Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[createdtoworship]

There is no scripture stating disembodied souls joining resurrection bodies.

Lets see what scripture actually states for your above refute:

Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)


29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven

Scripture clearly states he is NOT in heaven, so why are you saying otherwise?

If you read it for what it says... David did not ascend or resurrect. Christ did resurrect according to scripture. David will resurrect with the rest at the first resurrection of the Just. It's not that David didn't go to heaven, it's that David didn't ascend or resurrect bodily. His soul was in heaven. His body was in the grave to this day it says. DAvid says elsewhere "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." psalm 16:10 Meaning that He would not suffer in hell but go to heaven. This contradicts the verse you quoted unless it is interpreted as David's bodily resurrection only in acts 2:29-34

 

[Mikecpking]

If you read it for what it says... David did not ascend or resurrect. Christ did resurrect according to scripture. David will resurrect with the rest at the first resurrection of the Just. It's not that David didn't go to heaven, it's that David didn't ascend or resurrect bodily. His soul was in heaven. His body was in the grave to this day it says. DAvid says elsewhere "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." psalm 16:10 Meaning that He would not suffer in hell but go to heaven. This contradicts the verse you quoted unless it is interpreted as David's bodily resurrection only in acts 2:29-34

Hi,
No, his soul is not in heaven, nor is anyone elses'. That is simply not in the bible..

Psalm 16:10 must be taken in the context of that Hebrew word 'Nephesh' as it also stands for the personal pronoun; eg:

Psalm 16:10

New International Version (NIV)


10 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
nor will you let your faithful[a] one see decay.

'Me' here is translated from 'Nephesh'.

Interestingly enough, where the KJV translates 'Sheol' as 'Hell', the NIV correctly translates Sheol as the realm of the dead, not a place of torture. There is nothing here in Psalms to indicate David went to Heaven, rather, he was not going to be killed while he was on the run from Saul.

 

[Hillsage]

The utube verse search for immortal soul never comments on this verse in Revelation.

REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"


Since these souls had been slain then they obviously had to be mortal because they died...and yet these same 'slain souls' are 'crying out'. So what is the explanation for these souls “crying out with a loud voice” in someone's opinion?

That verse also obviously contradicts Strong’s definition which the Utube speaker said support mortality of the soul. And I tend to agree, so is Strong's wrong in light of the scripture above?

 

[Mikecpking]

The utube verse search for immortal soul never comments on this verse in Revelation.

REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"


Since these souls had been slain then they obviously had to be mortal because they died...and yet these same 'slain souls' are 'crying out'. So what is the explanation for these souls “crying out with a loud voice” in someone's opinion?

That verse also obviously contradicts Strong’s definition which the Utube speaker said support mortality of the soul. And I agree, so is Strong's wrong in light of the scripture above?

Rev 6:9 is figurative, becuase how does one cloth souls with robes of white if they were disembodied? 'Souls' here are translated from the word 'psuche' which also can denote the person themsleves.

Also, the link here is I have already posted the link to nephesh with blood (Lev 17:11, DT 12:23) and you can see the same 'cry' here as stated in Genesis 4:10:
Genesis 4:10

New International Version (NIV)


10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

Its metaphorical. Blood does not shout!

 

[createdtoworship]

The utube verse search for immortal soul never comments on this verse in Revelation.

REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"


Since these souls had been slain then they obviously had to be mortal because they died...and yet these same 'slain souls' are 'crying out'. So what is the explanation for these souls “crying out with a loud voice” in someone's opinion?

That verse also obviously contradicts Strong’s definition which the Utube speaker said support mortality of the soul. And I tend to agree, so is Strong's wrong in light of the scripture above?

thats speaking of souls as "people" acts also says that

41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 2:41

King James Version (KJV)

 

[createdtoworship]

Rev 6:9 is figurative, becuase how does one cloth souls with robes of white if they were disembodied? 'Souls' here are translated from the word 'psuche' which also can denote the person themsleves.

Also, the link here is I have already posted the link to nephesh with blood (Lev 17:11, DT 12:23) and you can see the same 'cry' here as stated in Genesis 4:10:
Genesis 4:10

New International Version (NIV)


10 The LORD said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

Its metaphorical. Blood does not shout!

but you don't even believe you are going to heaven so why should I listen to this argument you pose?

 

[Mikecpking]

Here is a good commentary on Rev 6:9

The Souls Under The Altar

 

[Mikecpking]

but you don't even believe you are going to heaven so why should I listen to this argument you pose?

Come on and please debate. I believe in the resurrection and I believe exactly as scripture teaches and not something extra biblical.

