Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[LutheranMafia]

I guess my point is that what definition comes first, or is most popular, does not determine the meaning of a word. Its how its used.

Whose side are you arguing for? This could apply to anyone's argument here. I'm just wondering, you play your cards so close to your vest.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Wake up folks! What time is it??!

 

[createdtoworship]

This may be off topic, but it made me question how a definition is labeled first, second, or third and how that affects its meaning.

For example, if I said that I know this girl Gracie, what do I mean?

1. She's someone I am familiar with.

2. She's a friend/acquaintance of mine.

3. She's someone I have had sex with.

4. A combination of any of the previous three choices.

Really, any definition could fit. It depends on the context of whom I was addressing and how I was addressing them.

I guess my point is that what definition comes first, or is most popular, does not determine the meaning of a word. Its how its used.

I should say our contexts went out the window when our definitions went out the window. They go hand in hand.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I'm surprised you didn't catch that as its a part of the KJV (as well as many other versions) speech.

Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Genesis 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Did Adam forget his wife in the span of twenty something verses or does it mean he had sexual intercourse with his wife?

As far as who side I'm on, I don't place myself on anyone's side. Not because I'm trying to be hip or cool or a rebel, but because my thoughts are not absolute. I agree with you on some things Mr. Lutheran, but not on others. I agree with Mr. Gradyll on some things even though we do seem to disagree on a lot. We all believe in God and Christ though. I don't really know if I want to go back to having a denomination as I tend to find some things in each denomination that I don't like. I'm still trying to figure out what I believe, I'm testing the spirits right now. I admit, I'm not very religious at all, but I believe God exists and I believe Christ is the son of God. I believe Jesus is the word become flesh. I ask questions not because I expect answers, but I want people to think about it, or at least tell me their thoughts on such questions. I came from a Southern Baptist background, and was raised that way for 19 years or so. I don't agree with a lot of that denominations beliefs now, or at least I'm heavily questioning those beliefs to see if they stand strong.

I guess the reason I mentioned the definition thing is that it struck me odd how the most popular definition automatically equals the correct definition. We don't go around claiming to "know" people now days, but it was a figure of speech for a while. People have stopped using that phrase for the most part now. Hell and Gehenna and Tartarus and Hades...its strange to think how those words were used back then. If this tells you anything, I was surprised to see Hades used in place of Hell when I first picked up a NIV a few years back. I had never been taught that, I was taught KJV was the best translation possible, that all others were misinterpreted. While I think the KJV was a wonderful thing as it lead to tons of people getting to know Christ, I wouldn't say its the most accurate translation.

 

[Superfast]

Wake up folks! What time is it??!

I know I know, it's howdy doody time.

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm surprised you didn't catch that as its a part of the KJV (as well as many other versions) speech.

Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Genesis 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

Did Adam forget his wife in the span of twenty something verses or does it mean he had sexual intercourse with his wife?

As far as who side I'm on, I don't place myself on anyone's side. Not because I'm trying to be hip or cool or a rebel, but because my thoughts are not absolute. I agree with you on some things Mr. Lutheran, but not on others. I agree with Mr. Gradyll on some things even though we do seem to disagree on a lot. We all believe in God and Christ though. I don't really know if I want to go back to having a denomination as I tend to find some things in each denomination that I don't like. I'm still trying to figure out what I believe, I'm testing the spirits right now. I admit, I'm not very religious at all, but I believe God exists and I believe Christ is the son of God. I believe Jesus is the word become flesh. I ask questions not because I expect answers, but I want people to think about it, or at least tell me their thoughts on such questions. I came from a Southern Baptist background, and was raised that way for 19 years or so. I don't agree with a lot of that denominations beliefs now, or at least I'm heavily questioning those beliefs to see if they stand strong.

I guess the reason I mentioned the definition thing is that it struck me odd how the most popular definition automatically equals the correct definition. We don't go around claiming to "know" people now days, but it was a figure of speech for a while. People have stopped using that phrase for the most part now. Hell and Gehenna and Tartarus and Hades...its strange to think how those words were used back then. If this tells you anything, I was surprised to see Hades used in place of Hell when I first picked up a NIV a few years back. I had never been taught that, I was taught KJV was the best translation possible, that all others were misinterpreted. While I think the KJV was a wonderful thing as it lead to tons of people getting to know Christ, I wouldn't say its the most accurate translation.

there are inaccuracies in every version, but in the KJV there seems to be the least amount of inaccuracies from the greek text. But NASB and ESV are pretty good too. The important thing is they are accurate where it counts, in the wording of Hell.

 

[Jpark]

I see discussion about Rev. 20:14 in here but has anyone in this debate even read Rev. 20:13? Context is important.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

If 'the sea' is literal, death and Hades (it is to be treated as one word if 'the sea' is literal) must be referring to the grave. Hence, Rev. 20:14 actually says "Then the grave was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

But where is the grave located?

Matt. 12:40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Numbers 16:29-33

Rev. 9:2-3 He opened the bottomless pit [Lit 'shaft of the abyss'], and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon [Lit 'into'] the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

So the earth's surface will collapse and will fall into it's core.

