Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[LutheranMafia]

I should correct myself in this post by saying aion did not JUST mean forever as in unlimited, but could also mean an age or undetermined period of time. But I do address Jude here.

Well, even if it is not eternity, which I seriously doubt, Jude 1:13 makes it clear that even after the second death there is a continued consciousness.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, even if it is not eternity, which I seriously doubt, Jude 1:13 makes it clear that even after the second death there is a continued consciousness.

he's right

 

[LutheranMafia]

he's right

Yeah, there is a deafening silence. It looks like someone finally won a debate here!

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Did you read my post about Jude? I was basically saying that the gate of heaven are never closed and that those wandering around outside of it could be let in after they have endured enough punishment according to what they had done in their life now.

 

[he-man]

Well, even if it is not eternity, which I seriously doubt, Jude 1:13 makes it clear that even after the second death there is a continued consciousness.

What? You don't understand Jude 7? Read on.........

Isa 5611) Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough.
And they are shepherds Who cannot understand;
They all look to their own way,
Every one for his own gain,
From his own territory.
(12) " Come," one says, "I will bring wine,
And we will fill ourselves with intoxicating drink;
Tomorrow will be as today,
And much more abundant."

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Amo 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Of course, there is another interpretation of Jude 1:13

It doesn't have anything to do with the fate of the wicked, but rather its talking about a false teacher's words.

Bible Topics: Jude Chapter 1:13-20

 

[LutheranMafia]

Of course, there is another interpretation of Jude 1:13

It doesn't have anything to do with the fate of the wicked, but rather its talking about a false teacher's words.

Bible Topics: Jude Chapter 1:13-20

What is the difference between the wicked and false teachers? The wicked will preach to anyone that will listen.

 

[LutheranMafia]

What? You don't understand Jude 7? Read on.........

Isa 5611) Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough.
And they are shepherds Who cannot understand;
They all look to their own way,
Every one for his own gain,
From his own territory.
(12) " Come," one says, "I will bring wine,
And we will fill ourselves with intoxicating drink;
Tomorrow will be as today,
And much more abundant."

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Amo 4:11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You quote a lot of disassociated verses here, but what is your point? Are you trying to say that Timothew is right and that there is no eternal torment, just annihilation? Jude 1:13 makes it clear that this is not the case.

 

[he-man]

You quote a lot of disassociated verses here, but what is your point? Are you trying to say that Timothew is right and that there is no eternal torment, just annihilation? Jude 1:13 makes it clear that this is not the case.

That is what the Bible says just annihilation, but there are some who pretend to be shepherds but cannot understand that if a person were to be tortured endlessly, they would be immortal and therefore nothing could hurt them or cause any pain.

Isa 5611) Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough.
And they are shepherds Who cannot understand;

What greater penalty could someone have than to never see God. Are you vindictive? Are you so spiteful and unforgiving that you wish to think you could Torture a dead body?

God will take care of those evil peoples

Jud 1:14... Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [destruction].
2 Thess 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

[LutheranMafia]

That is what the Bible says just annihilation, but there are some who pretend to be shepherds but cannot understand that if a person were to be tortured endlessly, they would be immortal and therefore nothing could hurt them or cause any pain.

Immortality in the nether gloom of eternal darkness is most defenitely a state of pain and hurt.

 

[he-man]

Immortality in the nether gloom of eternal darkness is most defenitely a state of pain and hurt.

Isa 5611) Yes, they are greedy dogs Which never have enough.
And they are shepherds Who cannot understand;

What greater penalty could someone have than to never see God. Are you vindictive? Are you so spiteful and unforgiving that you wish to think you could Torture a dead body?

God will take care of those evil peoples

Jud 1:14... Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 ...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Rev 21:7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire [destruction].
2 Thess 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

What is the difference between the wicked and false teachers? The wicked will preach to anyone that will listen.

I said its about a false teacher's words. Jude is addressing false teachers speaking false teachings. The article elaborates more on it.

But assuming that Jude 1:13 is also speaking of the destination of those who sound righteous but speak lies, it uses that word we've come to love by now, forever. How is forever being used in this context? Do they wander about in endless darkness or burn in a lake of fire? Its impossible to do both at the same time if the lake of fire is the ultimate destination of those who refused to repent. For one, the lake of fire is on fire. Fire gives off light. So then is it not a literal lake of fire but somewhere that still causes a burning sensation? But if we accept any view like that, why are we so hasty to shut down other non-literal interpretations of the lake of fire?

