Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Timothew]

how can destruction be everlasting? The Bible says that the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only to torment them. Destruction is one time. BUt if it says eternal destruction then the soul is not destroyed temporarily.

How can destruction not be everlasting? If something is destroyed, it is gone forever unless it is remade. The bible does NOT say that "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them". You need to supply chapter and verse for this claim.

 

[createdtoworship]

How can destruction not be everlasting? If something is destroyed, it is gone forever unless it is remade. The bible does NOT say that "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them". You need to supply chapter and verse for this claim.

here is a verse that pre dates greek mythology

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

 

[Timothew]

here is a verse that pre dates greek mythology

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Thank you, as you can see this refutes the theory of eternal torment.

The worms are eating carcases, not conscious people. The fires are burning carcases, not living people. Also read the context. These are people who have been slain by the Lord. They are not living after they have been slain.

It was not until greek mythology began to influence God's people that they started to accept the myth of eternal torment as found in greek mythology.

BTW, did you find the chapter and verse for this bold claim: "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them"?

 

[createdtoworship]

Thank you, as you can see this refutes the theory of eternal torment.

The worms are eating carcases, not conscious people. The fires are burning carcases, not living people. Also read the context. These are people who have been slain by the Lord. They are not living after they have been slain.

It was not until greek mythology began to influence God's people that they started to accept the myth of eternal torment as found in greek mythology.

BTW, did you find the chapter and verse for this bold claim: "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them"?

the fires are not quenched, that proves that the torment does not end. This is a good verse still. But here is another reference to the Isaiah verse Jesus quoted regarding hell (so you are wrong)

"Mark 9:43-47

King James Version (KJV)

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:"



and some more:


This then is how Jesus spoke of hell. Jesus said that...

hell and fire go together as "hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
hell is a place of "fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
hell is the "furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50

hell is "the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
hell is the place where "the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
hell is a place of "everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

hell is "damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
hell is the "damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
hell is the place of "eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
hell is the "resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

in hell "their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

in hell there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
in hell there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30

hell is a "place of torment" Luke 16:28
hell will have various "torments" Luke 16:23 (note that "torments" is in the plural)
hell is the place where the damned will be "tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

hell is a place of "outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

hell will be "everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

 

[Hillsage]

I believe we can reason together and come up with a biblical understanding of what happens after death.

I disagree, I don't think understanding can come from reason...or from rote, or memorization, or by inductive bible study. I think that 'true' understanding can only come by revelation.

"Reasoning together" has resulted in what we have now, 666 different denominations who agree with their doctrinal box and think they're all orthodox and we're anathema.

I believe Paul's letters are authentic, and the 4 gospels. I accept the current canon as authentic, written by apostles, or close associates (Luke-Acts).

I was admittedly shocked in a NT class this spring where it was revealed that many modern scholars are in agreement that there is no proof that any of the gospels were written by their 'tradition' based authors. The names were added 150 years after the letters were written. Your comment on "close associates", or pseudonyms is probably more correct answer. As a surprise to me, a number of books are disputed concerning authorship.

 

[Hillsage]

the fires are not quenched, that proves that the torment does not end. This is a good verse still. But here is another reference to the Isaiah verse Jesus quoted regarding hell (so you are wrong)

No, it proves that the fire won't be put out "quenched" before it finishes burning that which fuels it. This verse only says it is "better" to deal with your flesh here and now than to have to have it dealt with by the fire of the next age before you can enter into life...after death and hell are destroyed in our God who is a "consuming fire"/"lake of fire".

"Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Saying "it is better/kalos"is not in agreement with your view of 'It's now or never.'

2570 kalos: prop. beautiful, but chiefly (fig) good (lit or mor) ie valuable or virtuous (for appearance or use)

 

[createdtoworship]

No, it proves that the fire won't be put out "quenched" before it finishes burning that which fuels it.

thats an assumption as spiritual fire doesn't need fuel. Angels are spirits that hell was created for. You have no evidence of this.

