Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[he-man]

The true church will not suffer or spoil this is just speaking of the false church. Christ's bride, the true church will last through all the falsehood. the word ecclesia did not mean "called out ones" in the first century but rather held reference to a general assembly of believers who, most frequently, met together in homes...

Hebrews 12:23 - King James Bible
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

church means ecclesia and it is used in conjuction with general assembly

Congregations of people are called in the scripture. We are called to unite, and serve together. Thats what congregation means. look up eclesia in the scripture it's always a group of believers together. The Greek term ἐκκλησία that in its appearances in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly. It's also what organized religion is (an ecclesia.)

No, organized religion must have a Church building.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G1577 εκκλησίασμα εκκλησίαν congregation[/FONT][/FONT]

An ecclesia is the congregation of believers who, most frequently, met together in homes... WHY did they meet in homes?

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly <G[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]3831[/FONT][/FONT]> and congregation <G1577> of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[createdtoworship]

No, organized religion must have a Church building.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G1577 &#949;&#954;&#954;&#955;&#951;&#963;&#943;&#945;&#963;&#956;&#945; &#949;&#954;&#954;&#955;&#951;&#963;&#943;&#945;&#957; congregation[/FONT][/FONT]

An ecclesia is the congregation of believers who, most frequently, met together in homes... WHY did they meet in homes?

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly <G[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]3831[/FONT][/FONT]> and congregation <G1577> of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

I think you are misquoting that verse to say that God doesn't like church. But the context of acts 17:24 is in relation to the Athenians that actually believed God lived in the temples near the areopagus. Christians don't believe God lives in the churches physically so that verse doesn't apply to us.

secondly, the first churches didn't have money to purchase buildings but they still met together in an organized way in the homes. This is what ecclesia means. Home churches.

Later on the apostolic congregations grew out of their homes and purchased or rented property. But if it is in a temple made with hands, it's okay believe me. God meant for us to be together in unity.

Jesus condoned organized religion, He just replaced the organized religion of the day for a new one.

 

[he-man]

I think you are misquoting that verse to say that God doesn't like church. But the context of acts 17:24 is in relation to the Athenians that actually believed God lived in the temples near the areopagus. Christians don't believe God lives in the churches physically so that verse doesn't apply to us.

secondly, the first churches didn't have money to purchase buildings but they still met together in an organized way in the homes. This is what ecclesia means. Home churches.

Later on the apostolic congregations grew out of their homes and purchased or rented property. But if it is in a temple made with hands, it's okay believe me. God meant for us to be together in unity.

Jesus condoned organized religion, He just replaced the organized religion of the day for a new one.

Yes, it is called the Apostacy they purchased or rented property to stuff their coffers with MONEY.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had many temporalities.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2933 &#954;&#964;&#942;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#954;&#964;&#942;&#963;&#951; temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like; domain and property [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

There is something that bothers me if a literal hell of eternal suffering, torment... anything that is eternal separation from God. If those things exist, how do we read them in light of Revelation 21?

1 Then I saw &#8220;a new heaven and a new earth,&#8221; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, &#8220;Look! God&#8217;s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 &#8216;He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death&#8217; or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.&#8221; 5 He who was seated on the throne said, &#8220;I am making everything new!&#8221; Then he said, &#8220;Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.&#8221;

If God is making all things new, why do we say some people won't enter into life, ever? It seems to contradict the following verses.

6 He said to me: &#8220;It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars&#8212;they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.&#8221;

So which is it? Are all things being made new again or will some people be made to suffer forever? Let's go a step further, are some people going to vanish from even existing in the second death? Will some people pay literally forever for the consequences of their actions in this finite life?

 

[theWaris1]

If God is making all things new, why do we say some people won't enter into life, ever? It seems to contradict the following verses.

So which is it? Are all things being made new again or will some people be made to suffer forever? Let's go a step further, are some people going to vanish from even existing in the second death? Will some people pay literally forever for the consequences of their actions in this finite life?

Entering into New life starts now.
Some won't do that at this time.

read
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

4:11 is a command. Who can teach 4:10 as commanded in verse 11? I can.

Is God the saviour of ALL men are just those who believe and all others are doomed to eternal torment? Taking all parts of scripture and rightly dividing them shows that God isn't going torment anybody for eternity. WE are commanded to teach that God is the saviour of ALL men.


If a fireman showed up at a fire and only saved 3 out 5 people in the house.. Would he be considered the saviour of all people in the fire? Not hardly

God said he never thought of burning sons and daughters in Hell(Gehenna) in the Old Testament. It's a man made idea based on bad translations and fear.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Entering into New life starts now.
Some won't do that at this time.

read
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

4:11 is a command. Who can teach 4:10 as commanded in verse 11? I can.

