Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[LutheranMafia]

I typed in "child of the" you typed "child of". When I did "child of" then "child of Eden" was "the top ranking", then "child of mine", "child of rage", "child of god". Now, you can believe that Eden created Adam, but I don't think you do and that's why you left it out of your "top list", but I'm still gonna say God was the father of Adam. And if you believe "rage" 'created a child', I'm still gonna say rage created an action/sin in a child because rage was the father of that child's reaction and not the father of that human being.

There are both usages, so that doesn't prove the point either way. However, I think that 1 Thessalonians 5:5 makes it clear that there are dark spirits as well as light spirits.

To be a child of Satan is to manifest Satanic actions under the influence of Satanic demons which are disembodied spirits which long to manifest in this physical world through human bodies. This is a slap in the face to the God who created them all putting His light in every man.

Many of the demonic spirits that I have defeated were once human. For example, my father's evil guru Raj Neesh, the Hindu guru in Oregon with 99 Rolls Royces (my father certainly didn't know that he was evil, I must add).

1TH 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
I believe that in the verse above is talking about the "father" of actions, and you believe it is talking about 'the father of the person'. Keep your definition in mind and then compare it with your quote below.

So is Satan your Father LM...or was he 'the Father of your drunken action' and God is still the Father of your spirit and the light that lighteth every man including you?

I knew I was going to regret saying that! But I don't care, very drunk for me is 72 ounces of beer. That doesn't count as drunk for most people, as my perfect spelling indicated, but still I wasn't thinking clearly. As to your assertion here, I don't consider myself a drunken spirit. What First Thessalonians means by drunken spirit is a spirit that perpetually lives for heavy intoxication (much more intoxicated than you can get off of beer).

It repents. Have you repented of your 'overindulgence'? Then your light is brighter.

I didn't really drink that much, and the Bible says it is ok to drink in moderation.

I see stars every night in the blackest darkness of outer space, and you know why? Because stars give off light in themselves just like the spirit/candle of every man is of God.

But Jude 1:13 says that they will wonder int darkest blackness for eternity.

Be a Berean LM. Look at the parallel passage in your bible concerning this very same text and read it.

LUK 12:46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,

Now look up the definition of the word poorly translated as "cut him in pieces". The definition is below.

1371 dichotomeo: to bisect, i.e. (by extens.) to flog severely

To be "cut to pieces" means to "receive many lashes"...or to be flogged severely until your skin is torn. That's comparing scripture to scripture in your own bible. This definition can't be compared to yours, of some 'dismembering of a spirit as shards and being cast into the darkness of outer space'...IMO.

Focusing on the word dichotmeo, the BlueLetterBible.org's first defintion is to cut into two pieces, just as the word dichotomy means, "a division into two".

As to the subject as a whole, note my reply to Lord H, Revelation 20:10 speaks of torment "day and night for ever and ever" for entities that are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

Hell has less to do with what a human being has done on this earth and MORE to do with their sin nature. The idea as you call it of Hell is not an idea at all but was brought about and is talked about much in the Bible (Old and New Testament).

The sin nature that resides in us from birth because of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so long ago is what condemns us. God cannot stand sin (any) in His sight. He is a Holy God.

The good news is that God became man and paid the penalty of sin in our place. God doesn't send people to Hell. People choose to go there by not accepting the free gift of salvation that is offered through Jesus Christ.

So saying the idea of Hell is more pagan than Biblical is to err. Again, the Bible has much to say about Hell. You really need to check it out.

