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Let's Talk About Hell (3)

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Sum1sGruj

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Yet able to process that it is there? I don't understand what this is suppose to mean. They are completely unconscious yet conscious that they are there? :confused: And why are you so emphatic that they are unaware of why or how they are in a state of damnation, yet they are aware in other ways?

Of course one cannot explain it rationally. It's the conscience of a fragmented soul. It is stuck with it's undoing and cannot do anything else except be in oblivion and think obliviously upon it's being. It's virtually death, just not the blank death we imagine if we had no soul.

You are hard to parse, are you saying damnation is not to be feared?
Damnation is to be feared. I haven't painted a pretty picture, have I? But Hell, as it is commonly described, is an intentional malevolence that does not fit the Gospel or the context when put altogether.

You speak in the first person a lot when it comes to damnation.
It's the easiest way to explain it. It gives a first hand perspective of how it is like to lessen the confusion on something that is already quite surreal.
 
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Mikecpking

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just because animals have a nephesh doesn't mean that they are saved or condemned like we are. Animals are simply annihilated at the end of their lives I believe. But man who is morally responsible, has an end in the lake of fire (eternal). The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language.

Correct, there is no concept of 'soul' perod in the bible. The definitions I posted are the true meanings of both psuche and nephesh.

In the new testament there is a diffrentiation between soul and body where the old testament doesn't...

Psuche denotes one’s inner life or actual personhood. God, who has created the "soul," can also destroy it. Jesus said: "Be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Here, Jesus differentiated between the "soul" and the body. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul," he said (verse 28). His words indicate that while the body is corrupted at death, the "soul" continues on, though both "soul" and body can end in soul-destroying hell.

You can't base a theology on one verse and ignoring the other 753 times nephesh and psuche are used. The Hebrews believed a dead body was a nephesh until the body decomposed to dust. In Lev 17:11 and DT 12:23, we read the nephesh is (in) the blood, even though the animal was dead, the life was still there. So, if we are to understand what Jesus was stating, a special circumstance or condition was given to martyrs was that one would not end up as the shadowy state of the rephaim in the interim period between death and resurrection, but would have a full existence as put by one theologian. Another way of putting it is one would never have 'eternal life taken away from him'. Either way, 'psuche' or 'nephesh' is never disasociated with the body as no dualism is taught.
IF the body and the soul are not distinct from one another what happens to the soul after death and before the resurrection? It must be in heaven but without the body yet. So that proves they are distinct.

It is specualtion. The bible never speaks of souls in heaven. The soul (life) dies. Please check the verses with tthe Hebrew:

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

Both literally state: "Let my nephesh die..."

secondly,
if soul isn't diffrentiated from body then what is actually saved when we become christian? Is it the body? or the soul? or both? What part is saved and lives forever? If it is the soul then the soul must be equiped for eternity already. If you are one that believes the spirit gets saved and not the soul then that means the holy spirit needs to get saved according to this view. Because it's His spirit living within us scripture states over and over again. We MUST believe the soul is different than the body and that the soul is eternal if we are to answer all of these.

Death is not non exitence. The bible tells us we become 'rephaim' in sheol.

Dan 12:2

Those that sleep in the dust of the earth.

John 5:28-29

New International Version (NIV)


28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned



Jesus was pretty clear that we will be in the grave, not someplace else.

Here is a great explanation of the Hebrew word nepesh and the transition to 'psuche' in the new testament. Its 18 long pages, but you will see in answer the whole idea of the Hebrew afterlife and the influence of Greek philosophy on the bible in history:

Dr. Tory Hoff
 
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Soulgazer

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Timothew

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createdtoworship

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Here's a site from some internet dude that refutes the sites from your internet dude refuting annihilation: Jon's Journey: Does Scripture say Hell is Eternal Punishment?

:wave:



the first verse on your link Ezekiel 18:4 was a response to a jewish proverb and was meant to be taken literally in the nation of Isreal as capital punishment.


The death of the soul in Hades is something this verse does not suggest.