I gave you some good refutes, posted multiple sources and you choose to ignore plain scripture. On what point does scripture fall down?

 

[createdtoworship]

Here is a good commentary on Rev 6:9

The Souls Under The Altar

your link says this about psuche "The word translated "souls" in Revelation 6:9 in the Greek is psuche, G5590 in Strong's dictionary, which also has the meaning of life or breath. Since we have concluded that the blood carries the life and breath in Leviticus 17:11, and life."

so if it's a life that was slain then the souls are not dead.

 

[Mikecpking]

your link says this about psuche "The word translated "souls" in Revelation 6:9 in the Greek is psuche, G5590 in Strong's dictionary, which also has the meaning of life or breath. Since we have concluded that the blood carries the life and breath in Leviticus 17:11, and life."

so if it's a life that was slain then the souls are not dead.

Here are the definitions of 'soul' (nephesh).

Original Word: נָ֫פֶשׁ
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Short Definition: soul

Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
NASB Word Usage
any (1), anyone (2), anyone* (1), appetite (7), being (1), beings (3), body (1), breath (1), corpse (2), creature (6), creatures (3), dead (1), dead person (2), deadly (1), death (1), defenseless* (1), desire (12), desire* (2), discontented* (1), endure* (1), feelings (1), fierce* (2), greedy* (1), heart (5), heart's (2), herself (12), Himself (4), himself (19), human (1), human being (1), hunger (1), life (146), life* (1), lifeblood* (2), lives (34), living creature (1), longing* (1), man (4), man's (1), men* (2), mind (2), Myself (3), myself (2), number (1), ones (1), others (1), ourselves (3), own (1), passion* (1), people (2), people* (1), perfume* (1), person (68), person* (1), persons (19), slave (1), some (1), soul (238), soul's (1), souls (12), strength (1), themselves (6), thirst (1), throat (2), will (1), wish (1), wishes (1), yourself (11), yourselves (13).

From Strong's Hebrew: 5315. נָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) -- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion



So psuche is the NT equivalent of the OT nephesh, here is your answer.

 

[createdtoworship]

Here are the definitions of 'soul' (nephesh).

Original Word: נָ֫פֶשׁ
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-fesh)
Short Definition: soul

Word Origin
from an unused word
Definition
a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
NASB Word Usage
any (1), anyone (2), anyone* (1), appetite (7), being (1), beings (3), body (1), breath (1), corpse (2), creature (6), creatures (3), dead (1), dead person (2), deadly (1), death (1), defenseless* (1), desire (12), desire* (2), discontented* (1), endure* (1), feelings (1), fierce* (2), greedy* (1), heart (5), heart's (2), herself (12), Himself (4), himself (19), human (1), human being (1), hunger (1), life (146), life* (1), lifeblood* (2), lives (34), living creature (1), longing* (1), man (4), man's (1), men* (2), mind (2), Myself (3), myself (2), number (1), ones (1), others (1), ourselves (3), own (1), passion* (1), people (2), people* (1), perfume* (1), person (68), person* (1), persons (19), slave (1), some (1), soul (238), soul's (1), souls (12), strength (1), themselves (6), thirst (1), throat (2), will (1), wish (1), wishes (1), yourself (11), yourselves (13).

From Strong's Hebrew: 5315. ×[bless and do not curse]ָ֫פֶשׁ (nephesh) -- a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion



So psuche is the NT equivalent of the OT nephesh, here is your answer.

your correct so far, but what do you do about this verse

Jesus said, "The man who loves his life [psuche] will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life" (John 12:25).

 

[Timothew]

the first verse on your link Ezekiel 18:4 was a response to a jewish proverb and was meant to be taken literally in the nation of Isreal as capital punishment.


The death of the soul in Hades is something this verse does not suggest.

The Ezekiel passage (the soul that sins shall die) shows that souls can die. Which we know is true, understanding what a soul is, the life of the person. The soul is not some immaterial part of the person which is inherently immortal.

First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it


Rom 2:7 "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"


1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

Paul is not saying all men put on immortality at the resurrection. He is writing to Christians. If Paul were saying all men put on immortality, he would be contradicting himself because he said that the wages of sin is death. Obviously Paul is saying what will happen for Christians at the resurrection, those who have received the gift of eternal life. Only those who have received the gift of eternal life will receive eternal life.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The utube verse search for immortal soul never comments on this verse in Revelation.

REV 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"


Since these souls had been slain then they obviously had to be mortal because they died...and yet these same 'slain souls' are 'crying out'. So what is the explanation for these souls “crying out with a loud voice” in someone's opinion?