The Bible has much to say about Hell, yes, and people misinterpret it. It became a central idea that Hell is a place of fiery torment when the Romans used it to control the population. The Jews do not believe in this Hell, some Christians have just used it to invoke fear on people. There is nothing in the Bible that unequivocally indicates such a Hell unless you simply just want Hell to be that way. The usual idea of Hell is vain and goes against the Gospel.
Hell is a place of metaphorical purge or atonement of the soul, like racing across a liminal bridge before it collapses and you are sent into oblivion. I have done my study and theology on the matter, and that is what it equated to, not the Hell others speak of.
God is a god of purity and balance, not malevolence and torment.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Bible has much to say about Hell, yes, and people misinterpret it. It became a central idea that Hell is a place of fiery torment when the Romans used it to control the population. The Jews do not believe in this Hell, some Christians have just used it to invoke fear on people. There is nothing in the Bible that unequivocally indicates such a Hell unless you simply just want Hell to be that way. The usual idea of Hell is vain and goes against the Gospel.
Hell is a place of metaphorical purge or atonement of the soul, like racing across a liminal bridge before it collapses and you are sent into oblivion. I have done my study and theology on the matter, and that is what it equated to, not the Hell others speak of.
God is a god of purity and balance, not malevolence and torment.

This is a question for Hilsage too. So what do you think it means to be in the Book of Life vs. not being named in the Book of Life?


Here are all the verses that speak of the Book of Life:

1. Psalm 69:28
   May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
   
2. Philippians 4:3
   Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
   
3. Revelation 3:5
   The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
   
4. Revelation 13:8
   All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
   
5. Revelation 17:8
   The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
   
6. Revelation 20:12
   And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
   
7. Revelation 20:15
   Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
   
8. Revelation 21:27
   Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

 

[Sum1sGruj]

It's very simple. God is omnipotent, and knows who and who will not make it.
It does not mean we do not have the will to choose, it just means that He already knows.
When you die, you die by your sins, and post-death, you contend with those sins. You either come to the light or you fall into oblivion (death). The gnashing of teeth, the darkness, the wandering, etc. all point to this idea. You are either enslaved by your sins, or you..., come to the light.
Not only does it concur with what is spoken of Hell, it also consolidates God's nature of balance and purity.

 

[Hillsage]

I didn't really drink that much, and the Bible says it is ok to drink in moderation.

If it affected your thinking, as you admit, then I must question it personally. I don't really know what God would consider drunk. But for you to say "drunk as hell" sure didn't sound good. And I do drink in moderation so I'm not coming from a teetotaler perspective.

Focusing on the word dichotmeo, the BlueLetterBible.org's first defintion is to cut into two pieces, just as the word dichotomy means, "a division into two".

But the context of those passages is consistent with flogging. People weren't literally cut up into a bunch of pieces and scattered for what the servant did, but flogging was appropriate. And even that would be considered 'extreme torture' by us today.

But Jude 1:13 says that they will wonder int darkest blackness for eternity.

As to the subject as a whole, note my reply to Lord H, Revelation 20:10 speaks of torment "day and night for ever and ever" for entities that are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

I'm still going to say they are just bad translations that were written to support bad doctrine. Several translations don't use eternity in those very same verses, so we are at a stalemate concerning this point.

Jude 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.

REV 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where {are} the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night - to the ages of the ages.

 

[createdtoworship]

Then, how do you get that meaning from this verse?

DT 12:23 The soul (nephesh) of the flesh is the blood. ?

Biblically, the soul has nothing to do with intellect or mind. Rather, it is the life bound up in the body or the individual (as whole) themselves.

There is no body soul dualism in scripture.

Thry looking through the myriad of websites about this definition:

Google

if there is no body/soul dualism what happens to the soul after death and before the resurrection?

You are stuck here because if you say the soul goes to heaven then how can it without the body?

a dualism.


here is more on the topic...by clarence larkin (out of copywrite)

The Threefold Nature Of Man

The outer circle stands for the "body" of man, the middle for the "soul" and the inner for the spirit, or what Paul calls the "Carnal" (1Cor. 3:1-3) ; the "Natural" (1Cor. 2:14) ; and the "Spiritual" (1Cor. 3:1) ; parts of man.