Essentially, do they wander in space or a space like place for all of eternity, or do they burn for eternity? If so, what is eternity defined as? If not, what happens to them? Why does God bother punishing those He has no desire to save or restore? Wouldn't it make more sense to just annihilate His enemies instead of torturing them? Doesn't that make God just as bad as a war criminal who tortures his enemies in refugee camps with no hope of getting out? If God ultimately sends some people to a place to suffer without end, does that make me a more moral being than God, as I would just end their suffering by killing them quickly or restoring them instead of taking 'righteous' judgement out on those who wronged me for the rest of the ages to come? How does a person who lives for a limited amount of time deserve that kind of fate? Unless we're as immortal like God, we had to have a beginning somewhere. We had to be created at some point. God existed before there was even the idea of a point to start at.

How screwed up is it when sinful human beings seem to be more merciful than the god they serve? God was supposed to be the one who would judge us all one day, who would call out all the wrongs done on this earth and reward all the right that had been done. People say that the Old Testament God is mean and brutal where the New Testament God is loving and kind. If the hell doctrine is true and millions of people are going to place to suffer without end because they didn't believe in certain dogmas or follow certain teachings, then the Old Testament God is much nicer and just than the New Testament God. It wasn't until the New Testament that people started to speak about a place of unlimited suffering known as hell. Hell wasn't even used in the Old Testament. If this is what Christianity is really all about, Jesus saving our butts from a god that is so full of wrath and hatred for what mankind has become that he had to have his son killed just to appease his blood thirst for humanity and its sinfulness, then Christianity as a religion needs to die and die fast. Its disgusting.

That's coming from someone who serves Christ and believes in God.

I do think there will be punishment for those who have wronged others and refused to repent of their evil ways. I do not think that God will take lightly all the crap that goes on here. I believe God will either find a way to restore those people but punish them according to their works, or will simply just kill them/refuse to resurrect those people. What purpose is there in paradise to know that there is a place where several people you knew in this are endlessly being tortured? How can that ever be paradise?

 

[LutheranMafia]

I do think there will be punishment for those who have wronged others and refused to repent of their evil ways. I do not think that God will take lightly all the crap that goes on here. I believe God will either find a way to restore those people but punish them according to their works, or will simply just kill them/refuse to resurrect those people. What purpose is there in paradise to know that there is a place where several people you knew in this are endlessly being tortured? How can that ever be paradise?

Those who are foremost in Christ are those who are most betrayed. I expect them least of all to feel any sympothy for the soulless spirits of the damned. It is in fact they who most appreciate that there is no real sympothy for the damned, it is all betrayed, all a lie, any appeal to sympothy is fabrication.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Essentially, do they wander in space or a space like place for all of eternity, or do they burn for eternity? If so, what is eternity defined as? If not, what happens to them? Why does God bother punishing those He has no desire to save or restore? Wouldn't it make more sense to just annihilate His enemies instead of torturing them? Doesn't that make God just as bad as a war criminal who tortures his enemies in refugee camps with no hope of getting out?

You judge God based on whether or not spirit is eternal. Spirit is eternal, there is no erasing, no computer reset, spirit is eternal. It is not God's fault that some spirits choose eternal torment, despite all of the warning they were given. In fact it is precisely because more than sufficient warning was given and yet the damned have no thought of repentance, that damnation is so sure. In human would have given up a long time ago, but God waits till the last to see which way a spirit will flow.

If God ultimately sends some people to a place to suffer without end, does that make me a more moral being than God, as I would just end their suffering by killing them quickly or restoring them instead of taking 'righteous' judgement out on those who wronged me for the rest of the ages to come?

Your use of a run-on sentence (stop and breath while you are yelling) makes it clear that you are dealing with this subject from a very emotional and subjective frame of mind. You are not more merciful than God simply because you would forgive the wicked more chances to commit the same crimes, while God will not. It is God who is much more merciful in my book. You would give the villians more room to maneuver, while God has a final cut-off point. Only thoughtless libertines would grant the wicked more room to maneuver. You would grant the wickd the power to surpress and harm the righteous for an even longer time, if your unGodly wish were granted.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

My problem is with the punishment itself, not the idea of punishment. Why is it good for God to punish people without end? That's ultimately what I've been asking since the beginning. If there is no hope, there is no point to punishing something. God's punishment was to correct His people in the Old Testament, not because God hated His people.

