Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Timothew]

Matt. 25:46; Mark 3:29; Heb. 6:2; 2 Thess. 1:9; Matt. 18:8; 25:41; .... And I would like a verse reference for your view then firstly before anymore of our conversation. Any questions?

Matt 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

As you can see from the verse, this does not say "Physical death is temporary, spiritual death is everlasting".

Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin

The sin is eternal, this doesn't say anything about "spiritual death" or "physical death". Did you misunderstand my request? You said physical death is temporary, spiritual death is permanent. I asked for the scripture reference that says this.

Heb 6:2
instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

This shows that there is resurrection of the dead and then they face judgement with eternal consequences. It doesn't show that there are 2 kinds of death, one physical and temporary, and one spiritual and permanent.

2 Thess 1:9
They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

This shows that death means being destroyed forever, which is what happens when a person doesn't receive eternal life. This does not make you point.

Matt 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

This does not say that there are 2 kinds of death, one temporary and one permanent. Whatever is put into the eternal fire is completely comsumed by the fire. Matthew 3:12 uses this word picture, and tells what happens to the chaff that is put into the unquenchable fire. The greek word is κατακαύσει and means to be completely destroyed by fire, to burn down.

Matt 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

This does not say physical death is temporary, spiritual death is permanent.

None of the references you put up say what you want them to say. None of them make your point.

And I would like a verse reference for your view then firstly before anymore of our conversation. Any questions?

You don't need to be rude. I'll be happy to share the scripture that supports my view, but this post is getting long and the scripture support for my view is even longer and more extensive so I will have to put it in a separate post.

 

[Timothew]

.... And I would like a verse reference for your view then firstly before anymore of our conversation. Any questions?

I am very happy to give the Scriptural Support for why I don't believe in the theory of eternal torment.

Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28​

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30​

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,​

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3​

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16​

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21​

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23​

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17​

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8​

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,​

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39​

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

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James 1:15b​

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a​

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1​

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9​

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12​

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5​

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

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Jude 10​

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
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Revelation 2:11b​

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8​

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8​

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15​

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)

​

 

[theWaris1]

how many pastors agree with you, I was just wondering.

I care not if pastor agree with me. How many agree with scriptures is the better question. Do you have any idea who many pastor preach false hoods on Hell and on Tithes?
How many pastors are in for the money? If the tithe was no longer an acceptable teaching how many of those preachers would still be preaching the gospel? I would wager few, very few. When major persecution hits the church you will see who really believes and there won't be any money changers left in the church. There are many blind guides making more of the same.

 

[Timothew]

how many pastors agree with you, I was just wondering.

A lot, not that it matters. And more and more are coming around.
John Stott, Greg Boyd, Glen Moyer, Edward Fudge, for example.

All of the SDA Pastors.

 

[createdtoworship]

I care not if pastor agree with me. How many agree with scriptures is the better question. Do you have any idea who many pastor preach false hoods on Hell and on Tithes?
How many pastors are in for the money? If the tithe was no longer an acceptable teaching how many of those preachers would still be preaching the gospel? I would wager few, very few. When major persecution hits the church you will see who really believes and there won't be any money changers left in the church. There are many blind guides making more of the same.

the fact that you can't go to church because you don't agree with them is a problem. God isn't happy with people that don't try.

 

[createdtoworship]

A lot, not that it matters. And more and more are coming around.
John Stott, Greg Boyd, Glen Moyer, Edward Fudge, for example.

All of the SDA Pastors.

So do you go to a SDA church? Or do you avoid church all together like the others? Because it's one thing to find 5 churches globally that teach a particular doctrine it's another to find one in your home town to go to. Most people just avoid church when their doctrine gets amiss. But that is a bad thing, no accountability no sunday school for kids etc.

 

[he-man]

the fact that you can't go to church because you don't agree with them is a problem. God isn't happy with people that don't try.

Tell me how then:
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

 

[createdtoworship]

Tell me how then:
Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

it's all about unity, uniting over the differences. Too many people are prideful about their beliefs and think no one else in the world doubts or thinks differently. But many people don't agree 100% with their pastor but they go anyway to support a local effort for the lost. Organized religion is not always organized but it's religion. One way to support the homeless is to give to the church, do you support the homeless? Pure and undefiled religion is this..."to support the orphan and the widow." Many people just use their differences as a reason not to go to church.

This is not the way it should be.

 

[he-man]

it's all about unity, uniting over the differences. Too many people are prideful about their beliefs and think no one else in the world doubts or thinks differently.

Too many people do not study the word of God enough to know that God dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

But many people don't agree 100% with their pastor but they go anyway to support a local effort for the lost. Organized religion is not always organized but it's religion. One way to support the homeless is to give to the church, do you support the homeless? Pure and undefiled religion is this..."to support the orphan and the widow." Many people just use their differences as a reason not to go to church. This is not the way it should be.