In the outer circle the "body" is shown as touching the Material world through the five senses of "sight, " "smell, " "hearing, " "taste" and "touch." The soul uses the "Five Senses" of the body as its agents in the exploration of the phenomena of matter and historical research, and for its self expression and communion with the outside world. The "Gates" to the soul are "imagination, " "conscience, " "memory, " "reason" and the "affections." The "Gate of Imagination" of the soul corresponds to the "Gate of Sight" of the body, being the "eye" by which the soul sees. The "Gate of Conscience" corresponds to the "Gate of Smell, " by which the soul detects the presence of good and evil.

The "Gate of Memory" corresponds to the "Gate of Hearing, " by which the soul recalls what it heard. The "Gate of Reason" corresponds to the "Gate of Taste, " permitting the soul to compare facts as the taste compares foods. The "Gate of the Affections" corresponds to the "Gate of Touch, " being the hand by which the soul feels the person of the one it loves.

The Spirit receives impressions of outward and material things through the soul and body. The "Sense Faculties" of the spirit are the "Spiritual faculties" of "Faith...... Hope, " "Reverence, " "Prayer, " and "Worship." In his unfallen state the "spirit" of man was illuminated from Heaven, but when the human race fell in Adam, sin closed the window of the spirit, and pulled down the curtain, and the "chamber of the spirit" became a Death Chamber, and remains so in every unregenerate heart, until the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the Holy Spirit floods that chamber with the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the NEW LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS. We see then why the "natural" man cannot understand spiritual things. He cannot understand them until his spiritual nature has been renewed.

But the spirit of the Natural man is not only darkened, his "Will" stands as a "guard" at the door, and prevents the entrance of the Holy Spirit, and it is not until the "Will" surrenders through the power of the "Sword of the Spirit, " the ... Word of God, " that the Holy Spirit can enter and take up his abode in the "spirit" of man.

The battlefield of "Good" and "Evil" is in the "soul" of man. It is not enough that the Holy Spirit should take up His residence in the "spirit" of a man, He must have access to the "soul" and "body, " as shown on the Diagram. Not until then can a man become "Sanctified" for "Holiness" is conditioned on a "Spirit Filled" spirit, soul and body. A healthy soul and spirit need a healthy body, and if the body is given over to carnality and the lusts of the flesh, even to fasting that weakens it, the soul and spirit suffer, and the whole man becomes spiritually sick.

Let us now trace the life of the soul and spirit after they have left the body. In the story of the "Rich Man and Lazarus, " we have a description of the "Underworld." We find that it is made up of two compartments, "Paradise" and "Hell, " with an "Impassable Gulf" between. At the bottom of the Gulf is the "Bottomless Pit" or "Abyss." This is a place of temporary confinement for "Evil Spirits" (Demons). It has a King-"Apollyon, " but is kept locked by God, who commissions an angel to open it when He so desires. Rev. 9:1-3; Rev. 17:8; Rev. 20:1-3. Study in this connection the charts on "The Spirit World" and "The Resurrections and the judgments."

Before the resurrection of Christ the soul and spirit of the righteous dead went to the "Paradise" compartment of the Underworld. There Christ met the "Penitent Thief" after His death on the Cross. On the day of His Resurrection Christ's soul and spirit returned from the Underworld, but He did not return alone, He brought back with Him all the occupants of the Paradise section and locked it up, and now He now has the "Keys of Death and Hades." Rev. 1:18 R. V. Here "Death" stands for the "grave" and "Hades" for the Underworld. Some of those who came back from the Underworld with Christ got their "bodies, " and rose and ascended with Him as the "First-Fruits" of the resurrection "from among the dead." Matt. 27:52, Matt. 27:53. The rest were taken up to the "Third Heaven, " where Paul was caught up, 2Cor. 12:1-3. Paul called it Paradise. There all the Righteous dead that have died since Christ's resurrection go, that they may be "With the LORD." Phil. 1:23. 2Cor. 5:8.