Clearly souls survive death, unlike what Mikecpking is arguing.

Excellent post!

I went to a traditional latin mass this sunday and the reading from the scriptures really hit me hard, Matthew 5:21-22

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
​

I've learned a lot from our interchanges last week, and now my lastest fascination with studying the Bible in Greek is with the uses of the word eons in the New Testament, thanks to you.

 

[Mikecpking]

Clearly souls survive death, unlike what Mikecpking is arguing.

Excellent post!

I went to a traditional latin mass this sunday and the reading from the scriptures really hit me hard, Matthew 5:21-22

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
​

I've learned a lot from our interchanges last week, and now my lastest fascination with studying the Bible in Greek is with the uses of the word eons in the New Testament, thanks to you.

Since you did not answer my last reply, I found this. Clearly, the biblical soul is not the one you claim it is. And it certainly is not an immortal essence of a person.

Identifying the Original Words in Each Text; End Notes After Each Verse
Special Note: [The words in bold are those translated from the Greek and Hebrew words in question. Within the parentheses following these bolded words are the particular Greek or Hebrew words used in the text. If the Septuagint uses the corresponding Greek word for the Hebrew word in question, this Greek word is also included within the parentheses.
After each passage is a sentence or so in brackets which emphasizes the inconsistency between that verse and the popular concept of soul and spirit. Sometimes the sentence may appear a bit humorous.

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']The Soul - Old Testament (94 Verses)[/font]
"And God created great whales, and every living creature (nephesh, psuche) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good" (Gen. 1:21). [According to the first occurrences of the word for "soul" in the entire Bible, animals are "souls." The same Hebrew phrase for "living soul" is also found in vs. 20.]
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh, psuche) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so" (Gen. 1:24). [According to this second occurrence of the word for "soul" in the Bible, animals are "souls."]
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh, psuche)" (Gen. 2:7). [He became a "soul" rather than received a "soul."]
"Whatsoever Adam called every living creature (nephesh, psuche), that was the name thereof" (Gen. 2:19). [Animals are "souls."]"But flesh with the life (nephesh, psuche) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. And surely your blood of your lives (nephesh, psuche) will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life (nephesh, psuche) of man" (Gen. 9:4, 5). [Either the "soul" is in the blood, or the blood is the "soul."]
"And with every living creature (nephesh, psuche) that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth" (Gen. 9:10). [Animals are "souls."]
"And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature (nephesh, psuche) that is with you, for perpetual generations" (Gen. 9:12). [Animals are "souls."]
"And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature (nephesh, psuche) of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature (nephesh, psuche) of all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen. 9:15, 16). [Animals are "souls."]
"Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul (nephesh, psuche) shall live because of thee" (Gen. 12:13). ["Souls" can die.]
"And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons (nephesh), and take the goods to thyself" (Gen. 14:21). ["Soul" here refers to the entire person.]

"And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life (nephesh, psuche)" (Ex. 4:19). [Someone can take someone else's "soul."][
"And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man (nephesh, psuche) must eat, that only may be done of you" (Ex. 12:16). ["Souls" can eat.]
"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life (both are nephesh, psuche)" (Ex. 21:23). [You can give a "soul."]
"And if any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings be eaten at all on the third day, it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him that offereth it: it shall be an abomination, and the soul (nephesh, psuche) that eateth of it shall bear his iniquity" (Lev. 7:18). ["Souls" can eat.]
"But the soul (nephesh, psuche) that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from his people. Moreover the soul (nephesh, psuche) that shall touch any unclean thing, as the uncleanness of man, or any unclean beast, or any abominable unclean thing, and eat of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which pertain unto the LORD, even that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from his people" (Lev. 7:20, 21). ["Souls" can eat, touch, and be cut off.]
"Whatsoever soul (nephesh, psuche) it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul (nephesh, psuche) shall be cut off from his people" (Lev. 7:27). ["Souls" can eat and be cut off.]

From:

The Soul and Spirit: Greek and Hebrew Word Studies

 

[LutheranMafia]

But there is Matthew 10:28, which specifies explicitly that the soul can exist without the body and is only destroyed with the body in the case of people who sin very gravely:

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28
​

So very clearly the soul can survive the death of the body.

I noticed that even though you refer to the word psyche repeatedly, you don't have a sinle NT verse in there. The word psyche in Greek has a more narrow meaning than the word nephesh in Hebrew. The word nephesh has a whole range of meanings and is harder to pin down, but the word psyche in Greek is more clear cut. It is easier to address the point in Greek.