EZEKIEL 18:1–4 The people of Judah had a proverb which blamed their sins on the failure of their ancestors:
“The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge.”
God refutes the proverb, stating that individuals are held responsible for their own sins.
18:5–24 He then gives several examples of His principles of judgment:
1. A man who shuns sin and lives righteously shall surely live (vv. 5–9).
2. A righteous man’s wicked son ... shall surely die (vv. 10–13). The Jews during the captivity as well as in the Lord Jesus’ time prided themselves on having Abraham as their father (Luke 3:8, John 8:39). God points out that it will do no good to have a righteous father, if their own life is wicked. We also have the tendency to rely on the spirituality of others. But the righteous and holy life of our fathers and godly leaders must become a reality in our own lives.
3. An unrighteous man’s righteous son ... shall surely live (vv.14–17), but the unrighteous father ... shall die for his iniquities (v. 18).
4. A wicked man who repents and turns from his sins will live (vv. 21–23).
5. A righteous man who turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity ... shall die (v. 24).
There is no contradiction between verse 20 and Exodus 20:5. It is true, as taught in Exodus, that children are generally involved in the consequences of their parents’ misdeeds. It is also true, as taught here, that each one is personally responsible for his or her actions.
In verse 20, the punishment is temporal, not eternal. It is physical death because of sin now. The principles stated in verses 5–24 are not dealing with eternal life; otherwise we would be forced to conclude that salvation is by works (vv. 5–9) and that the righteous may eventually be lost, two doctrines clearly refuted by our Lord in the NT (e.g., Eph. 2:8, 9; John 10:28).
18:25–32 The people continued to accuse God of injustice, but He shows that there is no injustice because even a wicked man can be saved by turning from his sins, and that is what the Lord wants them to do.
When God forgives, He forgets (v. 22). This does not indicate a poor memory but the perfect satisfaction of His justice through the atoning work of Christ. For the believer the case is closed.
NT New Testament


MacDonald, William ; Farstad, Arthur: Believer's Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments. Nashville : Thomas Nelson, 1997, c1995, S. Eze 18:1


In other words this Bible commentary suggests capital punishment as the context of the verse, not the death of the soul but of body and soul (nephesh= the breath of life). The death of the soul in Hades is something this verse does not suggest.

----------------------------------------------------------
SECONDLY, MY LINKS SUGGEST SOME INTERESTING OBSERVATIONS....

First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it


Rom 2:7 "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"


1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!


here is a photo gallery of HELL

http://www.bible.ca/su-heaven-hell-photogallery.htm
 
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createdtoworship

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Correct, there is no concept of 'soul' perod in the bible. The definitions I posted are the true meanings of both psuche and nephesh.



You can't base a theology on one verse and ignoring the other 753 times nephesh and psuche are used. The Hebrews believed a dead body was a nephesh until the body decomposed to dust. In Lev 17:11 and DT 12:23, we read the nephesh is (in) the blood, even though the animal was dead, the life was still there. So, if we are to understand what Jesus was stating, a special circumstance or condition was given to martyrs was that one would not end up as the shadowy state of the rephaim in the interim period between death and resurrection, but would have a full existence as put by one theologian. Another way of putting it is one would never have 'eternal life taken away from him'. Either way, 'psuche' or 'nephesh' is never disasociated with the body as no dualism is taught.


It is specualtion. The bible never speaks of souls in heaven. The soul (life) dies. Please check the verses with tthe Hebrew:

Numbers 23:10
Judges 16:30

Both literally state: "Let my nephesh die..."



Death is not non exitence. The bible tells us we become 'rephaim' in sheol.

Dan 12:2

Those that sleep in the dust of the earth.

John 5:28-29

New International Version (NIV)


28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned



Jesus was pretty clear that we will be in the grave, not someplace else.

Here is a great explanation of the Hebrew word nepesh and the transition to 'psuche' in the new testament. Its 18 long pages, but you will see in answer the whole idea of the Hebrew afterlife and the influence of Greek philosophy on the bible in history:

Dr. Tory Hoff

SOUL SLEEP IS REFUTED IN VERSES THAT MENTION THE SOUL CONSCIOUS AFTER DEATH....

