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Let's Talk About Hell (3)

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LutheranMafia

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Here's a site from some internet dude that refutes the sites from your internet dude refuting annihilation: Jon's Journey: Does Scripture say Hell is Eternal Punishment?

:wave:
I noticed two things about this sight. First, it never mentions Jude 1:12-13, which is impossible to explain away. Second, it mentions Matthew 25:46 as being, "harder to explain away".
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matthew 25:46

 
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LutheranMafia

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Matthew 10:29
ὁ εὑρὼν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἀπολέσει αὐτήν, καὶ ὁ ἀπολέσας τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν.

Whoever finds his psyche (soul, life) loses it, and whoever loses his psyche (soul, life) for my sake, finds it.

This doesn't make any sense if pysche is translated soul, the wispy immaterial part of someone that survives his death. But if psyche is really a person's life, then it makes a lot of sense since Jesus will return us to life in the resurrection on the last day. But whoever seeks to save his own life by denying Jesus Christ in this lifetime will lose out on the resurrection to eternal life. So whoever seeks to find his life will lose it in the end, on the last day.
I can believe that the soul is more closely bound to the physical existence than the spirit. Never the less the spirit survives death and is indestructible, even in the face of the second death the spirit still survives, so how much less unlikely that the spirit survives physical death?
 
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Timothew

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I noticed two things about this sight. First, it never mentions Jude 1:12-13, which is impossible to explain away. Second, it mentions Matthew 25:46 as being, "harder to explain away".
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matthew 25:46


I'm not following you :confused:

Jude is totally for us and against eternal conscious torment.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Dead, twice dead, empty (clouds without rain). They are dead, not alive in torment. They have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matthew 25:46

For someone with no understanding of greek, this would be difficult to understand. But the word translated punishment is κόλασιν and comes from the word κολάζω and means to be cut off. So they go away to be cut off, eternally. Cut off eternally means to be dead, as opposed to the others who go away into eternal life. The verse actually supports conditional immortality very well.
 
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Mikecpking

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your correct so far, but what do you do about this verse

Jesus said, "The man who loves his life [psuche] will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life" (John 12:25).

Exactly that. Eternal life is recieved. 'Psuche' here is tranlated with the correct emphasis as 'life' and not 'soul' in the Platonic sense. Jesus is promising eternal life, but is not saying someone is losing his soul!
 
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Mikecpking

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But there is Matthew 10:28, which specifies explicitly that the soul can exist without the body and is only destroyed with the body in the case of people who sin very gravely:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
So very clearly the soul can survive the death of the body.

I noticed that even though you refer to the word psyche repeatedly, you don't have a sinle NT verse in there. The word psyche in Greek has a more narrow meaning than the word nephesh in Hebrew. The word nephesh has a whole range of meanings and is harder to pin down, but the word psyche in Greek is more clear cut. It is easier to address the point in Greek.

However, even in Hebrew it is clear that the soul, while at times referring to the whole being, can also refer to part of the essence that survives death, because the soul goes to Sheol. (Note that the spirit/ruach is not associated with Sheol and is a separate part of the essence of living beings that survives death.)

Hi Lutherianmafia,
You have to understand that 'soul' in the bible is NOT the immaterial part of a person that somehow encapsulates the person's thoughts, memories to transcend the death of a person. It simply must be understood in the context of the definitions I posted a few days ago.

More from the word study including the Matt 10:28.

The Soul - New Testament (33 Verses)
"Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child’s life (psuche)" (Mat. 2:20). [People can look for "souls" in order to take them somewhere.]
"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life (psuche), what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life (psuche) more than meat, and the body than raiment" (Mat. 6:25). ["Souls" can eat.]
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (psuche): but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (psuche) and body in hell" (Mat. 10:28). [God won't just destroy the body in hellfire. He'll destroy the "soul" too.]
"He that findeth his life (psuche) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it" (Mat. 10:39). [People can both find and lose their "soul." If they find their "soul," they'll lose it, but if they lose their "soul" for Jesus's sake, they'll find it.]
"For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it" (Mat. 16:25). [People can both save and lose their "soul." Those who do save their "soul" will lose it, and those who lose their "soul" will find it.]
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life (psuche) a ransom for many" (Mat. 20:28). [Jesus paid someone His "soul" as a ransom for us.]
"And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life (psuche), or to kill? But they held their peace" (Mark 3:4). [Physically saving a "soul" is the opposite of killing it.]
"For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life (psuche) for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it" (Mark 8:35). [People can both save and lose their "soul." Those who do save their "soul" will lose it, but those who lose their "soul" for the sake of the gospel will save it.]