Also, how was my sentence a run on, and how was I yelling? Am I yelling in emotional frustration as a juxtaposition to yourself calmly speaking facts? Should I spew forth pretentious, flowery prose in order to show that I am capable rational thought in this conversation? Should I wait until I'm your age until I am capable to be speaking about eternity, or would I still be too young as I will always be 22 years younger than you. I know you are condescending towards me on account of my age, but I believe I have perfectly valid questions regardless of my age. We all cannot grasp what forever will be like.

Should I accept that God will torture some people forever without end? Is that good news? Its not for those receiving the torture, and for those whose loved ones are those being tortured.

 

[Truth_Warrior]

You judge God based on whether or not spirit is eternal. Spirit is eternal, there is no erasing, no computer reset, spirit is eternal. It is not God's fault that some spirits choose eternal torment, despite all of the warning they were given. In fact it is precisely because more than sufficient warning was given and yet the damned have no thought of repentance, that damnation is so sure. In human would have given up a long time ago, but God waits till the last to see which way a spirit will flow.

Your use of a run-on sentence (stop and breath while you are yelling) makes it clear that you are dealing with this subject from a very emotional and subjective frame of mind. You are not more merciful than God simply because you would forgive the wicked more chances to commit the same crimes, while God will not. It is God who is much more merciful in my book. You would give the villians more room to maneuver, while God has a final cut-off point. Only thoughtless libertines would grant the wicked more room to maneuver. You would grant the wickd the power to surpress and harm the righteous for an even longer time, if your unGodly wish were granted.

Can you give some scripture support as it pertains to those not born again having eternal spirit.

I personally have not seen this scripturally. There have been millions upon millions of people who have not been given the gospel to make a decision one way or the other so should they burn forever?

It appears doctrine taught takes presedence over logic and what scripture reveals.


Gods Word teaches us that eternal life is ONLY for the saved or born again.

Whether you realize it or not ,burning forever is eternal and the Bible does not teach an eternal existence for anyone but Gods Sons and Daughters.


I live in the USA, and it seems that our language is riddled with references to “hell.”

I constantly hear that extremely versatile word used in conversations of all kinds. People say: “What the hell?” or “The hell with it,” or “Hell, yes / no,” etc.

On occasion, some people, though not travel agents, have encouraged me to “go to hell.” I don’t think I want to, because I’ve heard that the Devil lives there, but if I did want to just drive by, where exactly is it located?

Based on what people are saying, we assume that “hell” is a word used in the Bible, and if so, what is “hell”?

The word “hell” is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture.

In the KJV, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that “hell” is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as “grave.” Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as “hell.”

The misconception that man is deathless (introduced by the Devil in Genesis 3:4 and later believed by the Greeks) spawned the corresponding notion that there must be an eternal residence for good people and another address for bad people. Thus arose the following falsehoods:

A dead person goes either to “heaven” or “hell” and stays there forever.
“Hell” is a place of everlasting torment in flames.

Fire is a preservative (who else believes this?).


It is important to realize that no verse in the Bible says that the “soul” or “spirit” lives on by itself.

No verse says that “hell” is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with God’s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.


For those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord, he will give them the gift of life in the age to come. Those who refuse to believe in him will pay the penalty for sin themselves. How? By dying forever in the lake of fire. Everlasting life is just that—life without end, and everlasting death is destruction without hope of recall—permanent extermination. This is God’s perfect justice, and it is definitely a matter of life and death.

 

[LutheranMafia]

My problem is with the punishment itself, not the idea of punishment. Why is it good for God to punish people without end? That's ultimately what I've been asking since the beginning. If there is no hope, there is no point to punishing something. God's punishment was to correct His people in the Old Testament, not because God hated His people.

You are caught up with the idea of punishment, but eteranal existence of the spirit is not a punishment. I really believe that those mentioned in Jude1:13 are exactly where they want to be. Psychopaths don't want company. They lie to everyone they can and manipulate everyone they can, but God will only put up with deceiving spirits for so long before it is finally time, no matter how many innocent souls have sympathy for them.