There the souls of the Righteous dead shall remain until the time comes for the resurrection of their bodies, then when Christ comes back to meet His Church in the Air, He will bring back the souls of the Righteous dead from the Paradise of the "Third Heaven, " for we are told that He will bring them who "Sleep in Jesus" WITH Him (1Thes. 4:14), and they shall continue on to the earth and get their "bodies" from the grave, and then ascend again with the "Translated Saints" to meet Christ IN THE AIR.

So far as we know the souls of the "Wicked Dead" are still in the "Hell Compartment" of the Underworld, and will remain there until the Second Resurrection, when they will return to the earth and get their bodies, and then go to the "Great White Throne" judgment. After judgment they will be sentenced to the "Second Death, " which means that they shall die again, in the sense of losing their bodies again, and as "disembodied spirits" be cast into the "Lake of Fire, " (Gehenna, the "Final Hell"), to suffer in flames forever. As soul and spirit are impervious to flames, this explains how the wicked, after being disembodied again by the "Second Death, " can exist forever in literal fire.

When the earth is "Renovated by Fire, " Satan and all the "Evil Powers" of the Heavenlies will be imprisoned, and the heavens will be "cleansed" of all evil and rebellious spirits. In the New Heavens and Earth man will be restored to the condition Adam was in before the Fall, and the "veil" between the Natural and Spirit Worlds will be removed.

essay and diagram by clarence larkin

 

[LutheranMafia]

It's very simple. God is omnipotent, and knows who and who will not make it.

But we are not God. God knows for certain who is and who is not saved, but from our perspective it is hard to tell. From the human perspective effort is required, you can't simply rest on your laurels and do nothing. And from the human perspective we cannot tell who has killed because of warfare or police actions and is actually saved vs. who is a murderer who is damned forever.

It does not mean we do not have the will to choose, it just means that He already knows.
When you die, you die by your sins, and post-death, you contend with those sins. You either come to the light or you fall into oblivion (death). The gnashing of teeth, the darkness, the wandering, etc. all point to this idea.

It points to an idea of consciousness for the damned, even in their damnation.

You are either enslaved by your sins, or you..., come to the light.
Not only does it concur with what is spoken of Hell, it also consolidates God's nature of balance and purity.

What does purity have to do with the perpetuation of consciousness of the damned?

 

[LutheranMafia]

If it affected your thinking, as you admit, then I must question it personally. I don't really know what God would consider drunk. But for you to say "drunk as hell" sure didn't sound good. And I do drink in moderation so I'm not coming from a teetotaler perspective.

Sometimes you have to loosen up. While my argument about the consciousness of potatos was suspect, I think that I said things about the nature of feral consciousness which I had not said before because it isn't in the Bible, and I think that Timothew got something out of it. For me "drunk as hell" means that I have loosened up enough to talk about hell in a real way. It is hard to do that from a strictly Biblical context because the Bible says so little about Hell.

But the context of those passages is consistent with flogging. People weren't literally cut up into a bunch of pieces and scattered for what the servant did, but flogging was appropriate. And even that would be considered 'extreme torture' by us today.

Being "drawn and quartered" literally meant being cut into four pieces. Being cut in two is as good as being cut into quarters, you are just as dead either way, at least in a physical sense. (But as for the spirit, the brittle spirit of evil souls is shattered into splintered smithereens when they are defeated.)

I'm still going to say they are just bad translations that were written to support bad doctrine. Several translations don't use eternity in those very same verses, so we are at a stalemate concerning this point.

Jude 1:13 wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept.

REV 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where {are} the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night - to the ages of the ages.

What versions are you quoting from? If what I quoted were just bad translations of the word aion, then salvation is not eternal either. For example:

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for only an age (not forever). Amen.
Matthew 6:13

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world (which is really only an age and then will end). Amen.
Matthew 28:20

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever (which is really only an age); and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:33
​

In each of these cass, to interpret the Greek word aion as meaning only "an age" is to render the verse completely incompatible with any genuinely Christian belief. The word aion must be translated as "forever" in many circumstances in order to have any semblance of genuine belief in Christ.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Then, how do you get that meaning from this verse?