But that is not how the world will end. This is:

2 peter 3:10; 1 chronicles 16:30; psalm 104:5; job 18:4; job 34:14-15 NASB; - A New Heaven and Earth But the day of - Bible Gateway

Hence, also why there will be no sea.

 

[Ed Bana]

Where you mess up is you take everything literal. God is a Spirit.

God hides his deep truths.. a literal Biblical fact.

Glory of God to CONCEAL......

when you try to define words in greek you always pick the second or third definition and not the first, this is where you mess up.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I came from a Southern Baptist background, and was raised that way for 19 years or so.

Well, I can understand you having serious questions about your upbringing coming from such a background.

People have stopped using that phrase for the most part now. Hell and Gehenna and Tartarus and Hades...

I think it makes a big difference. Gehenna is the lake of fire, Tartarus is a place for evil angels, and Hades is the abode of the dead, much like Sheol, which is not necessarily bad or good.

 

[createdtoworship]

I see discussion about Rev. 20:14 in here but has anyone in this debate even read Rev. 20:13? Context is important.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

If 'the sea' is literal, death and Hades (it is to be treated as one word if 'the sea' is literal) must be referring to the grave. Hence, Rev. 20:14 actually says "Then the grave was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Rev. 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

But where is the grave located?

Matt. 12:40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Numbers 16:29-33

Rev. 9:2-3 He opened the bottomless pit [Lit 'shaft of the abyss'], and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon [Lit 'into'] the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

So the earth's surface will collapse and will fall into it's core.

But that is not how the world will end. This is:

2 peter 3:10; 1 chronicles 16:30; psalm 104:5; job 18:4; job 34:14-15 NASB; - A New Heaven and Earth But the day of - Bible Gateway

Hence, also why there will be no sea.

the grave is in the earth, thats where it's located.

 

[Timothew]

That is a very convoluted picture. I think I'll need a map and a GPS when I die.

 

[he-man]

That is a very convoluted picture. I think I'll need a map and a GPS when I die.

DEATH: he who does not have the Son of God does not have life...

Mat 13:49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not, God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting chastizement: but the righteous into life eternal.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

 

[LutheranMafia]

That is a very convoluted picture. I think I'll need a map and a GPS when I die.

In my Father's house are many mansions
John 14:2
​

Of course the afterlife is a complicated place. The real picture is much more complex than Grady's picture. It is a place much more vast than the Earth. Think about it, where would all the people fit if they were crammed into the one size fits all afterlife that you are contriving? In reality there is enough space Up there and Down there to fit a hundred Earths. All the people from all history have to fit into the palce, so what else were you expecting, Timothew?

 

[Timothew]

In my Father's house are many mansions
John 14:2
​

Of course the afterlife is a complicated place. The real picture is much more complex than Grady's picture. It is a place much more vast than the Earth. Think about it, where would all the people fit if they were crammed into the one size fits all afterlife that you are contriving? In reality there is enough space Up there and Down there to fit a hundred Earths. All the people from all history have to fit into the palce, so what else were you expecting, Timothew?

I was expecting what the bible says to be true. The wages of sin is death, I expect that is death, being dead. The gift of God is eternal life in Christ, being alive eternally, because of Christ. You know, simple literal minded me. There is death, eternally. OR there is life, eternally.

I don't really need a dispensational roadmap to find my way after I die. I just have to listen for Christ's Call. "Get up Timmy, it's time to live again!"

 

[Jpark]

the grave is in the earth, thats where it's located.

Nice picture and all, but those are all in the same place, the earth's core.

Hell is merely a part of the lake of fire. And Tartarus is merely a part of the abyss.

Also, I think Jesus was referring to a heavenly place when He said that to the thief. Is there really 1 Paradise or are there 2 Paradises?

In fact, I always assumed that the Paradise in Luke 16 was referring to a heavenly one.

This is what a chasm looks like. It's more likely that the chasm is the distance between heaven and earth.

 

[createdtoworship]

Nice picture and all, but those are all in the same place, the earth's core.

Hell is merely a part of the lake of fire. And Tartarus is merely a part of the abyss.

Also, I think Jesus was referring to a heavenly place when He said that to the thief. Is there really 1 Paradise or are there 2 Paradises?

In fact, I always assumed that the Paradise in Luke 16 was referring to a heavenly one.

This is what a chasm looks like. It's more likely that the chasm is the distance between heaven and earth.

nice theories but when it's all said and done, we need verses to back up.

 

[Timothew]

nice theories but when it's all said and done, we need verses to back up.

I think it may be a mistake to come up with a theory, draw a picture, and then go looking for verses to back them up.

 

[he-man]

I think it may be a mistake to come up with a theory, draw a picture, and then go looking for verses to back them up.

A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity and at the end of the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said:

Mat 7:13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wideisthe gate, and broadisthe way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

10:33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 13:24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Mat 7:14Because straitisthe gate, and narrowisthe way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Isa 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Isa 17:6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the LORD God of Israel.

1Jn 5:19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness

11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[Timothew]

Help me come up with a wacky theory and we will search the scriptures to support it.

Dogs go to heaven and Cats go to hell.

Dogs submit to their masters as good christians should do.

Cats are in a constant state of rebellion.

 

[Timothew]

Here is the picture which proves all dogs go to heaven and all cats go to hell.