 

[Timothew]

the fires are not quenched, that proves that the torment does not end. This is a good verse still. But here is another reference to the Isaiah verse Jesus quoted regarding hell (so you are wrong)

"Mark 9:43-47

King James Version (KJV)

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:"

I know that I will never convince you, but just as an exercise in scripture reading, here goes. Did you notice how Jesus said "enter into life"? How does one enter into life after they have died? I say it is the resurrection. What happens if someone doesn't enter into life? They remain dead or they enter into death. So the verses you posted actually refute the theory of eternal torment.

and some more:

This then is how Jesus spoke of hell. Jesus said that...
hell and fire go together as "hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47

Matthew 5:22 doesn't say Hell-Fire, its says the fire of Gehenna. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, not a fiery cavern underground.
Matthew 18:9 contrasts "entering into life" with being "thrown into Gehenna's fire". Since this is a contrast, we know that being thrown into Gehenna'a fire is the same thing as not entering into life. It is a way of saying they will not receive eternal life. Not receiving life is being dead.
Mark 9:47 is a synoptic verse which throws more light on this point. Either one enters God's Kingdom (receiving eternal life) or one is cast into Gehenna. Remember that Gehenna is the valley outside of Jerusalem. So you enter Jerusalem (symbolic of God's Kingdom and eternal life) or you are left outside of Jerusalem (symbolic of being outside of God's Kingdom and not receiving eternal life). Remember that not having life, eternal life or otherwise is the condition of being dead.

hell is "the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
hell is the place where "the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
hell is a place of "everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41

Saying that the fire is never put out is a very different thing than saying the torture never ends.

hell is "damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
hell is the "damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
hell is the place of "eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
hell is the "resurrection of damnation" John 5:29

Matt 23:14?
Mark 12:40 Damnation? They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.”
You really assume too much.
Matt 23:33 Gehenna, being left out of God's kingdom of life. Not "damnation of hell."
John 5:29 "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." Not a "resurrection of damnation". This verse is true, and the judgment is death, just as Jesus says (and Paul). “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (Paul: the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ)

in hell "their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48

Jesus said Gehenna, not Hell. Jesus was quoting Isaiah which refers to dead bodies not living souls of the damned. Anyway these verses contrast entering into life with being left iin the valley of Gehenna where the dead bodies are burned.

hell is a "place of torment" Luke 16:28
hell will have various "torments" Luke 16:23 (note that "torments" is in the plural)
hell is the place where the damned will be "tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24

This is from the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. It is a parable about riches, NOT a hell travel-log.

hell is a place of "outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13

hell will be "everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

Death is outer darkness, left out of eternal life in God's Kingdom.
Death is an everlasting punishment for those who do not receive eternal life.

Wailing and gnashing teeth is an appropriate response for those who just discovered that they will miss out on eternal life and receive death instead.

Angels are spirits that hell was created for.

Angel spirits are the fuel that fires hell? I've never heard that one before. but you have no evidence of this of course.

 

[Timothew]

BTW, did you find the chapter and verse for this bold claim: "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them"?

 

[createdtoworship]

I know that I will never convince you, but just as an exercise in scripture reading, here goes. Did you notice how Jesus said "enter into life"? How does one enter into life after they have died? I say it is the resurrection. What happens if someone doesn't enter into life? They remain dead or they enter into death. So the verses you posted actually refute the theory of eternal torment.


Matthew 5:22 doesn't say Hell-Fire, its says the fire of Gehenna. Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem, not a fiery cavern underground.
Matthew 18:9 contrasts "entering into life" with being "thrown into Gehenna's fire". Since this is a contrast, we know that being thrown into Gehenna'a fire is the same thing as not entering into life. It is a way of saying they will not receive eternal life. Not receiving life is being dead.
Mark 9:47 is a synoptic verse which throws more light on this point. Either one enters God's Kingdom (receiving eternal life) or one is cast into Gehenna. Remember that Gehenna is the valley outside of Jerusalem. So you enter Jerusalem (symbolic of God's Kingdom and eternal life) or you are left outside of Jerusalem (symbolic of being outside of God's Kingdom and not receiving eternal life). Remember that not having life, eternal life or otherwise is the condition of being dead.


Saying that the fire is never put out is a very different thing than saying the torture never ends.


Matt 23:14?
Mark 12:40 Damnation? They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.”
You really assume too much.
Matt 23:33 Gehenna, being left out of God's kingdom of life. Not "damnation of hell."
John 5:29 "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." Not a "resurrection of damnation". This verse is true, and the judgment is death, just as Jesus says (and Paul). “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." (Paul: the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ)


Jesus said Gehenna, not Hell. Jesus was quoting Isaiah which refers to dead bodies not living souls of the damned. Anyway these verses contrast entering into life with being left iin the valley of Gehenna where the dead bodies are burned.


This is from the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man. It is a parable about riches, NOT a hell travel-log.