Is God the saviour of ALL men are just those who believe and all others are doomed to eternal torment? Taking all parts of scripture and rightly dividing them shows that God isn't going torment anybody for eternity. WE are commanded to teach that God is the saviour of ALL men.


If a fireman showed up at a fire and only saved 3 out 5 people in the house.. Would he be considered the saviour of all people in the fire? Not hardly

God said he never thought of burning sons and daughters in Hell(Gehenna) in the Old Testament. It's a man made idea based on bad translations and fear.

Yes, and I agree with you. I'm starting to open up to God actually saving everyone. Its not an easy thing for me to swallow, as it seems too good to be true, but the idea is starting to seem more plausible the more I look into the Hebrew and Greek versions of the text. I hope it to be true

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, it is called the Apostacy they purchased or rented property to stuff their coffers with MONEY.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had many temporalities.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G2933 &#954;&#964;&#942;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#945; &#954;&#964;&#942;&#963;&#951; temporality; the properties and revenues of a religious body or a member of the clergy, especially, the revenue of an ecclesiastic proceeding from lands, tenements, or lay fees, tithes, and the like; domain and property [/FONT][/FONT]

IF there was no tithe the levites wouldn't eat.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes, and I agree with you. I'm starting to open up to God actually saving everyone. Its not an easy thing for me to swallow, as it seems too good to be true, but the idea is starting to seem more plausible the more I look into the Hebrew and Greek versions of the text. I hope it to be true

Jesus said to repent and believe to get eternal life, time and time again. Universalists believe all is saved regardless of beliefs, and this is clearly been pointed wrong in many many verses.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Which, again, begs the questions

What does eternal mean in greek and hebrew?

Why is a hell full of suffering and burning never really mentioned in the Old Testament?

Why were the Hebrews so vague about who ends up where in the afterlife in the Old Testament?

How does using the names Lazarus and Abraham prove that the story found in Luke 16 is talking about literal hell fire?

Why does it say that the rich man went to Hades? Why are there so many similarities between the rich man and the Jews and Lazarus and the gentiles?

Why does God say He is making all things new?

Its hardly been clear that God is wanting any person to burn forever. Its clear as skubala.

Jesus said that whoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. But he also tells the rich young man to follow the commandments.

Mark 10

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. &#8220;Good teacher,&#8221; he asked, &#8220;what must I do to inherit eternal life?&#8221;
18 &#8220;Why do you call me good?&#8221; Jesus answered. &#8220;No one is good&#8212;except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: &#8216;You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.&#8221;

20 &#8220;Teacher,&#8221; he declared, &#8220;all these I have kept since I was a boy.&#8221;

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. &#8220;One thing you lack,&#8221; he said. &#8220;Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.&#8221;

22 At this the man&#8217;s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, &#8220;How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!&#8221;

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, &#8220;Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.&#8221;

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, &#8220;Who then can be saved?&#8221;

27 Jesus looked at them and said, &#8220;With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.&#8221;

28 Then Peter spoke up, &#8220;We have left everything to follow you!&#8221;

29 &#8220;Truly I tell you,&#8221; Jesus replied, &#8220;no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields&#8212;along with persecutions&#8212;and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.&#8221;

So the question is, did this rich young man enter into eternal life? He clearly believed in Jesus, yet he did not keep the last commandment about coveting....the rich young man was greedy in the sense that he did not want to let go of his wealth. Perhaps this man had been known for taking what he wanted, whenever he pleased. By that I mean, the rich young man was an excellent business man, perhaps to a fault. So did this man die and go to hell, as even Jesus comments on how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven? But if this is so, why does it mention specifically that Jesus looked at him and loved him, him being the rich young man?

Its interesting what else Revelation 21 has to say about the gates of heaven

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb&#8217;s book of life.

So those whose names are written in the book of life will be the only ones allowed to enter, but the gates will never be shut? What does this mean?

Also, why did Jesus preach so much about returning to glory, about someone going out of their way to look for something that is lost? The parables of the lost coin, the shepherd and the lost sheep, and the prodigal son come to mind. These parables talk about the one who has lost something or someone of value looking for the thing they hold dearest until they have found it.

I'm just saying, its biased to say its clear God wants to punish sinners forever and ever (as opposed to just forever without that last ever bit added on). There are several good arguments for God saving everyone while still punishing them and purifying them.

EDIT:

Another interesting set of verses.