As you can see, to read into the bible 'psuche' the idea of the Plato soul does not work.
 
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Mikecpking

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I can believe that the soul is more closely bound to the physical existence than the spirit. Never the less the spirit survives death and is indestructible, even in the face of the second death the spirit still survives, so how much less unlikely that the spirit survives physical death?

The spirit is indestructable as it is simply God's breath that is breathed into all people.

All the while my breath (neshamah, pnoe) is in me, and the spirit (ruach, pneuma) of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3). [The "spirit" lives in the nose.]
"The Spirit (neshamah, pnoe) of God hath made me, and the breath (ruach, pneuma) of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job 33:4). [God's "spirit" gives us life.]
 
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createdtoworship

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Exactly that. Eternal life is recieved. 'Psuche' here is tranlated with the correct emphasis as 'life' and not 'soul' in the Platonic sense. Jesus is promising eternal life, but is not saying someone is losing his soul!

but you don't believe you are going to heaven and you don't believe in a heavenly after life do you?

So how does this verse apply to you , one who does not believe in the heavenly after life?
 
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createdtoworship

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"He that findeth his life (psuche) shall lose it: and he that loseth his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it" (Mat. 10:39). [People can both find and lose their "soul." If they find their "soul," they'll lose it, but if they lose their "soul" for Jesus's sake, they'll find it.]
"For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (psuche) for my sake shall find it" (Mat. 16:25). [People can both save and lose their "soul." Those who do save their "soul" will lose it, and those who lose their "soul" will find it.]
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life (psuche) a ransom for many" (Mat. 20:28). [Jesus paid someone His "soul" as a ransom for us.]
"And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life (psuche), or to kill? But they held their peace" (Mark 3:4). [Physically saving a "soul" is the opposite of killing it.]
"For whosoever will save his life (psuche) shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life (psuche) for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it" (Mark 8:35). [People can both save and lose their "soul." Those who do save their "soul" will lose it, but those who lose their "soul" for the sake of the gospel will save it.]

As you can see, to read into the bible 'psuche' the idea of the Plato soul does not work.

your word study states that soul is better than life in many places. I don't know if that is true but it's what it says.

what do you do about this verse

Mathew 10:28 ‘And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.' Youngs literal translation

wuest translation

And stop fearing those who kill the body but do not have the power to kill the soul. But rather be fearing him who has power to bring both soul and body to the condition of utter ruin and everlasting misery in hell.
 
