Legalism

[bugkiller]

What does commandments written on stone vs written on parchment mean to you? Maybe nothing, idk. Btw, I did give scripture earlier in this thread of the 10 Commandments being kept under the Mercy seat, within the ark vs the ordinances which were written on paper and kept outside the ark.... again, propbably means nothing to you but details matter. God does not act randomly and there is a reason for everything He does and how He does it.

Produce those tablets.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Looks like we will be keeping sabbath in the millennial kingdom unless this was a false prophesy. So did the law fade away just to come back later? That seems kind of random for God to do considering he declared it to be perpetual and forever in Exodus 31:16-17 and said there is to be one law for Israel and stranger alike in Exodus 12:49. Seems like it only all fits together more logically if the law still applied to us today.

How when Isa 66:23 says absolutely nothing about "on" the Sabbath?

bugkiller

 

[Cribstyl]

So then the answer is no, you can't show from the Bible, that Christ rescinded the original Sabbath Commandment or instituted a new Sabbath, before His death.

You're ignoring the fact that the Sabbath commandment was an exclusively covenant with the Children of Israel and not the world. That means when the Old covenant was set aside and replaced by the New Covenant those who rejected Christ continued in their covenant.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

You're ignoring the fact that the Sabbath commandment was an exclusively covenant with the Children of Israel and not the world. That means when the Old covenant was set aside and replaced by the New Covenant those who rejected Christ continued in their covenant.

And I understand that is your contention.... but without a "thus saith the Lord" on this matter, it is nothing but speculation, imagination and wishful thinking for those that don't want to be obedient to God's Word.

 

[BrianJK]

And I understand that is your contention.... but without a "thus saith the Lord" on this matter, it is nothing but speculation, imagination and wishful thinking for those that don't want to be obedient to God's Word.

No we're all perfectly happy being obedient to anything required of us... just not the extra stuff that was required of other people.

 

[Cribstyl]

And I understand that is your contention.... but without a "thus saith the Lord" on this matter, it is nothing but speculation, imagination and wishful thinking for those that don't want to be obedient to God's Word.

Enough of that Simon sez stuff you're talking about. God's word is crystal clear about whom the Sabbaths was given to. The speculation, imagination and stinking thinking come from those who wont accept biblical truth. Because it contradicts their church doctrines.
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
The scriptures spells out when, why and to whom the Sabbath was given.
If you told yourself that God gave His Sabbaths to the children of Israel you'd be correct according to the scriptures.
If you told yourself that God gave the Sabbath to Adam, you have the burden proof to show us where it written in the scriptures. At the end of the day, we don't expect to find what would be contradictions to whom God and Moses says He gave the Sabbath to. We expect you to ignore and rant against the scriptures, because you cant prove your case.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Enough of that Simon sez stuff you're talking about. God's word is crystal clear about whom the Sabbaths was given to. The speculation, imagination and stinking thinking come from those who wont accept biblical truth. Because it contradicts their church doctrines.
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

If you told yourself that God gave His Sabbaths to the children of Israel you'd be correct according to the scriptures.
If you told yourself that God gave the Sabbath to Adam, you should have the burden proof to show us where it written in the scriptures. At the end of the day, we don't expect to find what would be contradictions to whom God gave the Sabbath. We expect you to cry foul, because you cant prove your case.

But Crib... we are the children of Israel through adoption...

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Galatians 6:14-16
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is this last verse not about us Gentiles Crib? We are considered part of the house of Israel by adoption through Jesus.

 

[Travis93]

You're ignoring the fact that the Sabbath commandment was an exclusively covenant with the Children of Israel and not the world. That means when the Old covenant was set aside and replaced by the New Covenant those who rejected Christ continued in their covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant I make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sounds to me like it has nothing to do with getting rid of the law. Rather the opposite, it seems to be about causing the people of Israel to become more obedient to the law. Plus read the rest of the prophecy (Jeremiah 31:34-40) and you will see God promises to never forsake the nation of Israel no matter what they do, and that the city will be rebuilt in end times never to be destroyed again.

 

[Cribstyl]

But Crib... we are the children of Israel through adoption...

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

You're ducking the facts of our previous discussion by making new outrageous remarks.
You are so wrong with these texts. It's saying that Israel is identified as those whom God has adopted.
They are whom His glory appear to from Sinai.
They are to whom He gave the covenants.
They are to whom He gave the law.
They are who served as priests.
They are whom He gave promises to.
They are who came from the fathers.
They are in the lineage from whom comes Jesus Christ. (These scriptures SDA must hold loosely because they contradict SDA claims about who was given the law and the Sabbath)

Where it goes on to explain that not all Israel is of Israel, is not complicated to understand. It's saying not 100% of all Abraham's descendants are heirs of the promise. Isaac in, Ishmael out, Jacob in, Esau out. You don't understand that it's still pointing within and not to outside the Children of Israel.