DT 12:23 The soul (nephesh) of the flesh is the blood. ?

So how do you interpret Leviticus 26:11-12?

and my soul (nephesh) shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
​

Are you saying that God has physical blood, or that the totality of God is something physical?

Your definition of soul needs some refining, my friend.

 

[Mikecpking]

So how do you interpret Leviticus 26:11-12?

and my soul (nephesh) shall not abhor you. And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
​

Are you saying that God has physical blood, or that the totality of God is something physical?

Your definition of soul needs some refining, my friend.

Since 'nephesh' also is the personal pronoun (me) (see numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30), you could say let me not abhor you..

Nephesh is not the same as the pagan Greek soul that Plato teaches.

You have seen this before>>

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].

 

[Soulgazer]

(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."~Thomas

 

[Sum1sGruj]

What does purity have to do with the perpetuation of consciousness of the damned?

That's simple as well. The damned are the dead. Damned does not have to necessarily mean going to Hell, as in thrown into a pit of torment. It just means that you are condemned, such as an old house that is abandoned and marked as such, or a prisoner on death row.
The consciousness of the damned is like a dreamless sleep, yet able to process that it is there. But not how or why they are there. It's nothing less to fear, as it is death. We just think of death in a different way, like oblivion. Rather, death is in oblivion, and we are fragmented and can only interpret oblivion. Our full conscience has been ripped in tiny fragments, and that is why we can interpret nothing more. Only our incomplete issues of life and sins burn within us to be forever unable to be reconciled by ourselves.

That really just completes the liminal bridge idea. See, after we die on Earth, we try to get to the light before we drift into oblivion. Jesus saves, and so he is our guide. For everyone else who is still savable, that is what they endure.

The wandering, the gnashing of teeth (anger), the weeping (sadness), the darkness/light, the fire (sins)., it all equates to this concept in my opinion.

 

[Hillsage]

Being "drawn and quartered" literally meant being cut into four pieces. Being cut in two is as good as being cut into quarters, you are just as dead either way, at least in a physical sense. (But as for the spirit, the brittle spirit of evil souls is shattered into splintered smithereens when they are defeated.)

We know that 'flogging' was a punishment of the first century, but being 'drawn and quartered' wasn't until 1200AD according to Wickipedia.

In each of these cass, to interpret the Greek word aion as meaning only "an age" is to render the verse completely incompatible with any genuinely Christian belief. The word aion must be translated as "forever" in many circumstances in order to have any semblance of genuine belief in Christ.

The translation I quoted was Young's literal Translation, but it matters not. The Concordant Literal Translation and Weymouth's are two others that would agree. I've discussed this before and I've presented my case as best I could. I admit that I have a little trouble with some of my verses, but less than I see in the opposing view. It just is an area of continuous disagreement. One example is in the verse you quoted below.

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever (which is really only an age); and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luke 1:33

Young's translates it as; [YLT] LUK 1:33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

He translated it ages because it isn't aion, it is aionios and is plural. That is confirmed in the following URL.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk1.pdf
aiwnas
aiOnas
G165
n_ Acc Pl m
eons

How much sense would your translation make if it said;

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for evers??? Or "for the eternities".

I know you get my point. But I do admit having a difficulty with the other verse you quoted saying "Jesus is with us until the end of the age". I know you think it means 'then he isn't with us in the next age.' But I'm thinking that maybe he just meant he would be with them the entire time of the great commission which is what he was mandating and giving them authority for. Do you follow my logic?

But I guess I've chosen this side because I think it is right.
Like I've said before; "If the price of sin is eternal hell then Jesus never paid the price." And if "death is the last enemy to be destroyed", and orthodoxy defines death as eternal hell, then death is never destroyed."