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createdtoworship

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The Church has always held tenaciously to the teaching that the punishment of those who enter eternity unsaved, is unending. There is abundant evidence in the apocryphal literature of Israel to show that that nation believed and taught the same thing. Of late, however, the assertion is being made that this punishment is for a limited time only, this contention being based upon the statement that the two Greek words used to describe this punishment, refer to a limited period of time. These two words are, the noun, aion (αἰον), and the adjective, aionios (αἰονιος).
We submit Moulton and Milligan in their Vocabulary of the Greek Testament as our first authority. The work of these scholars is recognized as the latest advance in New Testament research, since it is based upon the study of the Greek secular documents known as “The Papyri.” These latter are the last court of appeal on the usage of Greek words in the first century. They give two uses for aion (αἰον). In a phrase from one of these early manuscripts, “For the rest of your life,” aion (αἰον) refers to a limited period of time. A public meeting at Oxyrhynchus was punctuated with cries of “The Emperors forever,” where aion (αἰον) has the meaning of “unending.”
They have this to say about aionios (αἰονιος). “Without pronouncing any opinion on the special meaning which theologians have found for this word, we must note that outside the New Testament, in the vernacular as well as in classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus. It is a standing epithet of the emperor’s power.” Webster’s International Dictionary derives our English word “perpetual,” meaning “continuing forever, everlasting, eternal, unceasing” (its own definition), from this Latin word perpetuus. They give as an illustration of the use of aionios (αἰονιος) the sentence, “I confess that I should show myself grateful for your loving-kindness forever.” Their closing comment on aionios (αἰονιος) is, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.” Our next authority is Biblico-Theological Lexicon of New Testament Greek, by Herman Cremer, D.D. He says of aion (αἰον): “In early Greek especially, and still also in Attic, aion (αἰον) signifies the duration of human life as limited to a certain space of time, hence the meanings, the duration of life, course of life, term of life, lifetime, life in its temporal form. From this original limitation of the conception to human life, it may be explained how it sometimes denotes the space of a human life, a human generation. Accordingly, the expansion of the conception of time unlimited was easy, for it simply involved the abstraction of the idea of limitation, and thus the word came to mean unlimited duration. Inasmuch, therefore, as aion (αἰον) may denote either the duration of a definite space of time, or the (unending) duration of time in general, both future and past, according to the context, it was the proper term for rendering the Hebrew olam (ὀλαμ),—for which the LXX (Greek translation of Old Testament) used it constantly, the only distinction being that the Hebrew word meant primarily, a remote, veiled, undefined, and therefore, unlimited time, past or future, and only secondarily, a definite (especially future) period whose limits must be ascertained by the context.”
As to aionios (αἰονιος), Cremer has but these brief words: “Aionios (Ἀιονιος) refers to time in its duration, constant, abiding, eternal.”
We come now to the testimony of A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament by Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D. He gives as the first meaning of aion (αἰον), age, a human lifetime, life itself, and for the second meaning, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. His meanings of aionios (αἰονιος) are, first, without beginning or end, that which has always been and always will be, second, without beginning, third, without end, never to cease, everlasting. When comparing the synonyms, aidios (αἰδιος) and aionios (αἰονιος) he says, “aidios (αἰδιος) covers the complete philosophical idea—without beginning and without end; also either without beginning or without end, as respects the past; it is applied to what has existed time out of mind. Aionios (Ἀιονιος) (from Plato on) gives prominence to the immeasurableness of eternity (while such words as suneches (συνεχες), continuous, unintermitted, diateles (διατελες), perpetual, lasting to the end, are not so applicable to an abstract term, like aion (αἰον)); aionios (αἰονιος) accordingly is especially adapted to supersensuous things.”
Finally, we quote Liddell and Scott in their Greek-English Lexicon (classical). Aion (Ἀιον) means a space or period of time, a lifetime, life, an age, generation, an indefinitely long time, a space of time, eternity. Aionios (Ἀιονιος) means lasting, eternal Dr. E. B. Pusey* quotes J. Reddel, the best Greek Oxford scholar of his day as stating that aionios (αἰονιος) in classical Greek was used strictly of eternity, an eternal existence, such as shall be, when time shall be no more. These authorities agree on the two meanings of aion (αἰον), that of a limited space of time, and that of eternity, never ending, everlasting, the meaning to be used in any particular instance to be determined by the context in which it is found. They also agree upon the meaning of aionios (αἰονιος), that it refers to time in its duration, constant, abiding, eternal, continuing forever, everlasting. Our next step will be to show that in certain passages in the New Testament where aion (αἰον) appears, it cannot be used in its meaning of “a limited space of time,” but can only mean “eternal.” These passages have to do with the being of the Son of God, His reign, His glory, His throne, His priesthood, His post-resurrection life, none of which is of limited duration, for everything about God is of infinite proportions. These are Luke 1:33, 55; John 8:35 (second occurrence), 12:34; Romans 1:25, 9:5, 11:36, 16:27; II Corinthians 11:31; Galatians 1:5; Ephesians 3:11; Philippians 4:20; I Timothy 1:17; II Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 1:8; 5:6, 6:20, 7:17, 21, 24, 28; 13:8, 21; I Peter 4:11, 5:11; II Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:6, 18, 4:9, 10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7. Instances where aionios (αἰονιος) is used, and where it can only mean “eternal,” because its context speaks of the being of God, the glory of God, and the covenant of blood are Romans 16:26; Hebrews 9:14; 13:20, I Peter 5:10. This establishes the fact that the New Testament usage of aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) includes their meaning of “eternal,” whatever other meanings the former might have in other contexts such as those of “a limited period of time” (Colossians 1:26), or “an age as characterized by a certain system of evil” (Ro mans 12:2). As to aionios (αἰονιος), the only places in the New Testament where it is translated by any other words than “eternal” or “everlasting” are Romans 16:25, II Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2 where it is rendered by the word “world.” But even here it refers to “that which is anterior to the most remote period in the past conceivable by any imagination that man knows of” (Expositor’s Greek Testament), namely, to the eternity before time began as we know it, time which runs concurrently with the created universe and the affairs of the human race. Thus, both aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) are used in the New Testament in their meanings of “everlasting” and “eternal.”