Galatians 6:14-16
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Just a shout out to Israel..... This is not saying that you can claim to be the Children of Israel. By stacking this words game "Israel of God" you're trying to pull a fast one. You got to be kidding me.

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Amateur mirror game... Being a fellow citizens with saints makes you a Christian, it does not change your native culture one iota... You don't become Jewish.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is this last verse not about us Gentiles Crib? We are considered part of the house of Israel by adoption through Jesus.

Nope.... The same people who God made the Old Covenant with, is whom He told He would give a new covenant. Remember that it would not be like the on given to their fathers. Understanding that God's word does not return to Him void. It accomplishes what He promised. He promised Abraham all nations would be blessed through His seed (Jesus).

 

[Raeneske]

Boy, you left yourself wide open on your point. Jesus didn't say anything about any of the old covenant commandments nor did He say anything about the sacrificial system being replaced by Him. He didn't tell us to stop killing animals for Sabbath observance. Jesus did tell us that the Torah would remain until all was fulfilled (to bring to an end; finish or complete). He also said not one jot nor one tittle could be deleted from Torah until all the Torah is fulfilled. Do you contend that not all was fulfilled? That would mean that we are fully under all the laws of Torah, all 613 of them. Are you willing to change your belief system to include all the law?

I have been waiting for you to admit that Paul was wrong. That leaves me to believe that if John or Peter wrote something that put a wrinkle in your preconceived ideas that you would deny their writings too. The Bible tells us that both Paul and John were Jesus ambassadors to us. They both were fed by the Holy Spirit to relate His word. Maybe you should reconsider and for starters read Acts 1 and Acts 9.

Jesus was not speaking of the Torah in Matthew 5, or else it would still remain to be observed until this day.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


If this was literally speaking about the Torah, this passage would be utterly confusing. For then Jesus would be saying, "I am not come to destroy, but to abolish it". Destroy is a synonym of abolish. That forces the Scriptures to contradict, and cannot possibly be right. Now the underlined text says, "Til heaven and earth pass". Have heaven and earth passed away? If not, why are we saying that the commandment which refers to the creation of heaven and earth, has passed away? What's more, is that there's actually a prophecy that speaks of the passing away of heaven and earth.


Isaiah 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Even in the new heavens, and new earth, the Sabbath will still be kept. Why? Because Jesus better explains in Luke what He meant when He said the law would not pass away.



Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[Cribstyl]

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant I make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sounds to me like it has nothing to do with getting rid of the law. Rather the opposite, it seems to be about causing the people of Israel to become more obedient to the law. Plus read the rest of the prophecy (Jeremiah 31:34-40) and you will see God promises to never forsake the nation of Israel no matter what they do, and that the city will be rebuilt in end times never to be destroyed again.

I encourage you to do an independent study on the covenants in the bible. God does attach commandments and law to covenants. You need to see and understand that God attached the Mosaic Covenant to the Abrahamic Covenant.

 

[Bob S]

A number of confessions of faith (even among pro-sunday groups) admit that the TEN Commandments including the Sabbath are still binding on all God's people

As we saw HERE - Jun 17, 2016 #56 in the case of D.L. Moody
As we saw HERE - Jun 17, 2016 #57 in the case of the Baptist Confession of Faith

As we saw HERE - #123 in the case of the Westminster Confession of Faith

You didn't even read my question correctly or you would have given me a much different answer.

I really do not care what confessions of faith say they believe. They are wrong about many Bible facts. Why do you go to Babylon to get your propaganda? Why don't you stick to scripture like the rest of us do?

 

[bugkiller]

And I understand that is your contention.... but without a "thus saith the Lord" on this matter, it is nothing but speculation, imagination and wishful thinking for those that don't want to be obedient to God's Word.

NOPE!!!

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3

Yes I understand none of the above contain your demanded phrase. The Scripture is a "thus saith the Lord.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

But Crib... we are the children of Israel through adoption...

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Galatians 6:14-16
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is this last verse not about us Gentiles Crib? We are considered part of the house of Israel by adoption through Jesus.

No we're not considered part of the house of Israel. See the promise covenant made with Abraham about many nations.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant I make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Sounds to me like it has nothing to do with getting rid of the law. Rather the opposite, it seems to be about causing the people of Israel to become more obedient to the law. Plus read the rest of the prophecy (Jeremiah 31:34-40) and you will see God promises to never forsake the nation of Israel no matter what they do, and that the city will be rebuilt in end times never to be destroyed again.