I support all orphans and widows by not using extortion as a requirement of a payment of money or property for LOVE OFFERINGS to the church or tithing or with charging high interest rates or repossessing their homes.

Luk 20:46Beware of the scribes/Preachers, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets/Chamber of Commerce, and the highest seats in the synagogues/Churches, and the chief rooms at feasts/Church Suppers;

47Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers/at invocations: the same shall receive greater judgement.

 

[createdtoworship]

Too many people do not study the word of God enough to know that God dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I support all orphans and widows by not using extortion as a requirement of a payment of money or property for LOVE OFFERINGS to the church or tithing or with charging high interest rates or repossessing their homes.

Luk 20:46Beware of the scribes/Preachers, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets/Chamber of Commerce, and the highest seats in the synagogues/Churches, and the chief rooms at feasts/Church Suppers;

47Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers/at invocations: the same shall receive greater judgement.

so you don't believe in organized religion either?

 

[theWaris1]

the fact that you can't go to church because you don't agree with them is a problem. God isn't happy with people that don't try.

You're are assuming and now you're speaking for God?

 

[createdtoworship]

You're are assuming and now you're speaking for God?

King James Bible- Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Not forsaking the assembly is a physical assembly not a spiritual one. Because of the context of the verse.

 

[he-man]

so you don't believe in organized religion either?

There is no TRUE organized religion. That is the problem and why people all over the world are not listening to what God is saying.

The prickle is the world!

Mr 4:18 And others are those being sown into the prickle, these are those having heard the word,
19 But the cares of this time period, and the nonsense and the causes that make one yearn concerning wealth, hence together, they suffocate the word and it becomes unfruitful.

Do you not know that the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40As therefore the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[createdtoworship]

There is no TRUE organized religion. That is the problem and why people all over the world are not listening to what God is saying.

The prickle is the world!

Mr 4:18 And others are those being sown into the prickle, these are those having heard the word,
19 But the cares of this time period, and the nonsense and the causes that make one yearn concerning wealth, hence together, they suffocate the word and it becomes unfruitful.

Do you not know that the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:40As therefore the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The true church will not suffer or spoil this is just speaking of the false church. Christ's bride, the true church will last through all the falsehood. the word ecclesia did not mean "called out ones" in the first century but rather held reference to a general assembly of believers who, most frequently, met together in homes...

Hebrews 12:23 - King James Bible
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

church means ecclesia and it is used in conjuction with general assembly

Congregations of people are called in the scripture. We are called to unite, and serve together. Thats what congregation means. look up eclesia in the scripture it's always a group of believers together. The Greek term ἐκκλησία that in its appearances in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly".[1] It appears in 2 verses of the canonical Gospel of Matthew, 24 verses of the Acts of the Apostles, 58 verses of the letters of Paul the Apostle (including therefore the earliest instances of its use in relation to a Christian body), 2 of the Letter to the Hebrews, 1 of the Epistle of James, 3 of the Third Epistle of John, and 19 of the Book of Revelation. It's also what organized religion is (an ecclesia.)

 

[createdtoworship]

Nice picture and all, but those are all in the same place, the earth's core.

Hell is merely a part of the lake of fire. And Tartarus is merely a part of the abyss.

Also, I think Jesus was referring to a heavenly place when He said that to the thief. Is there really 1 Paradise or are there 2 Paradises?

In fact, I always assumed that the Paradise in Luke 16 was referring to a heavenly one.

This is what a chasm looks like. It's more likely that the chasm is the distance between heaven and earth.

Wuest, Kenneth S.: Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English Reader. Grand Rapids : Eerdmans, 1997, c1984, S. Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: p.48-49