Ezekiel 16

49 &#8220;&#8216;Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 &#8220;&#8216;However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.

This is Sodom and Gomorrah, the poster children for evil towns. Isn't it fascinating how God's judgement is to restore Sodom and her sisters to make them feel ashamed? What could this be talking about?

 

[theWaris1]

Jesus said to repent and believe to get eternal life, time and time again. Universalists believe all is saved regardless of beliefs, and this is clearly been pointed wrong in many many verses.

One could have eternal life as soon as they repented.

Only those whom God draws can be saved. It's seems that he isn't calling or drawing all men at this time although he said "and I being lifted up will draw ALL men unto myself." When?
When will every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord of all? That is a promise. Is it happening today? Does it mean only those who love him will?
To Bow is submission & confession leads to salvation

Does the opportunity to be saved end at the death of a person? That is what the church has taught.

Can God still cleanse every man after death if he chooses to? He did say his desire is that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. Do you believe that God can't have his desires fulfilled?


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There are no exceptions. Romans 5 reiterates this same message several times with different wording.

 

[createdtoworship]

One could have eternal life as soon as they repented.

Only those whom God draws can be saved. It's seems that he isn't calling or drawing all men at this time although he said "and I being lifted up will draw ALL men unto myself." When?
When will every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord of all? That is a promise. Is it happening today? Does it mean only those who love him will?
To Bow is submission & confession leads to salvation

Does the opportunity to be saved end at the death of a person? That is what the church has taught.

Can God still cleanse every man after death if he chooses to? He did say his desire is that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. Do you believe that God can't have his desires fulfilled?


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There are no exceptions. Romans 5 reiterates this same message several times with different wording.

if there is currently a command to repent, then universalism is wrong.

It doesn't matter if He referred to future salvation because the command to repent will also be in the future.

 

[createdtoworship]

Which, again, begs the questions

What does eternal mean in greek and hebrew?

Why is a hell full of suffering and burning never really mentioned in the Old Testament?

Why were the Hebrews so vague about who ends up where in the afterlife in the Old Testament?

How does using the names Lazarus and Abraham prove that the story found in Luke 16 is talking about literal hell fire?

Why does it say that the rich man went to Hades? Why are there so many similarities between the rich man and the Jews and Lazarus and the gentiles?

Why does God say He is making all things new?

Its hardly been clear that God is wanting any person to burn forever. Its clear as skubala.

Jesus said that whoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. But he also tells the rich young man to follow the commandments.

Mark 10

17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.”

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

24 The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

28 Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”

29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”

So the question is, did this rich young man enter into eternal life? He clearly believed in Jesus, yet he did not keep the last commandment about coveting....the rich young man was greedy in the sense that he did not want to let go of his wealth. Perhaps this man had been known for taking what he wanted, whenever he pleased. By that I mean, the rich young man was an excellent business man, perhaps to a fault. So did this man die and go to hell, as even Jesus comments on how hard it is for the rich to enter heaven? But if this is so, why does it mention specifically that Jesus looked at him and loved him, him being the rich young man?

Its interesting what else Revelation 21 has to say about the gates of heaven

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

So those whose names are written in the book of life will be the only ones allowed to enter, but the gates will never be shut? What does this mean?

Also, why did Jesus preach so much about returning to glory, about someone going out of their way to look for something that is lost? The parables of the lost coin, the shepherd and the lost sheep, and the prodigal son come to mind. These parables talk about the one who has lost something or someone of value looking for the thing they hold dearest until they have found it.

I'm just saying, its biased to say its clear God wants to punish sinners forever and ever (as opposed to just forever without that last ever bit added on). There are several good arguments for God saving everyone while still punishing them and purifying them.

EDIT:

Another interesting set of verses.

Ezekiel 16

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous.

53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.

This is Sodom and Gomorrah, the poster children for evil towns. Isn't it fascinating how God's judgement is to restore Sodom and her sisters to make them feel ashamed? What could this be talking about?

lazerus and the rich man

 

[he-man]

One could have eternal life as soon as they repented.

Only those whom God draws can be saved. It's seems that he isn't calling or drawing all men at this time although he said "and I being lifted up will draw ALL men unto myself." When?
When will every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord of all? That is a promise. Is it happening today? Does it mean only those who love him will?
To Bow is submission & confession leads to salvation

Does the opportunity to be saved end at the death of a person? That is what the church has taught.

Can God still cleanse every man after death if he chooses to? He did say his desire is that all men come to the knowledge of truth and be saved. Do you believe that God can't have his desires fulfilled?


Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

There are no exceptions. Romans 5 reiterates this same message several times with different wording.