Indeed, this is like Luke 18:7, which says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?"

ALSO: In Jude 1:7, for example, we find that the souls of the dead sinners of Sodom and Gomorrha are “suffering” eternal vengeance of God. Souls that are asleep do not “suffer” pain and the like. PS: In Gen. 35:18, Rachel’s soul didn’t “fall asleep”; It “departed.”

Thus, we can rest assured that Paul was not describing mere soul sleep in Phil. 1:23, when he said that he was torn between life on earth on being with Christ -and his depiction of the heavenly body in II Cor. 5:1: “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” not merely a soul that is asleep. Matt. 22:32 shows God is the God of the living, not the dead, and according to other scriptures here, the “awake,” not the “asleep.”
secondly,
In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.


Thirdly, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.

Fourthly, WHAT SLEEPS IS MAN'S BODY NOT THE SOUL

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (Matthew 27:52).

The Consciousness of the Soul After Death | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site


Fifthly, The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. There is no equivalent to the Greek concept of the soul in hebrew language, no word so when you quote verses like "the soul that sinneth shall die" you are missing the point. That verse is not talking about Hell at all but capital punishment. see post on this discussion

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576214/#post58030723



Sixthly early dictionaries agree with my assessment of Soul

DEFINITION OF SOUL IN WEBSTERS 1828 DICTIONARY

Soul

n.

1. The spiritual, rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brutes; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental article of the christian system. Such is the nature of the human soul that it must have a God, an object of supreme affection.

newer dictionaries agree with my assessment of soul

WIKIPEDIA

"soul

noun /sōl/ 
souls, plural

1. The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal"

DICTIONARY.COM

"the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. "

CATHOLIC DICTIONARY

"Various theories as to the nature of the soul have claimed to be reconcilable with the tenet of immortality, but it is a sure instinct that leads us to suspect every attack on the substantiality or spirituality of the soul as an assault on the belief in existence after death. "

FREEDICTIONARY.COM

" The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state."
 
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Mikecpking

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SOUL SLEEP IS REFUTED IN VERSES THAT MENTION THE SOUL CONSCIOUS AFTER DEATH....

Who said anything about soul sleep? I mereluy posted some scripture? As proven earlier, there is no such thing as an immaterial essance called a soul.

Indeed, this is like Luke 18:7, which says: "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?"

ALSO: In Jude 1:7, for example, we find that the souls of the dead sinners of Sodom and Gomorrha are “suffering” eternal vengeance of God. Souls that are asleep do not “suffer” pain and the like. PS: In Gen. 35:18, Rachel’s soul didn’t “fall asleep”; It “departed.”

Rachel's nephesh departed, but it did not go anywhere. The nephesh dies at death .

Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10

Thus, we can rest assured that Paul was not describing mere soul sleep in Phil. 1:23, when he said that he was torn between life on earth on being with Christ -and his depiction of the heavenly body in II Cor. 5:1: “For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens,” not merely a soul that is asleep. Matt. 22:32 shows God is the God of the living, not the dead, and according to other scriptures here, the “awake,” not the “asleep.”
secondly,
In the New Testament we see Paul say in 2 Cor. 5:8, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Paul is clearly telling us that when he dies, he will go and be with the Lord.
Where is the word soul or 'psuche' used? Paul's ultimate destination is to be with the Lord, but not in contradiction with 1 Corinthians 15 nor John 5:28-29.

Thirdly, at the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matt. 17:1-8) we see Moses and Elijah who were alive. There was no soul sleep with them.

The transfiguration was a vision. Look it up.

Fourthly, WHAT SLEEPS IS MAN'S BODY NOT THE SOUL

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (Matthew 27:52).

The Consciousness of the Soul After Death | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

No it doen't. Where is man's soul after death?