Now we come to the passages in the New Testament where aionios (αἰονιος) is used in connection with the life God gives the believer when He saves him. We have seen that this word is used in connection with the being of God, and that it can only mean “eternal” in this case. But the life which God gives the believer is Christ (Col. 3:4), which means that aionios (αἰονιος) when it describes the life given the believer, must mean “eternal,” which agrees with the uniform meaning given by the four Greek authorities quoted. In all its occurrences in the New Testament, aionios (αἰονιος) never refers to a limited extent of time, but always to that which is eternal or everlasting. Even in Romans 16:25, II Timothy 1:9, and Titus 1:2, it refers to the eternity before time began. For the benefit of the student who does not have access to a Greek concordance, we list the passages where aionios (αἰονιος) is used in connection with the life given the believer; Mark 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25, 18:18, 30; John 3:15, 16, 36, 4:14, 36, 5:24, 39, 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68, 10:28, 12:25, 50, 17:2, 3; Acts 13:46, 48; Romans 2:7, 5:21, 6:22, 23; II Corinthians 4:17, 18; 5:1; Galatians 6:8; I Timothy 1:16, 6:12; II Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:2, 3:7; Hebrews 5:9, 9:12; I Peter 5:10; I John 1:2, 2:25, 3:15, 5:11, 13, 20; Jude 21. This brings us to the places where aion (αἰον) is used in connection with this same life, and because this life is eternal, aion (αἰον) must mean “eternal” here, not “an age”; Mark 10:17; John 4:14, 6:51, 58, 8:51, 52, 10:28, 11:26. We have found that the life God gives the believer is described by two words, aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος), both meaning “eternal.” We notice now the statement of our Lord in Matthew 25:46 “These shall go away into aionios (αἰονιος) everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life (aionios (αἰονιος)) eternal.” Aionios (Ἀιονιος) means “eternal” when used with the word “life.” Does it mean “eternal” when used with the word “punishment”?
But now we will let Dr. E. B. Pusey speak,* as he quotes Augustine on this passage, and then adds his own comment. Augustine said of this text, “What a thing it is, to account eternal punishment to be a fire of long duration, and eternal life to be without end, since Christ comprised both in that very same place, in one and the same sentence, saying, ‘These shall go into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.’ If both are eternal, either both must be understood to be lasting with an end, or both perpetual without end. For like is related to like; on the one side, eternal punishment; on the other side, eternal life. But to say in one and the same sentence, life eternal shall be without end, punishment eternal shall have an end, were too absurd: whence, since the eternal life of the saints shall be without end, punishment eternal too shall doubtless have no end to those whose it shall be.” Dr. Pusey adds the following to Augustine’s words: “The argument is not merely from language. It has a moral and religious aspect. Any ordinary writer who drew a contrast between two things, would, if he wished to be understood, use the self-same word in the self-same sense. He would avoid ambiguity. If he did not, we should count him ignorant of language, or if it were intentional, dishonest. I ask, ‘In what matter of this world would you trust one who in any matter of this world, should use the self-same word in two distinct senses in the self-same sentence, without giving any hint that he was so doing?’ In none. Find any case in which you would trust a man who did so in the things of men, and then ascribe it to your God in the things of God. I could not trust man. I could not believe it of my God.”
It remains for us to examine the New Testament passages where aion (αἰον) and aionios (αἰονιος) are used of the future punishment of the lost. We will look first at those passages which contain aionios (αἰονιος). In Matthew 18:8 the phrase “everlasting fire” is in the Greek “the fire which is everlasting.” The use of the definite article shows that this passage does not refer to fire in general but to a particular fire (Rev. 20:10). This fire will burn forever and is unquenchable (Mark 9:43). Matthew 25:41 tells us that this everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. The word “prepared” in the Greek is in the perfect tense, which tense speaks of a past complete action that has present results. The Lake of Fire had been prepared before our Lord spoke these words, and is now in existence. The fires of this lake are not purifying but punitive. That is, their purpose is not to purify the wicked dead in order that they might be brought to repentance and faith with the result that they will all be finally saved, as those teach who advocate the universal restoration of the entire human race. They are for the punishment of Satan and his fallen angels, and for those of the human race who enter eternity in a lost condition. Matthew 25:46 has been dealt with above.
As to Mark 3:29, the best Greek texts have “sin” instead of “damnation,” which latter word appears in the a.v., as the translation of a Greek word meaning “judgment,” and which is a rejected reading. The words “in danger of” are from a Greek word which refers to anyone “held in anything so that he cannot escape.” Thus the one who committed the sin referred to in this passage is in the grasp of an eternal sin, the sin being eternal, not in the sense of eternally repeating itself, but in that it is eternal in its guilt. Such a sin demands eternal punishment. In II Thessalonians 1:9 we have “everlasting destruction.” The Greek word translated “destruction” does not mean “annihilation.” Moulton and Milligan define its first century Biblical usage as follows: “ruin, the loss of all that gives worth to existence.” Thayer in his lexicon gives the meanings “ruin, destruction, death.” The word comes from the verb meaning “to destroy.” But to destroy something does not mean to put it out of existence, but to ruin it, to reduce it to such form that it loses all that gave worth to its existence. One may burn down a beautiful mansion. The materials which composed it are still in existence, a heap of ashes, but it is destroyed in that it cannot be used as a home any more. It is in such form that it has lost all that gave worth to its existence as a mansion. The eternal condition of the lost will be one of utter ruin, a condition in which the soul lives forever in a state devoid of all that makes existence worthwhile.
In Hebrews 6:2 we have “eternal judgment.” The word “judgment” here is from a Greek word that refers to a condemnatory sentence, aionios (αἰονιος) being used to teach that this sentence is eternal in that the punishment it prescribes is unending. In Jude 7 we have lost human beings condemned to the same everlasting fire which has been prepared for Satan and the fallen angels, the latter in verse 6 being reserved for the Great White Throne judgment and the fire prepared for them (Matt. 25:41).

