isn't an issue of what the bible says anymore. This is simply an issue of stubborness.

 

[createdtoworship]

They perished AND they were gone from the community. The reason that they were gone from the community is because they perished. This doesn't mean they didn't perish and they just left the community.


This isn't an issue of what the bible says anymore. This is simply an issue of stubborness.

Oh it's very much an issue of what the Bible says.

I think that you refuse to see what the words say because that would require you to change your belief, and you are unwilling to do that.

I am unwilling but you have shone the same bias time and time again in your definitions.

 

[createdtoworship]

So were the talking trees real?

it was a personification. But only that one phrase. Not what followed or what preceded. Thats how analogies work.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I do not wiggle, nor do I squirm. However, everytime I look up a passage you've quoted, I find out that you've misquoted it. Look at Numbers 16:33, you say "they went down alive into sheol" but you negleted the rest of the verse, the part that says "they perished". Here is the whole verse.

You claim to not wiggle and squirm, yet you still do not address Jude 1:13. Even after being twice dead the wicked continue to "wander eternally in nether gloom". There is no way out of it, the second death even is not an end to consciousness. Consciousness in the spirit is eternal.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So were the talking trees real?

Yes, trees have consciousness. It is a horrifying thought considering what we do to trees, but it is real. The Bible is not just a metaphor. Let me give you a more concrete example, the Trees of Eden:

1. Ezekiel 31:9
   I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God.
   Ezekiel 31:16
   I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the realm of the dead to be with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, the well-watered trees, were consoled in the earth below.
   Ezekiel 31:18
   “‘Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. “‘This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”

The trees of Eden are spoken of so frequently here for them to be just a metaphor. Trees are conscious living beings.

 

[Mikecpking]

Yes, trees have consciousness. It is a horrifying thought considering what we do to trees, but it is real. The Bible is not just a metaphor. Let me give you a more concrete example, the Trees of Eden:

1. Ezekiel 31:9
   I made it beautiful with abundant branches, the envy of all the trees of Eden in the garden of God.
   Ezekiel 31:16
   I made the nations tremble at the sound of its fall when I brought it down to the realm of the dead to be with those who go down to the pit. Then all the trees of Eden, the choicest and best of Lebanon, the well-watered trees, were consoled in the earth below.
   Ezekiel 31:18
   “‘Which of the trees of Eden can be compared with you in splendor and majesty? Yet you, too, will be brought down with the trees of Eden to the earth below; you will lie among the uncircumcised, with those killed by the sword. “‘This is Pharaoh and all his hordes, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”

The trees of Eden are spoken of so frequently here for them to be just a metaphor. Trees are conscious living beings.

I have around 6,000 carnivorous plants in my collection and I talk to them too, but I don't expect them to join in a conversation with me..

I am sure Isaiah was speaking figuratively in chapter 14 as the rest of scripture describes sheol as a place of silence (Ps 115. 17)

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have around 6,000 carnivorous plants in my collection and I talk to them too, but I don't expect them to join in a conversation with me..

I am sure Isaiah was speaking figuratetivley in chapter 14 as the rest of scripture describes sheol as a place of silence (Ps 115. 17)

17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

the silence in psalm 115:17 is the praises that are now gone, doesn't mean that there is no talking or noise.

"Hell from beneath is moved for you to meet you at your coming: it stirs up the dead for you, even all the chief ones of the earth; it has raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations." Isaiah 14:9

commentaries that agree with a literal conscious hell:

The receiving the king of Babylon into the regions of the dead, shows there is a world of spirits, to which the souls of men remove at death. And that souls have converse with each other, though we have none with them; and that death and hell will be death and hell indeed,
Henry, Matthew ; Scott, Thomas: Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 1997, S. Is 14:1

spirits in the netherworld stir themselves up as the king of Babylon knocks and desires to enter.
Elwell, Walter A.: Evangelical Commentary on the Bible. Grand Rapids, Mich. : Baker Book House, 1996, c1989 (Baker Reference Library 3), S. Is 14:9