Fifthly, The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. There is no equivalent to the Greek concept of the soul in hebrew language, no word so when you quote verses like "the soul that sinneth shall die" you are missing the point. That verse is not talking about Hell at all but capital punishment. see post on this discussion

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576214/#post58030723



Sixthly early dictionaries agree with my assessment of Soul

DEFINITION OF SOUL IN WEBSTERS 1828 DICTIONARY

Soul

n.

1. The spiritual, rational and immortal substance in man, which distinguishes him from brutes; that part of man which enables him to think and reason, and which renders him a subject of moral government. The immortality of the soul is a fundamental article of the christian system. Such is the nature of the human soul that it must have a God, an object of supreme affection.

Which was refuted by the theologians Dr Hoff used in his essay.

How do you understand the Hebrew word nephesh which wherever you see the word 'soul' is translated from in this verse?

Lev 17:11
Leviticus 17:11

New International Version (NIV)

11 For the life (nephesh soul) of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a]

This literally states the soul is in the blood and not some immaterial substance.
 
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createdtoworship

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Who said anything about soul sleep? I mereluy posted some scripture? As proven earlier, there is no such thing as an immaterial essance called a soul.



Rachel's nephesh departed, but it did not go anywhere. The nephesh dies at death .

Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10


Where is the word soul or 'psuche' used? Paul's ultimate destination is to be with the Lord, but not in contradiction with 1 Corinthians 15 nor John 5:28-29.



The transfiguration was a vision. Look it up.



No it doen't. Where is man's soul after death?



Which was refuted by the theologians Dr Hoff used in his essay.

How do you understand the Hebrew word nephesh which wherever you see the word 'soul' is translated from in this verse?

Lev 17:11
Leviticus 17:11

New International Version (NIV)

11 For the life (nephesh soul) of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.[a]

This literally states the soul is in the blood and not some immaterial substance.

The Bible agrees with my definition of soul

Acts 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

(three fold nature of man... 1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.)

NEWER DICTIONARIES AGREE WITH MY ASSESSMENT OF SOUL (that mans soul is with God at death, either in eternal doom or eternal bliss)

WIKIPEDIA

"soul

noun /sōl/ 
souls, plural

1. The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal"

DICTIONARY.COM

"the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. "

FREEDICTIONARY.COM

" The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state."
__________________

secondly, nephesh used in leviticus should be rendered "life" not soul. Soul in that verse is not referenced to psyche but is referenced to "body and soul" which is why I don't quote the hebrew in reference to soul. Hebrew was a small language in comparison to greek. Greek definition of soul is accurate while the hebrew definition of soul encompassed both the soul and the body both.

HAYFORD BIBLE HANDBOOK (psuche different from nephesh)

Psuche is not dissolved by death. Body and spirit may be separated, but spirit and soul can only be distinguished.

Hayford, Jack W. ; Thomas Nelson Publishers: Hayford's Bible Handbook. Nashville : Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1995
 
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lets look at Websters:

From Dr Hoff

Nephesh and the Fulfillment It Receives as Psuche
This study investigates the relation between the Old Testament (OT) Hebrew word nephesh, the New Testament (NT) word psuche, and soul, the English word often used to translate nephesh and psuche.
Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines soul as the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actual cause of an individual life. Other definitions are 1) the spiritual principle embodied in human beings 2) a person's total self 3) an active or essential part 4) mans moral and emotional nature or the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment. It adds, "both soul and spirit refer to an immaterial entity distinguishable from the body but the word soul is preferred when the emphasis is on the entity having functions, responsibilities, aspects, or a destiny, or when its connection with the body is in view."</SPAN>
The understanding of soul pervasive in contemporary Western culture and here defined in Webster's is similar to the Platonic view of soul prominent in ancient Greek culture. The basic framework for each definition is the same: immaterial entity in contrast to physical body. The growing emphasis from 20th Century scholarship argues against this body/soul dualism that has dominated the history of Western thought. (see van Peursen, Body, Soul, Spirit Intellectuals have argued for the unity of man as opposed to a Platonic or Cartesian dualism. Man is then viewed as essentially one whole organism and not as two substantial entities.
This trend in affirming the 'wholeness' of man has had its influence upon Christian philosophy and Biblical studies. An increasing number of Christians point to differences between Hebrew views and those of the Greco-Roman world. The tendency is to emphasize that the ancient Hebrews did not approach man dualistically as have the Greeks nor, by implication, the general public of contemporary Western society. Claude Tresmontant in A Study of Hebrew Thought is representative of this development.
Once again we must be careful to avoid interpreting the Hebrew notion of soul in terms of Platonic dualism. Because they recognized no body-soul dichotomy, the Hebrews did not consider the soul the discarnate thing that we imagine it to be. And it is just because we oppose it to 'body' that we think of it in this way. In Hebrew the soul is the man. Indeed we should not say that man has a soul, but that he is a soul; nor consequently that he has a body, but that he is a body. (p. 94)
H.W. Robinson wrote a now famous phrase in Hebrew Psychology. "The Hebrew idea of personality is an animated body, and not an incarnated soul." (p. 362) (For a detailed examination of the distinction between Greek and Hebrew thought and the influence of Greek thought on the history ofWestern thought, see also Lev Shestov's Athens and Jerusalem, D.R.G. Owen's Body and Soul, and 0. Cullman's "Immortality of-the Soul or-Resurrection of the Dead".)
The investigation of the Hebrew view of man has focused on certain anthropological terms. Central to the discussion regarding soul is the Hebrew word nephesh (hereafter referred to as 'N'). Biblical scholars are becoming aware that they face the problem of using the contemporary view of soul to interpret N. Taking today's understanding of soul into a study of N can only distort the meaning of N in a way that is foreign to the actual Hebrew tradition. As Tresmontant put it, "By applying to the Hebrew N the characteristics of the Platonic psuche.... we let the real meaning of N escape us and furthermore, we are left with innumerable pseudo-problems." (p. 94)


"The ideas of the grave and of sheol cannot be separated. Every one who dies goes to sheol, just as he, if everything happens in the normal way, is put into the grave. When the earth swallowed up Dathan and Abiram with all that belonged to them, they went straight down into sheol (Num. 16:29ff.), and Jacob now speaks of going into the grave (Gen * 47:30), now of going into sheol (Gen. 37:35). The dead are at the same time in the grave and in sheol, not in two different places." (Pedersen, p. 461) However, it was noteably those who suffered a shameful death, the slain or the wicked enemies of the godly, that were referred to as actually dwelling in sheol. Thus, Pedersen was perhaps not completely accurate when he wrote that all who died went to sheol. "The wicked shall depart to sheol, all the nations that forget God." (Ps. 9:17; see also Ps. 55:15; Prov. 5:6, 7:27, 9:18) Wicked scoffers could even make a covenant with death and sheol. (see Is. 28:15,18) To die a natural death full of years had its honour and satisfaction. One was "gathered to his people" (Gen. 25:8, 35:29, 49:33; Jud. 2:10) or "sleeps with his fathers" (I Kings 2:10, 11:43) in the family grave. Even in death, the godly participate in the family line. Pedersen was correct in holding the opinion that the grave and sheol cannot be viewed as separate; however, it is important to note a difference between his two examples regarding Jacob. In Gen. 37:35 Jacob refuses comfort after being told Joseph his son was killed, but in Gen. 47:30 Jacob's house is in order and he is therefore now ready to die. The word sheol is used, appropriately, only in the first example.
OT Biblical scholars agree that the ancient Hebrews believed N could die. N was subject to death and therefore was a perishable existence. Ruah-breath left flesh, and N thereby ceased to exist since the vitality of N-blood was no longer sustained. There was no idea of an immaterial entity that left the body at death. It was ruah as breath viewed through the synthetic mind of the Hebrews which concretely, visably left. Human wind departed, not an invisible non-physical entity of more value than a body from which it travelled. Breath and flesh returned to their former conditions and the person took on a new existence, a new status, as one of the rephaim. Pedersen tried to re-define soul when he wrote, "When death occurs, then it is the soul that is deprived of life. Death cannot strike the body or any other part of the soul without striking the entirety of the soul...There can be no doubt that it is the soul which dies, and all theories attempting to deny this fact are false." (p. 179)
Samson pleaded, "Let me [N] die with the Philistines." (Jud. 16:30) Balaam said, "Let me [N] die the death of the righteous." (Num. 23:10) According to John Robinson, "There is no suggestion that...the soul (N) is immortal, while the flesh (basar) is mortal. The soul does not survive man--it simply goes out, draining away with the blood." (p. 14)
Murtonen in Living Soul stated, "N is able to die, but the result is not a dead N but the N of a dead." (p. 29) Murtonen noted that a dead N was a contradiction in terms, and asserted that the corpse must have had some form of life or action since N always denoted these properties. Certainly, once N was dead, 'it' ceased existing. Nonetheless, it must be remembered that this 'it' was not an entity removed from the person. It was a body part caught up in the earthly status of the person. With no blood-vitality, the person ceased to exist as N., "Apparently the dying was conceived as a more or less long process during which man was still called N on account of the 'life' or 'action' which took place in the corpse." (Murtonen, p. 29-30)
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I did a simple google search. Please do your own reserch without bias.