Wuest, Kenneth S.: Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English Reader. Grand Rapids : Eerdmans, 1997, c1984, S. Treasures from the Greek New Testament: p.34-43
 
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Timothew

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wuest translation

And stop fearing those who kill the body but do not have the power to kill the soul. But rather be fearing him who has power to bring both soul and body to the condition of utter ruin and everlasting misery in hell.

Wow! That is an incredibly biased translation!
Here is the greek for Matthew 10:28,
καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

Is there any reason at all to translate that way except to mislead someone? "bring to the condition of utter ruin and everlasting misery" This would be laughable if it weren't such a shameful translation. None of this is in the greek.
φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ
fear rather the (one) able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.

Edited to add: here is a webpage on Wuest: http://www.bible-researcher.com/wuest.html
"Sometimes, indeed, one may wonder whether some of the shades of meaning have not been read into the Greek in order to be read out of it." F.F. Bruce

Beegle accuses Wuest of "exaggerated paraphrases," "theological bias," and "faulty concepts of Greek grammar."
 
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Lord Herdsetk

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K, thought I'd jump back in here.

It seems like we've established that death leads to a place reserving those in it for judgement day. I think a good question to be asking is this; In Revelations it mentions how Satan, along with the beast and the false prophet, are to be tormented in the pool of fire forever. We read that the dead, along with Death and Hades, are to be thrown in it as well. Why do we automatically assume that means that the humans being thrown into the pool of fire are going to be tortured without end? I thought Judgement day was a day of rewards and punishment, each according to what they have done (Romans 2:6). For us to live such short finite lives, why would eternal torment be a fitting punishment? If eon means an undetermined period of time, wouldn't it seem like a person's judgement, should they choose not to accept Christ, would be undetermined but limited instead of infinite?

:confused:
 
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Mikecpking

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but you don't believe you are going to heaven and you don't believe in a heavenly after life do you?

So how does this verse apply to you , one who does not believe in the heavenly after life?

Gradyll, you misrepresent what I believe.

The bible tells us there will be a resurrection on Jesus' return (1 cor 15, John 5:28-29)

Revelations tells us there wil be a new heaven and a new earth and the new city will be our dwelling place directly with God (rev 20-22) which will come OUT of heaven.