Romans 14 clarifes this same message several times with different wording for those who are teaching things which they ought not

Rom 14:11 For it is written, I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn and live ye.

Psa 63:11 But the king shall rejoice in God; every one that sweareth by him shall glory: but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped

Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

lazerus and the rich man

*slaps forehead*

its a good thing I love you man lol.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So which is it? Are all things being made new again or will some people be made to suffer forever? Let's go a step further, are some people going to vanish from even existing in the second death? Will some people pay literally forever for the consequences of their actions in this finite life?

I've repeated this about a dozen times, but no one, especially Timothew, has any comment on it:

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13

​

They are twice dead and yet eternal darkness (a kind of existence) is reserved for them. I think the second death refers to the soul, as per Matthew 10:28, and yet the spirit continues to exist in the manner if Jude 1:13.

 

[LutheranMafia]

If Lazarus and the rich man is a parable that is not real, then Samaritans must not exist either, because that was a parable. This assertion that because it is a parable it is not real is absurd. Parables are about inherently real circumstances and background, they do not exist as cartoons with no reality.

 

[Timothew]

I've repeated this about a dozen times, but no one, especially Timothew, has any comment on it:

They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted&#8212;twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:12-13

​

They are twice dead and yet eternal darkness (a kind of existence) is reserved for them. I think the second death refers to the soul, as per Matthew 10:28, and yet the spirit continues to exist in the manner if Jude 1:13.

I've commented on that verse before, remember? twice dead? This is a lot like once dead, but more so? twice dead, much like being subject to the second death? Not tormented for all eternity, but dead? Like Miracle Max says "All dead". Not just Mostly Dead. With all dead all you can do is go through his pockets and look for loose change.

Twice dead. Coincidentally, Jude agrees with me. Actually not a coincidence since he is an Apostle and a scripture writer and my POV came directly out of scripture.

I'm the guy who says the lost are dead remember? And here is Jude saying the same thing, the lost are twice dead. Hello?

 

[Timothew]

If Lazarus and the rich man is a parable that is not real, then Samaritans must not exist either, because that was a parable. This assertion that because it is a parable it is not real is absurd. Parables are about inherently real circumstances and background, they do not exist as cartoons with no reality.

Since Samaritans exist, then every word of every parable is literally true?

Interesting.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

If Lazarus and the rich man is a parable that is not real, then Samaritans must not exist either, because that was a parable. This assertion that because it is a parable it is not real is absurd. Parables are about inherently real circumstances and background, they do not exist as cartoons with no reality.

Your logic is saying that because Samaritans were used in a parable, then they didn't exist. However the people then widely hated Samaritans, which is why Jesus chose to use them in that example. So yeah, its obvious to say they did exist. In the same breath, you claim that because Jesus talked about hades, that that place had to exist too.

Essentially, you're comparing something that may or may not exist in a literal sense to a group of people the Jews loathed and say they both have to exist if both were used in parables. This is very weak logic. I guess the best example would be comparing apples to oranges. The tangible and intangible are getting tangled up, assuming that what's true for one is true for another.

As far as Jude goes, we only have to look at the word forever. Forever did not mean an infinite amount of time indefinitely but an undetermined amount of time, an age. The end of this age is the beginning of the next age.

As far as the blackest darkness goes, in Revelations 21 it mentions that the Holy City is coming down out of heaven from God, that God's dwelling place is among the people now.

Now, its really interesting when you consider that the word heaven was also used in place of God, because the Jews considered God's name to be so sacred some wouldn't even dare speak His name. But heaven was also used as a term for paradise.

At any rate, God is now living among the people. Its interesting, what else Revelations 21 has to say.

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

What does it mean by "on no day will its gates ever be shut, for there is no night there?"

It kind of confirms and contradicts what Jude was saying. If the forever in Jude is an undetermined amount of time and heaven's gates are never shut and there is no night at heavens gates, and the people outside those gates are wandering stars, it almost seems like God is leaving it open for them to find. Of course, only those whose name is in the lamb's book of life will enter. The question is then, how is your name written in that book of life?

That's my interpretation of it anyway. Its not perfect, but it doesn't have to be. My point is, is God's love open enough for everyone to be saved? Will the best of us, such as Ghandi and Mother Teresa, and the worst of us, Hitler, be saved, even if it takes forever? Is it possible for God? Does God even want that?

 

[he-man]

23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory offor many,, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there.

What does it mean by "on no day will its gates ever be shut, for there is no night there?"

Luke explains that means after the Kingdom is established on earth:
Luk 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: I say unto you, for many will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Psa 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.