Also, how was my sentence a run on, and how was I yelling? Am I yelling in emotional frustration as a juxtaposition to yourself calmly speaking facts? Should I spew forth pretentious, flowery prose in order to show that I am capable rational thought in this conversation? Should I wait until I'm your age until I am capable to be speaking about eternity, or would I still be too young as I will always be 22 years younger than you. I know you are condescending towards me on account of my age, but I believe I have perfectly valid questions regardless of my age. We all cannot grasp what forever will be like.

Actually, I had not idea of your age. Most of the people here are 50+, so I hadn't given your age much thought.

Should I accept that God will torture some people forever without end? Is that good news? Its not for those receiving the torture, and for those whose loved ones are those being tortured.

Those who are destined to die the second death have no loved ones. As to the Good News about torture, I don't think that Jude 1:13 says anything about eternal torment (although Revelation does). Jude 1:13 is about people with no love, they can't understand love, only might makes right. I think that Hell is only a torment for saveable souls, for those who cannot be saved, those who fear the Light rather than loving it, they get exactly what they desire. They wouldn't want to go to Heaven anyway, so the Outer Darkness where they will go is like having shades in the noon-day air. They want the Outer Darkness, they crave it. God will give them their heart's desire in the Outer Darkness. But the most important thing is that they will no longer plague us.

When the Rapture comes, the murderous idollators who pretend to be one of us will be snatched away on the express train to Hell. It is not the good that will be taken away, but the evil, after which the remaining people will be very thankful that the deceivers that kept us all down will no longer have place undear Heaven or on the Earth. They will be cut off and cast out into the Abyss of eternal nether gloom.

Maybe Hitler does have a second chance at salvation, but I doubt it because I see no evidence that he every repented of his heinous crimes. Jesus says that even blasphomey against the Son is forgivable, but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is one thing for an atheist to make disparaging remarks about Jesus, but entirely something else when someone who truly believes in God curses Him and fears the Light. They love the shadows, even after the 2nd death they love the Outer Darkness and fear the Light.

So it is not torment in their eyes, it is merely where they long to be. When the time comes and here on Earth is the kingdome of Heaven, there will be no hiding place in the darkness. They will want to move on to their own realm of darkness where they can truly be themselves without hurting anyone.

 

[underheaven]

My problem is with the punishment itself, not the idea of punishment. Why is it good for God to punish people without end? That's ultimately what I've been asking since the beginning. If there is no hope, there is no point to punishing something. God's punishment was to correct His people in the Old Testament, not because God hated His people.

Also, how was my sentence a run on, and how was I yelling? Am I yelling in emotional frustration as a juxtaposition to yourself calmly speaking facts? Should I spew forth pretentious, flowery prose in order to show that I am capable rational thought in this conversation? Should I wait until I'm your age until I am capable to be speaking about eternity, or would I still be too young as I will always be 22 years younger than you. I know you are condescending towards me on account of my age, but I believe I have perfectly valid questions regardless of my age. We all cannot grasp what forever will be like.

Should I accept that God will torture some people forever without end? Is that good news? Its not for those receiving the torture, and for those whose loved ones are those being tortured.

I think that for your ordinary everyday sinner,which we all are in one way or other there will be 'purgatories',places situations of correction,with time to learn and repent,but some have lost all connection to their likeness to
their Creator.Having followed the other one,they are no longer human,and cannot be redeemed. I am very much against the teaching of us being created at birth for that reason.It causes many problems if we were 'created 'at birth ,which are solved by realising that we have been around for some time. If you read some stuff which we can find on the internet nowadays,it is mind boggling the depth and breadth of evil of so called human beings,things that no normal sinner could even have imagined.
I am not talking of the diversions of terrorist threats,but of the people in power in the west,who think they are 'gods' and untouchable.Those will I hope, and similiar, will be removed from contaminating life in heaven for those whom they have plotted against, for so long.And if you believe in God as you say you do, you wil know that He will not condemn for eternity ,if there is any chance of recovery,but some are unrecoverable .

