Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Timothew]

There is strong historical evidence that some early Christians looked upon this life as death; Life was something to look forward to, but would be denied those who were deemed unworthy by whichever standard that the particular groups clung to.

From my standpoint there is no argument, certainly nothing that deserves three separate threads

This subject has been argued for 1600 years, and shows no sign of going away anytime soon. I think I shall bow out, but if any want my opinion, feel free to message me.

Please don't go.

I really believe that the church is going to come around to christianity the way it was before it was influenced by Pagan Roman ideas. (Derived from the greek's Plato and Homer.)

I think the church has to come around. The scriptures are too clear if they are read without bias. And we have a Paraclete who will help them understand the scriptures.

I know that it has been 1600 years, but God is faithful and will teach the church if we don't give in to despair. Keep on persevering.

 

[Timothew]

PreChristian Roman figure or Christian?



Roman or Christian?



this one?

With the "Christianization" of Rome, The old religion managed to hang on under new management. Vestals were now nuns and the genii were now angels. Old ideas were held on to along with the new, so they managed to believe that their spirits would go to the heavens AND they would have the resurrection of the body.

Enter the Emperor and all "christians" must believe this way or die.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

If you believe in reincarnation as the Jews do, then this is not an issue. We've all been around for a very long time and have had plenty of time to learn our lesson.

You say that as if all Jews held that belief. Some did, some did not. I wonder why it was never apart of the mainstream Judaism view if reincarnation was supposed to give us ample time to learn our lesson. Speaking of which, its kind of hard to learn your lesson if you don't remember anything about a past life. Shouldn't this be true for everyone?

I know the belief was held by them, that's why the disciples answered that some people thought Jesus was Elijah, or John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets, but it doesn't really make much sense if you think it through. There are some sources that say a soul has three maximum chances in this world, so that still doesn't help the case of eternal torment being a fitting punishment. If reincarnation is unlimited, how do we end up with more people being born each year? The population of living beings on the Earth has been growing, and will continue to grow.

Some cases explain the soul cycle as being like a lit candle lighting another candle. The second candle is of the first candle, but the two are separate. It makes sense in its own way then that souls are spreading new souls, but that doesn't sound like one soul being born over and over to try and purify itself. It just sounds like life produces more life. Each life is of the same essence as the one before it, but is a completely different person.

So basically, it comes to this. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that souls transfer to different bodies. Why has the population of human beings been growing on this Earth if we are supposed to be learning our lesson by being given multiple lives? Why do so many people claim to have a past life, yet so many are completely ignorant about reincarnation or any kind of 'other lives'. Why was Nicodemus questioning Jesus when he said he must be born again? If a soul spreads like a candle, does that mean that the entire human race is connected when it comes to where we'll end up? We're all of the same soul in a sense.

 

[Timothew]

So if you thought they were Mary, Lucifer and Gabriel, well that's completely understandable.

 

[Timothew]

Here's a statue of the man upstairs. No, that's Jupiter, by Jove!

So do we hang onto Pagan Roman Religion or do we go with the religion of the Bible and follow Jesus Christ?

 

[Soulgazer]

Here's a statue of the man upstairs. No, that's Jupiter, by Jove!

So do we hang onto Pagan Roman Religion or do we go with the religion of the Bible and follow Jesus Christ?

You can't separate the two; not and keep the whole Bible, which is an amalgamation of at least four separate and distinct religions. 2nd Peter, 1 & 2 Timothy, & Titus are peculiar to 2nd century catholicism which represented the adoption of Roman and Greek philosophies.

The Gospel of John is peculiar to the Naasene Jews who adopted Greek Philosophy.

Paul was from the Tarsus area, and practiced a form of Judaism that included a demiurge, or "god of this world", and was included only to mollify Marcionite Christians.

Jude and Revelation are representative of the Messianic movement that wished destruction upon their enemies. They also adopted the Greek ideas of afterlife.

The Old Testament represents Temple Judaism which saw no continuance for a person after death what so ever.

It's hard to go backward. If you wish to pick up the candle of the ancient Christians, there is a lot of revisionist history that you will have to let go of. Are you really sure you are prepared to do that?

 

[createdtoworship]

If you look at the site where it came from, you realise that the notion that 'soul' means an 'immaterial part of person' does not fit and 'life' is the correct meaning.



I will ignore the second version as that has already been answered by Timothew. But I have already answered it to Lutherianmafia a few pages ago.

Not being able to kill the soul literally means not being able to extinguish the life. A person is still a 'nephesh' or 'psuche' until decompostion to dust and Jesus was promisng the people martyred for his sake will never lose eternal life for his sake. It does NOT mean by reading into the bible a Platonic soul is surving outside a body and goes some place else.

you have to prove that "life" is better translation, not just speculate.

 

[createdtoworship]

Gradyll, you misrepresent what I believe.

The bible tells us there will be a resurrection on Jesus' return (1 cor 15, John 5:28-29)

Revelations tells us there wil be a new heaven and a new earth and the new city will be our dwelling place directly with God (rev 20-22) which will come OUT of heaven.