However, even in Hebrew it is clear that the soul, while at times referring to the whole being, can also refer to part of the essence that survives death, because the soul goes to Sheol. (Note that the spirit/ruach is not associated with Sheol and is a separate part of the essence of living beings that survives death.)

 

[Timothew]

I noticed that even though you refer to the word psyche repeatedly, you don't have a sinle NT verse in there. The word psyche in Greek has a more narrow meaning than the word nephesh in Hebrew. The word nephesh has a whole range of meanings and is harder to pin down, but the word psyche in Greek is more clear cut. It is easier to address the point in Greek.

Not quite, see Matthew 6:25
μὴ μεριμνᾶτε τῇ ψυχῇ ὑμῶν τί φάγητε ἢ τί πίητε

Don't worry your soul (pysche), what to eat or what to drink...

Soul eat and drink? How does that even work without a body? Clearly the definition of soul as a disembodied part of a person that survives death doesn't work. I know that you are not saying it does, but the common greco-roman nominal christian view is that the soul lives after the body dies.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

K, thought I'd jump back in here.

It seems like we've established that death leads to a place reserving those in it for judgement day. I think a good question to be asking is this; In Revelations it mentions how Satan, along with the beast and the false prophet, are to be tormented in the pool of fire forever. We read that the dead, along with Death and Hades, are to be thrown in it as well. Why do we automatically assume that means that the humans being thrown into the pool of fire are going to be tortured without end? I thought Judgement day was a day of rewards and punishment, each according to what they have done (Romans 2:6). For us to live such short finite lives, why would eternal torment be a fitting punishment? If eon means an undetermined period of time, wouldn't it seem like a person's judgement, should they choose not to accept Christ, would be undetermined but limited instead of infinite?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Not quite, see Matthew 6:25
μὴ μεριμνᾶτε τῇ ψυχῇ ὑμῶν τί φάγητε ἢ τί πίητε

Don't worry your soul (pysche), what to eat or what to drink...

Soul eat and drink? How does that even work without a body? Clearly the definition of soul as a disembodied part of a person that survives death doesn't work. I know that you are not saying it does, but the common greco-roman nominal christian view is that the soul lives after the body dies.

I was saying that Matthew 10:28 proves that the soul can survive the body. Otherwise Jesus would not have spoken of only destroying the body vs. destroying both body and soul.

As to Matthew 6:25, don't you think that taking heroine would harm the soul and the spirit as well as the body?

 

[Timothew]

I was saying that Matthew 10:28 proves that the soul can survive the body. Otherwise Jesus would not have spoken of only destroying the body vs. destroying both body and soul.

As to Matthew 6:25, don't you think that taking heroine would harm the soul and the spirit as well as the body?

Here is Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
This doesn't prove that the "soul" can survive the death of the body. Jesus is saying to them, Don't be afraid of them, even if they kill you, they can't take away your life. (Jesus will resurrect us to eternal life on the last day even if we are killed before then,) He will return our life, our ψυχή to us.

But this verse is also interesting, because some people say that the soul will not be destroyed in hell (Gehenna), but this says that it will be. In other words, people lose their life (and body) if they go to "hell". Going to Gehenna is a way of saying that they have lost out on eternal life. So really, this agrees with all of the scripture that says eternal life is for those who are in Christ and there is no eternal life for those who have placed their faith outside of Jesus Christ.

Regarding Matthew 6:25 Since the "soul" is the ψυχή, which is your life, certainly I agree that taking heroin would harm the ψυχή, the life. Has heroin ever not ruined someone's life who has taken it? It also harms the body, of course. I would say it harms the spirit, the pnuema (breath) as well. I don't have a lot of experience with drug abusers, but I can't imagine a healthy heroin user. They are not usually top finishers in the New York City Marathon.

 

[Timothew]

Matthew 10:29
ὁ εὑρὼν τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἀπολέσει αὐτήν, καὶ ὁ ἀπολέσας τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ ἕνεκεν ἐμοῦ εὑρήσει αὐτήν.

Whoever finds his psyche (soul, life) loses it, and whoever loses his psyche (soul, life) for my sake, finds it.

This doesn't make any sense if pysche is translated soul, the wispy immaterial part of someone that survives his death. But if psyche is really a person's life, then it makes a lot of sense since Jesus will return us to life in the resurrection on the last day. But whoever seeks to save his own life by denying Jesus Christ in this lifetime will lose out on the resurrection to eternal life. So whoever seeks to find his life will lose it in the end, on the last day.