 

[LutheranMafia]

We know that 'flogging' was a punishment of the first century, but being 'drawn and quartered' wasn't until 1200AD according to Wickipedia.

This was a common Hebrew practice in Biblical times. Here is the definition of dichotomeo in the Greek lexicion: Dichotomeo - Greek Lexicon

1. to cut into two parts
   1. of the cruel method of punishment used by the Hebrews and others of cutting one in two
2. cut up by scourging, scourge severely

I know you get my point. But I do admit having a difficulty with the other verse you quoted saying "Jesus is with us until the end of the age". I know you think it means 'then he isn't with us in the next age.' But I'm thinking that maybe he just meant he would be with them the entire time of the great commission which is what he was mandating and giving them authority for. Do you follow my logic?

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that there is eternal damnation. What you said above just means that the process of damning eventually ends, which I do believe. There will come a time when all of the damned are gone forever. However, this plays into the logic of eternal damnation which fundamentally differs from your whole belief system. If the Great Commission ends then that means that the damned are cut off forever. The whole process of damning stops because the damned can never come back.

But I guess I've chosen this side because I think it is right.
Like I've said before; "If the price of sin is eternal hell then Jesus never paid the price."

It is not a price to pay, it is simply a returning of dark spirits to their proper place.

And if "death is the last enemy to be destroyed", and orthodoxy defines death as eternal hell, then death is never destroyed."

If the Great Commission is over at the end of this age then that means there is no more on going deaths. Everyone left is immortal or at least does not die the second death. That doesn't mean that there is no eternal torment for those that have already died the second death, it just means that no one else will die the second death, and those that have will be unable to come back. Thus the whole process of second deaths will come to an eternal end.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The translation I quoted was Young's literal Translation, but it matters not. The Concordant Literal Translation and Weymouth's are two others that would agree. I've discussed this before and I've presented my case as best I could. I admit that I have a little trouble with some of my verses, but less than I see in the opposing view. It just is an area of continuous disagreement. One example is in the verse you quoted below.

Young's translates it as; [YLT] LUK 1:33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

He translated it ages because it isn't aion, it is aionios and is plural. That is confirmed in the following URL.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/luk1.pdf
aiwnas
aiOnas
G165
n_ Acc Pl m
eons

How much sense would your translation make if it said;

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for evers??? Or "for the eternities".

That is an interesting point, but it doesn't help you: Rev 20:10 uses "αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων", aion twice in a row, once plural and once singular (eons of eon).

I'm starting to notice a pattern here, that when the word aion is used in the singular it is translated as "world", but when it is used in the plural it is translated as "forever".

According to the BlueLetterBible the definition of aiōnios is:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

There is also Mark 3:29, which says that there is "eternal damnation", aiōnios krisis. I notice that the YLT translation of Mark 3:29 is basically gibberish: "but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment". What the heck is "age-during judgment"?

 

[LutheranMafia]

The consciousness of the damned is like a dreamless sleep, yet able to process that it is there. But not how or why they are there.

Yet able to process that it is there? I don't understand what this is suppose to mean. They are completely unconscious yet conscious that they are there? And why are you so emphatic that they are unaware of why or how they are in a state of damnation, yet they are aware in other ways?

It's nothing less to fear, as it is death.

You are hard to parse, are you saying damnation is not to be feared?

We just think of death in a different way, like oblivion. Rather, death is in oblivion, and we are fragmented and can only interpret oblivion. Our full conscience has been ripped in tiny fragments, and that is why we can interpret nothing more.

It sounds like you agree with me that the spirit of the damned is fragmented into splinters.

Only our incomplete issues of life and sins burn within us to be forever unable to be reconciled by ourselves.

You speak in the first person a lot when it comes to damnation.

 

[createdtoworship]

Hell has less to do with what a human being has done on this earth and MORE to do with their sin nature. The idea as you call it of Hell is not an idea at all but was brought about and is talked about much in the Bible (Old and New Testament).