 

[he-man]

You are caught up with the idea of punishment, but eteranal existence of the spirit is not a punishment. I really believe that those mentioned in Jude1:13 are exactly where they want to be. Those who are destined to die the second death have no loved ones. As to the Good News about torture, I don't think that Jude 1:13 says anything about eternal torment (although Revelation does). Jude 1:13 is about people with no love, they can't understand love, only might makes right. I think that Hell is only a torment for saveable souls, for those who cannot be saved, those who fear the Light rather than loving it, they get exactly what they desire. They wouldn't want to go to Heaven anyway, .

Well, you are close and yet so far away..Saved or rescued people do not go to heaven. Heaven will be right here on Earth.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

“The kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.” (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27)

Luke 24: 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them

22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.


Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh:[Jehovah to see to it] as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

And for the unbelieving ones


Mr 4:18 And others are those being sown into the prickle, these are those having heard the word,
19 But the cares of this time period, and the nonsense and the causes that make one yearn concerning wealth, hence together, they suffocate the word and it becomes unfruitful.

29 "But when the fruit is delivered, at once he sends away for the sickle, to stand before the harvest."

Lu 3:17 His winnowing-spade in his hand, he will will gather the seed1 into his repository through purging and cleaning his floor, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire.
1* Greek σείτος σιτάρι seed; cereal; wheat


Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

You are caught up with the idea of punishment, but eteranal existence of the spirit is not a punishment. I really believe that those mentioned in Jude1:13 are exactly where they want to be. Psychopaths don't want company. They lie to everyone they can and manipulate everyone they can, but God will only put up with deceiving spirits for so long before it is finally time, no matter how many innocent souls have sympathy for them.

Actually, I had not idea of your age. Most of the people here are 50+, so I hadn't given your age much thought.

Those who are destined to die the second death have no loved ones. As to the Good News about torture, I don't think that Jude 1:13 says anything about eternal torment (although Revelation does). Jude 1:13 is about people with no love, they can't understand love, only might makes right. I think that Hell is only a torment for saveable souls, for those who cannot be saved, those who fear the Light rather than loving it, they get exactly what they desire. They wouldn't want to go to Heaven anyway, so the Outer Darkness where they will go is like having shades in the noon-day air. They want the Outer Darkness, they crave it. God will give them their heart's desire in the Outer Darkness. But the most important thing is that they will no longer plague us.

When the Rapture comes, the murderous idollators who pretend to be one of us will be snatched away on the express train to Hell. It is not the good that will be taken away, but the evil, after which the remaining people will be very thankful that the deceivers that kept us all down will no longer have place undear Heaven or on the Earth. They will be cut off and cast out into the Abyss of eternal nether gloom.

Maybe Hitler does have a second chance at salvation, but I doubt it because I see no evidence that he every repented of his heinous crimes. Jesus says that even blasphomey against the Son is forgivable, but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is one thing for an atheist to make disparaging remarks about Jesus, but entirely something else when someone who truly believes in God curses Him and fears the Light. They love the shadows, even after the 2nd death they love the Outer Darkness and fear the Light.

So it is not torment in their eyes, it is merely where they long to be. When the time comes and here on Earth is the kingdome of Heaven, there will be no hiding place in the darkness. They will want to move on to their own realm of darkness where they can truly be themselves without hurting anyone.

That is an interesting interpretation. I had considered that somewhat. That is to say, I believed God's grace would always be available, but there would inevitably be some people who STILL refuse to come to Him. The gates may always be open, but not all will be willing to give up the sins holding them back and return to their father. I'm still curious as to how you can really blaspheme the holy spirit, but maybe its something that can only happen in the life to come, once we meet our Creator. I actually kind of agree with you there.

*looks around*

Well the world didn't implode so I guess its okay for me to agree with you there . I am a bit concerned though because you rely a lot on Jude 1:13, assuming that it is talking about a possible reality in the life to come. Can you provide more verses that support Jude 1:13 meaning some people will wander forever in darkness? There are some verses that kind of make that interpretation iffy, such as

Romans 14:11
For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the LORD, every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.'"
(That's from the NLT version. Some versions it says give praise to God, some say will confess to God.)


Like I said, its still a possible interpretation. I'm hoping God will surprise us all when we get to paradise. I'm still open to what people have to say about the afterlife. I believe ultimately I'll have to go with the "I don't know" response, but I do believe God will judge us all one day. Its pretty hard to go wrong if you believe that.