You also continously try to read into scripture your understanding of the word 'soul' into the bible when myself and others have shown you it means 'life' , 'living person', 'dead person' or the personal pronoun (I, me) rather than someone in a disembodied state.

Do you belive in the resurrection. I will quote Luther who said along the lines "What is the use of a resurrection if the soul goes to heaven or hell?"

do you, or do you not reject a heavenly eternity? I believe you think it will be on earth and not in heaven. So I don't misrepresent what you believe. (similar the Jehovah's witness)

 

[createdtoworship]

Wow! That is an incredibly biased translation!
Here is the greek for Matthew 10:28,
καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

Is there any reason at all to translate that way except to mislead someone? "bring to the condition of utter ruin and everlasting misery" This would be laughable if it weren't such a shameful translation. None of this is in the greek.
φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ
fear rather the (one) able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Edited to add: here is a webpage on Wuest: Wuest's Expanded Translation of the New Testament
"Sometimes, indeed, one may wonder whether some of the shades of meaning have not been read into the Greek in order to be read out of it." F.F. Bruce

Beegle accuses Wuest of "exaggerated paraphrases," "theological bias," and "faulty concepts of Greek grammar."

FF bruce rejects the johannian comma which has been proven legitimate. So I don't trust everything FF bruce says.

 

[Timothew]

FF bruce rejects the johannian comma which has been proven legitimate. So I don't trust everything FF bruce says.

Wuest isn't wrong just because Bruce disagrees with him. Bruce's criticism is very mild anyway.

Wuest is wrong because his translation of the greek doesn't match up with the words in the greek. I posted the original greek for Matthew 10:28 so you can see for yourself that they don't match up.

The johannian comma is controversial. People could expect to disagree sometimes.

 

[Timothew]

It's hard to go backward. If you wish to pick up the candle of the ancient Christians, there is a lot of revisionist history that you will have to let go of. Are you really sure you are prepared to do that?

It is harder than I thought. I believe that it must be done. I have no wish to be pagan. Revisionist history, by definition must be rejected. I'm looking for the truth, not revised truth.

 

[Timothew]

you have to prove that "life" is better translation, not just speculate.

Life is a better translation, or what do you do with this passage?
John 13:37b-τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω. "I would place down my life for you", now read it as if psychen were Peter's soul. I place down my soul for you? That doesn't read from anyone's world-view.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You say that as if all Jews held that belief. Some did, some did not.

Virtually all rabbi's do, but it is not a required belief among laymen.

I wonder why it was never apart of the mainstream Judaism view if reincarnation was supposed to give us ample time to learn our lesson.

It is a part of mainstream Judaism, it just isn't stresssed or required for laymen to believe.

Speaking of which, its kind of hard to learn your lesson if you don't remember anything about a past life. Shouldn't this be true for everyone?

Deep down inside you know all you need to know about your past lives. Having an intellectual memory wouldn't make that much difference.

I know the belief was held by them, that's why the disciples answered that some people thought Jesus was Elijah, or John the Baptist, or Jeremiah, or one of the other prophets

Both are referred to as Elijah, although John is more often referred to as Elijah. In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus is referred to as Elisha.

but it doesn't really make much sense if you think it through. There are some sources that say a soul has three maximum chances in this world, so that still doesn't help the case of eternal torment being a fitting punishment.

I've never heard of this three incarnation theory and I don't give it any credence.

If reincarnation is unlimited, how do we end up with more people being born each year? The population of living beings on the Earth has been growing, and will continue to grow.

Earth is not the only place to incarnate. This galaxy is teeming with life. So there is a lot of soul migration going on. Secondly, everyone except Christ is a created soul, so new souls are appearing and there was once a time when every soul was brand new.

 

[Timothew]

Earth is not the only place to incarnate. This galaxy is teeming with life. So there is a lot of soul migration going on.

I noticed that too. I can never get a parking space whenever I go there.

 

[LutheranMafia]

"The KJV and many modern versions render kolasin aionioon 'everlasting punishment' , conveying the idea generally interpreted, of torment (basinos). Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the N.T. : Acts 4:21, 2Peter 2:9, and 1John 4:18.

None of these three verses uses the phrase "eternal punishment" the way Matthew 25:46 does. However, 2 Peter 2:9 speaks of punishment on Judgement Day, so clearly it is not speaking of judgement in this life, contrary to your assertion.

It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write , "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds.". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even restrain, is esteemed as punishment; ____ hence has arisen this 3rd metaphorical use of the word." -- - Footnote from the Emphatic Diaglot

Matthew 25:46 is not about what happens to anyone after they die. It is all about how those wicked unrepentant Jews were about to be cut off from, or thrown out of his kingdom. Jesus "came into his own, and his own recieved him not."

Eternal punishment has to be about what happens after we die, unless we are going to live eternally.