"Hell. There are three Greek words, each referring to a different place, all of which are translated by the one word hell, a fact that causes considerable confusion in interpreting the passages where they occur. These words are geenna, haides (γεεννα, αἱδε&#962, and tartaroō (ταρταρο&#969. The first comes into English in the word Gehenna (Γεηενν&#945, the second, in the word Hades (ἁδε&#962, and the third, in the word Tartarus (Ταρταρυ&#962.
Geenna (Γεενν&#945 refers to the final abode of the wicked dead, called The Lake of Fire in The Revelation (20:14, 15). Where this word occurs, the translation should be hell. It is found in Mt. 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 33; Mk. 9:43, 45, 47; Lk. 12:5; Jas. 3:6.
Haides (ἁιδε&#962 refers to the temporary abode of the dead before the resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus, the part reserved for the wicked dead, called haides (αἱδε&#962 (Lk. 16:23), the other for the righteous dead, called Abraham’s bosom (Lk. 16:22), paradise (Lk. 23:43),18 haides (αἱδε&#962 (Acts 2:27, 31); and to the temporary abode of the wicked dead from those events until the Great White Throne judgment, the righteous dead going at once to be with the Lord (Phil. 1:23; II Cor. 5:8). The word haides (αἱδε&#962 is from the Greek stem id (ἰ&#948 which means “to see,” and the Greek letter Alpha prefixed which makes the composite word mean “not to see,” the noun meaning “the unseen.” The word itself in its noun form refers to the unseen world made up of all moral intelligences not possessing a physical body. These would include the holy angels, the fallen angels, the demons, the wicked dead, and the righteous dead. As to the inhabitants in the unseen world, the holy angels are in heaven, the fallen angels in Tartarus, the wicked dead in Hades, the righteous dead in heaven, and the demons in the atmosphere of the earth and in the bottomless pit. All these are included in the unseen world. The context should decide as to whether the Greek word haides (αἱδε&#962 should be transliterated or translated. Where the context deals with departed human beings and their place of abode in the unseen world, it would seem that the word should be transliterated, and the specific name “Hades” be given that place. These places are Mt. 11:23; Lk. 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 6:8, 20:13, 14. Where the context refers to the unseen world as a whole, the word should be translated, as for instance: Mt. 16:18, “the gates (councils) of the Unseen,” namely, the councils of Satan in the unseen world, shall not prevail against the church; or Rev. 1:18, “I have the keys of the Unseen and of death.” Our Lord controls the entire unseen world.
Tartarosas (Ταρταροσα&#962 is the word in II Pet. 2:4 “cast down to hell.” The fallen angels were sent to their temporary prison house, Tartarus (Ταρταρυ&#962, until the Great White Throne judgment. Make a study of these places where the word “hell” occurs, in the light of the distinctive Greek word found in each place, and see how much better you understand these passages.

Wuest, Kenneth S.: Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English Reader. Grand Rapids : Eerdmans, 1997, c1984, S. Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: p.48-49

 

[Timothew]

So do you go to a SDA church? Or do you avoid church all together like the others? Because it's one thing to find 5 churches globally that teach a particular doctrine it's another to find one in your home town to go to. Most people just avoid church when their doctrine gets amiss. But that is a bad thing, no accountability no sunday school for kids etc.

The 5 pastors I mentioned are 5 that I know of. That doesn't mean that there are only 5 evangelical pastors who don't believe there is a hell torture pit in the center of the earth. Incidentally, my doctrine is not "amiss". I believe your doctrine is "amiss", but you share a common error with a lot of people who haven't studied this issue.

I worship God at a church down the street from my house. I am one of the "worship leaders", I play the guitar on the worship team. I am also one of the leaders for one of the youth groups. It is a baptist church. I don't agree with the pastor and the elders on everything, but we discuss the issues. Sometimes I can get them to accept my point of view and sometimes I can't. Sometimes they can get me to their POV and sometimes they can't. The pastor doesn't accept conditional immortality (annihilationism) and I don't want to cause division so I'm not discussing it with anyone else in the church. I talk to him privately, expressing my concerns. I want to be careful with him though, because pastors have been removed from office for holding the annihilationist position and I don't want that to happen to him.

The church is growing and changing and the changes are good. We are in the process of becoming a more biblical church, a New Testament Church. In any process of growth, there are sticky points.

Immature Christians avoid church as soon as they discover something that goes against their church's doctrine, or they change churches. Mature Christians understand that people don't always agree, but we are willing to love each other anyway.

 

[Timothew]

Wuest, Kenneth S.: Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament : For the English Reader. Grand Rapids : Eerdmans, 1997, c1984, S. Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: p.48-49

Wuest is not an unbiased source. I wouldn't rely on him.

 

[theWaris1]

the fact that you can't go to church because you don't agree with them is a problem. God isn't happy with people that don't try.

the fact is that you're assuming that I can't go to church for what ever reason. Church is the body of people and not some building. I spend much time in and around the church probably more time than most.

 

[createdtoworship]

It's good to see people go to church, I was just wondering if people go to the church that actually believes in this version of Hell (that hell is the grave or whatever). I know Jehovah's witness believe that. But it's good to see some unity anyway. Thats what I was worried about anyway.

 

[theWaris1]

It's good to see people go to church, I was just wondering if people go to the church that actually believes in this version of Hell (that hell is the grave or whatever). I know Jehovah's witness believe that. But it's good to see some unity anyway. Thats what I was worried about anyway.

the fact is that you were accusing someone of something you had no idea about. Careful now.

Put your KJV or similar version down long enough to investigate the original scriptures.

Jesus spoke of the blind leading the blind. Most of the world is guilty of allowing blind guides to teach them.

We should be like the Bereans.

http://www.askelm.com/

Ernest L. Martin(Elm) knew very wel that HELL was a falsehood circulating the modern church.