Google
 
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Mikecpking

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NEWER DICTIONARIES AGREE WITH MY ASSESSMENT OF SOUL (that mans soul is with God at death, either in eternal doom or eternal bliss)

WIKIPEDIA

"soul

noun&#8195;/s&#333;l/&#8195;
souls, plural

1. The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal"

DICTIONARY.COM

"the spiritual part of humans regarded in its moral aspect, or as believed to survive death and be subject to happiness or misery in a life to come: arguing the immortality of the soul. "

FREEDICTIONARY.COM

" The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state."
__________________


None of the above is based on the bible. Sow me where the the bible sates the soul is immortal.

Here is a nioce youtube presentation which looks at the so called immortal soul doctrine:

&#x202a;State of the Dead - First response to OneTrueChurch (2A)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
 
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createdtoworship

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None of the above is based on the bible. Sow me where the the bible sates the soul is immortal.

Here is a nioce youtube presentation which looks at the so called immortal soul doctrine:

&#x202a;State of the Dead - First response to OneTrueChurch (2A)&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

"quote"

Belief in an immortal soul was common among the pagan nations prior to christianity"

I would say so, immortality is a topic of ALL religion. But this does not mention anything about Christianity or about Christianity borrowing anything.

Thats a logical fallacy of guilt by association.
 
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Mikecpking

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"quote"

Belief in an immortal soul was common among the pagan nations prior to christianity"

I would say so, immortality is a topic of ALL religion. But this does not mention anything about Christianity or about Christianity borrowing anything.

Thats a logical fallacy of guilt by association.

Well, its your choice not to believe God's word.
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, its your choice not to believe God's word.

it was not God's word just some you tube video. I will respond to the first major concept in the video....


The greeks invented the eternal soul doctrine....

The greeks came up with the eternal soul doctrine because the greeks were smart. They came up with a lot of philosophy that we still use today. That doesn't mean that they borrowed it or we borrowed it. The greek mentality was concrete. And logical. That is why they believed in the eternal soul. Pentecostal and non denominational Christians are concrete and should be. They too believe that the soul is eternal. This should be straight forward.

If you reject the eternal soul doctrine I have a few questions to ask...

When we die what goes to heaven? If it's the spirit than that means the spirit must be saved and the Holy Spirit does not need salvation as it's God's spirit that abides. So my question to you is what in fact goes to heaven when we die? Just our bodies? with no intellect and emotion?

The soul is distinct and eternal...

IF the soul goes to heaven (for the righteous) then what happens after death and before the resurrection? The soul is without a body. This is a concrete observation. So that means the soul is distinct from the body and eternal. (you must accept soul sleep) that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. So you have neither commented on soul sleep but just to say you reject it.. So what happens after death? look it up... The Bible says that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected bodily
 
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Mikecpking

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it was not God's word just some you tube video. I will respond to the first major concept in the video....


The greeks invented the eternal soul doctrine....