The sin nature that resides in us from birth because of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so long ago is what condemns us. God cannot stand sin (any) in His sight. He is a Holy God.

The good news is that God became man and paid the penalty of sin in our place. God doesn't send people to Hell. People choose to go there by not accepting the free gift of salvation that is offered through Jesus Christ.

So saying the idea of Hell is more pagan than Biblical is to err. Again, the Bible has much to say about Hell. You really need to check it out.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 3:19- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version

 

[createdtoworship]

Since 'nephesh' also is the personal pronoun (me) (see numbers 23:10, Judges 16:30), you could say let me not abhor you..

Nephesh is not the same as the pagan Greek soul that Plato teaches.

You have seen this before>>

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].

just because animals have a nephesh doesn't mean that they are saved or condemned like we are. Animals are simply annihilated at the end of their lives I believe. But man who is morally responsible, has an end in the lake of fire (eternal). The problem with the English term 'soul' is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language.

In the new testament there is a diffrentiation between soul and body where the old testament doesn't...

Psuche denotes one’s inner life or actual personhood. God, who has created the "soul," can also destroy it. Jesus said: "Be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Here, Jesus differentiated between the "soul" and the body. "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul," he said (verse 28). His words indicate that while the body is corrupted at death, the "soul" continues on, though both "soul" and body can end in soul-destroying hell.


IF the body and the soul are not distinct from one another what happens to the soul after death and before the resurrection? It must be in heaven but without the body yet. So that proves they are distinct.
secondly,
if soul isn't diffrentiated from body then what is actually saved when we become christian? Is it the body? or the soul? or both? What part is saved and lives forever? If it is the soul then the soul must be equiped for eternity already. If you are one that believes the spirit gets saved and not the soul then that means the holy spirit needs to get saved according to this view. Because it's His spirit living within us scripture states over and over again. We MUST believe the soul is different than the body and that the soul is eternal if we are to answer all of these.

 

[Soulgazer]

Hell has less to do with what a human being has done on this earth and MORE to do with their sin nature. The idea as you call it of Hell is not an idea at all but was brought about and is talked about much in the Bible (Old and New Testament).

The sin nature that resides in us from birth because of the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden so long ago is what condemns us. God cannot stand sin (any) in His sight. He is a Holy God.

The good news is that God became man and paid the penalty of sin in our place. God doesn't send people to Hell. People choose to go there by not accepting the free gift of salvation that is offered through Jesus Christ.

So saying the idea of Hell is more pagan than Biblical is to err. Again, the Bible has much to say about Hell. You really need to check it out.

Actually, you need to do a little more homework. We have already gone through the old testament and demonstrated that neither eternal punishment or reward was known to temple Judaism. These ideas are a result of the Hellenization of Judaism about 200BC, and first show up in Pseudepigraphical writings about that time; This represented a deep rift between traditional Temple judaism that saw salvation as the continuance of a nation, and the new greek idea of salvation as personal. The idea of a judgement day was only about two hundred years old at the time of Christ. The idea of Jesus paying the "penalty" of Sin, is not in the same category as Traditional Judaism; The books of Exodus were refuted by Jeremiah, and the Law in general was declared null and void by Paul. What you are quoting is churchianity, not early christianity, which had a much broader inclusiveness and diversity of doctrine than the latter churchianity,

 

[createdtoworship]

It's very simple. God is omnipotent, and knows who and who will not make it.
It does not mean we do not have the will to choose, it just means that He already knows.
When you die, you die by your sins, and post-death, you contend with those sins. You either come to the light or you fall into oblivion (death). The gnashing of teeth, the darkness, the wandering, etc. all point to this idea. You are either enslaved by your sins, or you..., come to the light.
Not only does it concur with what is spoken of Hell, it also consolidates God's nature of balance and purity.

here are some sites that expand on the contradiction of annihilation and dualism

Discussion: Eternal torment or annihilation?

Eternal torment proved ... annihilation refuted