Death is outer darkness, left out of eternal life in God's Kingdom.
Death is an everlasting punishment for those who do not receive eternal life.

Wailing and gnashing teeth is an appropriate response for those who just discovered that they will miss out on eternal life and receive death instead.


Angel spirits are the fuel that fires hell? I've never heard that one before. but you have no evidence of this of course.

there are many people that say the valley of gehannah was a myth and that there was no burning heap there and that there is no historical evidence for it. So I guess Jesus was simply talking about the real hell.

 

[Timothew]

there are many people that say the valley of gehannah was a myth and that there was no burning heap there and that there is no historical evidence for it. So I guess Jesus was simply talking about the real hell.

If the unbiblical thought of eternal torment in "the real hell" comforts you, then go be happy with that thought.

Jeremiah made reference of the valley of gehenna, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. Jeremiah 7:31-32
"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere."

So I guess Jesus was really talking about a real valley that really exists outside of Jerusalem and not some fantasy fairyland place of eternal torture invented by sadists.

 

[createdtoworship]

If the unbiblical thought of eternal torment in "the real hell" comforts you, then go be happy with that thought.

Jeremiah made reference of the valley of gehenna, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom. Jeremiah 7:31-32
"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere."

So I guess Jesus was really talking about a real valley that really exists outside of Jerusalem and not some fantasy fairyland place of eternal torture invented by sadists.

but there is no burning trash heap that was invented in the 13th century I think. The fires were because they would heat up the arms of molech and put there babies on the arms. But the eternal fires are not spoken of historically. Molech would eventually cool off and not be hot anymore. So Jesus was speaking of real Hell in all those places.

BiblePlaces Blog: The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

 

[Timothew]

but there is no burning trash heap that was invented in the 13th century I think. The fires were because they would heat up the arms of molech and put there babies on the arms. But the eternal fires are not spoken of historically. Molech would eventually cool off and not be hot anymore. So Jesus was speaking of real Hell in all those places.

BiblePlaces Blog: The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna

I didn't say that there was a burning trash heap in gehenna. The fires did not burn trash.

Jesus was saying that it would be better to enter into life with one hand or one eye than to be burned up in Gehenna, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, where people were sacrificed to Molech in fire which is not quenched until the carcass is completely consumed. Where the worm does not die before he has completely consumed the carcass.

The picture is the same as the picture of Sodom which was consumed in an eternal unquenchable fire. Sodom was completely destroyed. Sodom is not currently burning, it has been destroyed. Eternally Destroyed.

 

[Timothew]

You described the sacrifice to Molech, putting babies on the fiery arms of "Molech".

The fires were because they would heat up the arms of molech and put there babies on the arms.

But God said that setting people on fire is something that would never enter His mind to do. See Jeremiah 32:33 "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin."

God does not torture people in fire or cause them to be tortured in fire for all eternity. Such a thing has not entered His mind, according to the Scriptures.

 

[Timothew]

BTW, did you find the chapter and verse for this bold claim: "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them"?

 

[createdtoworship]

I didn't say that there was a burning trash heap in gehenna. The fires did not burn trash.

Jesus was saying that it would be better to enter into life with one hand or one eye than to be burned up in Gehenna, the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, where people were sacrificed to Molech in fire which is not quenched until the carcass is completely consumed. Where the worm does not die before he has completely consumed the carcass.

The picture is the same as the picture of Sodom which was consumed in an eternal unquenchable fire. Sodom was completely destroyed. Sodom is not currently burning, it has been destroyed. Eternally Destroyed.

sodom is not eternally destroyed either....

When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. ezekiel 16:55

so it's talking about eternal hell there too.

 

[createdtoworship]

BTW, did you find the chapter and verse for this bold claim: "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them"?

i've been quoting verses you just don't like them....

 

[createdtoworship]

You described the sacrifice to Molech, putting babies on the fiery arms of "Molech".
But God said that setting people on fire is something that would never enter His mind to do. See Jeremiah 32:33 "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin."

God does not torture people in fire or cause them to be tortured in fire for all eternity. Such a thing has not entered His mind, according to the Scriptures.

God allowed that to happen! And he will again. and again and again.

it's all over the Bible!

 

[Timothew]

i've been quoting verses you just don't like them....

I didn't see the one that said "the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only torment them."

Would you mind reposting that verse?

 

[Timothew]

God allowed that to happen! And he will again. and again and again.

it's all over the Bible!

Great, then show a few examples.