Matt. 8:11. "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (This was the entrance of the Gentiles into his kingdom/church)
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This talks about the kingdom of Heaven and dead patriarchs, so clearly it is talking about a time after death. But I don't see why you included the above passage, it has little to do with any of the previous passages.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I noticed that too. I can never get a parking space whenever I go there.

You are so snide about my one and only belief that is not orthodox to Christianity (though it is orthodox Judaism) and yet you have a fit when all of your unorthodox beliefs aren't given reverent respect. Such hypocrisy.

 

[Timothew]

You are so snide about my one and only belief that is not orthodox to Christianity (though it is orthodox Judaism) and yet you have a fit when all of your unorthodox beliefs aren't given reverent respect. Such hypocrisy.

I know, I'm sorry. I can be a jerk. I should not have posted that.

 

[Evergreen48]

It says that they wander for eternity.

Here are some interesting translations of Jude 1:13
wandering stars forever doomed to the darkest pits of hell.
Contemporary English Version

erring stars, to which the tempest of darknesses is kept without end.
Wycliffe New Testament

wandering stars, for whom the nether gloom has been reserved forever.
NASB

"Wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age (aion) hath been kept." .., Youngs Literal Translation

Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their shame; wandering stars for which has been kept the gloom of darkness for the age (aion)." . . Emphatic Diaglot.

Age (aion) -- An indefinite period of time, past, present or future. This is the proper translation of aion. The adjective form of this word is aionios, which has been erroneously translated as 'eternal' or 'everlasting'. But this is old news, since almost every serious student of the Bible knows that this is an improper translation. We do not have its proper equivalent in the English language. Being an adjective and derived from the noun, it cannot properly go beyond its meaning.

There is is also 2 Peter 2:17
These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
Nether gloom and blackest darkness does not mean dead, it means being cast into the Outer Darkness to live out eternity cut off from the Light.

No, it means that we have met with much figurative speech in this passage of scripture. The people under consideration here are not in reality 'springs without water, nor or they 'driven about by a literal storm', and neither are they conscious of 'black darkness' when they die.

 

[Hillsage]

Life is a better translation, or what do you do with this passage?
John 13:37b-τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω. "I would place down my life for you", now read it as if psychen were Peter's soul. I place down my soul for you? That doesn't read from anyone's world-view.

It reads OK from my POV. But like I said before, from my studies, I believe that the soul is the mind/will/emotions and represents the 'motivating life force' of a man and the spirit represents the 'animating life force'. This verse is not saying to 'take the bullet' or lay your life down physically, but mentally or soulishly.

What the above verse is saying to me is lay down your will or 'life motivation' sacrificially and submit to the 'life's motivation' of someone else. Or 'Follow Jesus'...wherever that path leads you.

As an example, wives are to "submit" or 'lay their life motivations' down for their husbands. I don't have to tell you that I'm talking about very strong 'life/motivations' with this analogy. And taking it to the deepest level, one can even say it is the 'motivating soul life' that one abandons when they have 'lost the will to live'. All the while their spirit is still animating their flesh but their zeal for 'this life' is gone. Scripturally we know that what you think 'in the soul', will affect your physical bodies health and contribute to your ultimate death.

3JO 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Medically this is related to the field of PNI or psycho neuro immunology. This is a relatively new field of medicine which truly lines up with the admonitions of scripture and health.

 

[Soulgazer]

It is harder than I thought. I believe that it must be done. I have no wish to be pagan. Revisionist history, by definition must be rejected. I'm looking for the truth, not revised truth.

If early Christianity were a round of ammunition, it would be a shot shell loaded with turkey shot. Nearly from the moment of the crucifixion, a myriad of religions sprang up around Jesus. Every one has some overlapping theologies, as well as some that don't. Gentiles who followed Paul, (which is the one I follow) believed in a demiurge and rejected the Torah. Their God was 100% Good and incapable of evil.

To pick a Jewish one, you would also have to investigate the region that the particular Jewish Christians came from. The Naasene Jews also believed in a demiurge, as well as those from the Tarsus region, like Paul.

The Christian Jews from the Tarsus area believed Jesus replaced the Torah.
The Christian Jews from the Antioch region believed that Jesus fulfilled the Torah.

The Sethian Christian Jews believed that Jesus was the incarnation of Seth.
The Naasene Christian Jews believed that Jesus was the Son of Man prophesied in Enoch.

Then when you follow the Gentiles, you will find that the belief splinters even more.

I tell you all of this just so you will know that you have a long hard row to hoe. It was all prophesied:

{Jesus said}"Let not the Kingdom of Heaven wither away. For it is like a date palm shoot whose fruits poured down around it. It put forth leaves and, when they budded, they caused the productivity of the date palm to dry up. Thus it is also with the fruit which came from this single root; when the fruit was picked, fruits were collected by many harvesters. It would indeed be good if it were possible to produce these new plants now; for then you would find the Kingdom." ~Secret James


We interpret it thusly: The Date Palm was Judaism, which dried up. The fruits were the apostles and evangelists. The harvest are the myriads that go into the differing splinters(denominations).