Hell (Heb Sheol) is the Old Testament name for the abode of the dead. It includes Hades, which is the fiery-like place of judgment for the unsaved. Thus, the ungodly rulers of former ages are pictured here as welcoming the king of Babylon into hell.
KJV Bible Commentary. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1994, S. 1324

Isaiah described the king’s arrival in sheol, the world of the dead, where the king’s wealth, glory, and power vanished. The dead kings already in sheol stood in tribute to him (Isa. 14:9)
Wiersbe, Warren W.: Be Comforted. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1996, c1992 (An Old Testament Study), S. Is 13:1

the king of Babylon is viewed as being welcomed into hell by the kings of the nations (Gentiles), who are astonished that he has become weak as we.
King James Version Study Bible . electronic ed. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1988, S. Is 14:1

Isaiah was speaking figuratetivley in chapter 14

Regarding isaiah 14, if you believe the whole chapter is figurative because of one verse then that means that satan didn't fall like lightening right?(v12)

secondly, if it is all figurative then there was no king of babylon or assyrians (v25)

rest of scripture describes sheol as a place of silence

Matthew 17:2-3 – Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus after their death.
1st Samuel 28:11-19 - samuel talked with a witch after death

Revelation 6:9-11 – The soul is dead and is crying out to God.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Your logic is saying that because Samaritans were used in a parable, then they didn't exist. However the people then widely hated Samaritans, which is why Jesus chose to use them in that example. So yeah, its obvious to say they did exist. In the same breath, you claim that because Jesus talked about hades, that that place had to exist too.

Essentially, you're comparing something that may or may not exist in a literal sense to a group of people the Jews loathed and say they both have to exist if both were used in parables. This is very weak logic. I guess the best example would be comparing apples to oranges. The tangible and intangible are getting tangled up, assuming that what's true for one is true for another.

As far as Jude goes, we only have to look at the word forever. Forever did not mean an infinite amount of time indefinitely but an undetermined amount of time, an age. The end of this age is the beginning of the next age.

As far as the blackest darkness goes, in Revelations 21 it mentions that the Holy City is coming down out of heaven from God, that God's dwelling place is among the people now.

Now, its really interesting when you consider that the word heaven was also used in place of God, because the Jews considered God's name to be so sacred some wouldn't even dare speak His name. But heaven was also used as a term for paradise.

At any rate, God is now living among the people. Its interesting, what else Revelations 21 has to say.

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

What does it mean by "on no day will its gates ever be shut, for there is no night there?"

It kind of confirms and contradicts what Jude was saying. If the forever in Jude is an undetermined amount of time and heaven's gates are never shut and there is no night at heavens gates, and the people outside those gates are wandering stars, it almost seems like God is leaving it open for them to find. Of course, only those whose name is in the lamb's book of life will enter. The question is then, how is your name written in that book of life?

That's my interpretation of it anyway. Its not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. My point is, is God's love open enough for everyone to be saved? Will the best of us, such as Ghandi and Mother Teresa, and the worst of us, Hitler, be saved, even if it takes forever? Is it possible for God? Does God even want that?

I should correct myself in this post by saying aion did not JUST mean forever as in unlimited, but could also mean an age or undetermined period of time. But I do address Jude here.

 

[underheaven]

Nowhere does Jude say destroyed. Even after they are twice dead the still "wander in eternal nether gloom".

How can there be a second death if consiousness ceases at the first death. If consciousness ceased at the first death there would be no need for a soul death, one would already be thoroughly dead an unconsciousness. The very existence of a second death proves that consciousness does not cease at the first death, otherwise the second death would have no meaning.

In verse 13, where they continue to wander in eternal nether gloom even after being twice dead.

You're the one that started the snippy "hello?" business.

I have just noticed the dog praying.What a lovely image ?
It makes my heart smilepour le petit et le chien.