The greeks came up with the eternal soul doctrine because the greeks were smart. They came up with a lot of philosophy that we still use today. That doesn't mean that they borrowed it or we borrowed it. The greek mentality was concrete. And logical. That is why they believed in the eternal soul. Pentecostal and non denominational Christians are concrete and should be. They too believe that the soul is eternal. This should be straight forward.

As Dfr Hoff and others stated, if you read into scripture that definition of soul into the bible, you end up with numerous pseudo problems.

If you reject the eternal soul doctrine I have a few questions to ask...

When we die what goes to heaven? If it's the spirit than that means the spirit must be saved and the Holy Spirit does not need salvation as it's God's spirit that abides. So my question to you is what in fact goes to heaven when we die? Just our bodies? with no intellect and emotion?

You have to go back to the Hebrew root words of ruach and nephesh.

Jesus actually stated no one is in heaven (John 3:13. and Peter actually stated after the resurrection about David still being in the grave (Acts 2:29-34)

The soul is distinct and eternal...

I think you stopped watching the viseo at 1 minute, did you watch the whole of it?

IF the soul goes to heaven (for the righteous) then what happens after death and before the resurrection? The soul is without a body. This is a concrete observation. So that means the soul is distinct from the body and eternal. (you must accept soul sleep) that the soul sleeps in the grave until the resurrection. So you have neither commented on soul sleep but just to say you reject it.. So what happens after death? The Bible says that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected bodily look it up.[/quote]

Sorry, but the bible does not teach a soul without a body. Even in Luke 16 and Rev 16:9, they were physical, not immaterial (tongue dipped in water, 'souls given white robes to wear).

There is a resurrection, but there is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

What remains between physical death and resurrection is acalled a 'rephaim' (shades, the dead). and this is the state whether believer or non believer until the resurrection.
 
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createdtoworship

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Jesus actually stated no one is in heaven (John 3:13. and Peter actually stated after the resurrection about David still being in the grave (Acts 2:29-34)

if you don't believe you are going to heaven then there is no more discussion, I rest my case.
 
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Mikecpking

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if you don't believe you are going to heaven then there is no more discussion, I rest my case.

Sigh..

So where does the resurrection fit in? Do you believe in the resurrection? Look at the last 2 chapters of Revelation. God comes out of heaven to live with us!!

I would also like you to answer what the scriptures I posted states.
 
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createdtoworship

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Sigh..

So where does the resurrection fit in? Do you believe in the resurrection? Look at the last 2 chapters of Revelation. God comes out of heaven to live with us!!

I would also like you to answer what the scriptures I posted states.

the resurrection joins bodies to their disembodied souls. Thats it's only purpose. (angels are disembodied spirits as well) God comes to live in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years only. That is to fulfill the messianic prophecy that the throne of david would reign once again by the messiah alone. John 3:13 is talking about ascending to heaven not Going to heaven. ESV used the word ascended here in it's reverse interlinear greek new testament. Acts 2:29-34 is also speaking of David ascending. He was in heaven he just was not resurrected yet.
 
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Sum1sGruj

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Just pea shooting here, but the term 'soul' should be examined by it's untranslated, old Hebrew definition., not by contemporary dictionaries.

Nephesh is the Hebrew word, and is not limited entirely to 'soul', but also 'life' and even blood. So the word is somewhat flexible.
 
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Mikecpking

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the resurrection joins bodies to their disembodied souls. Thats it's only purpose. (angels are disembodied spirits as well) God comes to live in the New Jerusalem for 1000 years only. That is to fulfill the messianic prophecy that the throne of david would reign once again by the messiah alone. John 3:13 is talking about ascending to heaven not Going to heaven. ESV used the word ascended here in it's reverse interlinear greek new testament. Acts 2:29-34 is also speaking of David ascending. He was in heaven he just was not resurrected yet.

There is no scripture stating disembodied souls joining resurrection bodies.

Lets see what scripture actually states for your above refute:

Acts 2:29-34

New International Version (NIV)


29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven

Scripture clearly states he is NOT in heaven, so why are you saying otherwise?
 
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