You also continously try to read into scripture your understanding of the word 'soul' into the bible when myself and others have shown you it means 'life' , 'living person', 'dead person' or the personal pronoun (I, me) rather than someone in a disembodied state.

Do you belive in the resurrection. I will quote Luther who said along the lines "What is the use of a resurrection if the soul goes to heaven or hell?"
 
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Mikecpking

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your word study states that soul is better than life in many places. I don't know if that is true but it's what it says.

If you look at the site where it came from, you realise that the notion that 'soul' means an 'immaterial part of person' does not fit and 'life' is the correct meaning.

what do you do about this verse

Mathew 10:28 ‘And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.' Youngs literal translation

wuest translation

And stop fearing those who kill the body but do not have the power to kill the soul. But rather be fearing him who has power to bring both soul and body to the condition of utter ruin and everlasting misery in hell.

I will ignore the second version as that has already been answered by Timothew. But I have already answered it to Lutherianmafia a few pages ago.

Not being able to kill the soul literally means not being able to extinguish the life. A person is still a 'nephesh' or 'psuche' until decompostion to dust and Jesus was promisng the people martyred for his sake will never lose eternal life for his sake. It does NOT mean by reading into the bible a Platonic soul is surving outside a body and goes some place else.
 
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Evergreen48

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I noticed two things about this sight. First, it never mentions Jude 1:12-13, which is impossible to explain away. Second, it mentions Matthew 25:46 as being, "harder to explain away".
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matthew 25:46


"The KJV and many modern versions render kolasin aionioon 'everlasting punishment' , conveying the idea generally interpreted, of torment (basinos). Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the N.T. : Acts 4:21, 2Peter 2:9, and 1John 4:18. It is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. The Greeks write , "The charioteer (kalazei) restrains his fiery steeds.". 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even restrain, is esteemed as punishment; ____ hence has arisen this 3rd metaphorical use of the word." -- - Footnote from the Emphatic Diaglot

Matthew 25:46 is not about what happens to anyone after they die. It is all about how those wicked unrepentant Jews were about to be cut off from, or thrown out of his kingdom. Jesus "came into his own, and his own recieved him not."

Matt. 8:11. "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. (This was the entrance of the Gentiles into his kingdom/church)
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
 
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LutheranMafia

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I'm not following you :confused:

Jude is totally for us and against eternal conscious torment.

These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Dead, twice dead, empty (clouds without rain). They are dead, not alive in torment. They have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
It says that they wander for eternity.

Here are some interesting translations of Jude 1:13
wandering stars forever doomed to the darkest pits of hell.
Contemporary English Version

erring stars, to which the tempest of darknesses is kept without end.
Wycliffe New Testament

wandering stars, for whom the nether gloom has been reserved forever.
NASB
There is is also 2 Peter 2:17
These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
Nether gloom and blackest darkness does not mean dead, it means being cast into the Outer Darkness to live out eternity cut off from the Light.
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matthew 25:46

For someone with no understanding of greek, this would be difficult to understand. But the word translated punishment is κόλασιν and comes from the word κολάζω and means to be cut off. So they go away to be cut off, eternally. Cut off eternally means to be dead, as opposed to the others who go away into eternal life. The verse actually supports conditional immortality very well.
Cut off does not automatically mean dead, that is quite a jump.
 
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LutheranMafia

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"The KJV and many modern versions render kolasin aionioon 'everlasting punishment' , conveying the idea generally interpreted, of torment (basinos). Kolasin in its various forms only occurs in three other places in the N.T. : Acts 4:21, 2 Peter 2:9, and 1 John 4:18.
The whole of 2 Peter 2 is quite interesting. I just quoted from 2 Peter 2:17.
 
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LutheranMafia

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For us to live such short finite lives, why would eternal torment be a fitting punishment?
If you believe in reincarnation as the Jews do, then this is not an issue. We've all been around for a very long time and have had plenty of time to learn our lesson.
 
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Soulgazer

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There is strong historical evidence that some early Christians looked upon this life as death; Life was something to look forward to, but would be denied those who were deemed unworthy by whichever standard that the particular groups clung to.

From my standpoint there is no argument, certainly nothing that deserves three separate threads ;)

This subject has been argued for 1600 years, and shows no sign of going away anytime soon. I think I shall bow out, but if any want my opinion, feel free to message me.
 
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