The word new here means to cut a new stone. Besides you leave out the middle part of the sentence which says "not according to..." This makes it impossible to be the same law merely move. On top of that Heb 8:6 says better promises.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus was not speaking of the Torah in Matthew 5, or else it would still remain to be observed until this day.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


If this was literally speaking about the Torah, this passage would be utterly confusing. For then Jesus would be saying, "I am not come to destroy, but to abolish it". Destroy is a synonym of abolish. That forces the Scriptures to contradict, and cannot possibly be right. Now the underlined text says, "Til heaven and earth pass". Have heaven and earth passed away? If not, why are we saying that the commandment which refers to the creation of heaven and earth, has passed away? What's more, is that there's actually a prophecy that speaks of the passing away of heaven and earth.


Isaiah 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Even in the new heavens, and new earth, the Sabbath will still be kept. Why? Because Jesus better explains in Luke what He meant when He said the law would not pass away.



Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Because you simply reject LK 24:44 as true.

bugkiller

 

[Bob S]

Jesus was not speaking of the Torah in Matthew 5, or else it would still remain to be observed until this day.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Why should I believe you. It is easy to tell me that it wasn't Torah without telling me what it really was. You are not the only one who does this on the forum, but that does not make it the correct way to debate.

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes, all was fulfilled at the Cross. The old covenant (Torah) came to an end when God finally ended the covenant and Jesus ushered in the new covenant with His own blood.

If this was literally speaking about the Torah, this passage would be utterly confusing. For then Jesus would be saying, "I am not come to destroy, but to abolish it". Destroy is a synonym of abolish.

Actually you are confused. Jesus didn't have to abolish the old covenant. It ended because the covenant was continuously broken by Israel.

That forces the Scriptures to contradict, and cannot possibly be right. Now the underlined text says, "Til heaven and earth pass". Have heaven and earth passed away? If not, why are we saying that the commandment which refers to the creation of heaven and earth, has passed away? What's more, is that there's actually a prophecy that speaks of the passing away of heaven and earth.

Jesus used that cliche as a point then modified it with the word "until". That makes your point clearly mute.

Isaiah 66:22-23 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isaiah made several prophetic statements in Is 65-66 that are not able to be understood and seem to be a conundrum. Is 65:17
“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.


20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
In Is 66 we find this in the new earth: 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

 

[Travis93]

In the rich man and Lazarus story, notice what Abraham tells the rich man.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay father Abraham; but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto them, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Sounds like the law and the prophets are very important to Jesus's message to me. He had the same message they did.
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

So knowing that Jesus taught not to ignore the law or teach others to do so (Matthew 7:17-19), any interpretation of the epistles should reflect that, or they should be discarded as the work of false prophets.

 

[Cribstyl]

But Crib... we are the children of Israel through adoption...

Romans 9:4-7
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

You're mistaken with these texts. It's saying that Israel is identified as those whom God adopted, They are whom His glory appear to from Sinai, They're to whom He gave the covenants, They're to whom He gave the law, They're who served as priests and they're whom He gave promises to. They are who came from the fathers, and they're the lineage of Jesus Christ. (These scriptures you hold loosely because they contradict SDA doctrine about who was given the law (including the Sabbath)
Where it goes on to explain that not all Israel is of Israel, is not complicated to understand. It's saying not 100% of all Abraham's descendants are heirs of the promise. Isaac in, Ishmael out, Jacob in, Esau out.

Galatians 6:14-16
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

These scriptures are no saying what you're implying. You appear to be stacking a word game. Gotta be kidding.

Ephesians 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Is this last verse not about us Gentiles Crib? We are considered part of the house of Israel by adoption through Jesus.

No it's not.......... all false.......shameful

 

[Raeneske]

Why should I believe you. It is easy to tell me that it wasn't Torah without telling me what it really was. You are not the only one who does this on the forum, but that does not make it the correct way to debate.

First, I'm not here for a debate. But Christ is speaking about the 10 Commandments being fulfilled in Matthew 5. The problem with making this the law of Moses is that you force the Scriptures to contradict themselves when you say that. Let me try once more.

Yes, all was fulfilled at the Cross. The old covenant (Torah) came to an end when God finally ended the covenant and Jesus ushered in the new covenant with His own blood.

Actually you are confused. Jesus didn't have to abolish the old covenant. It ended because the covenant was continuously broken by Israel.

Look first at this verse:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This plainly says Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Now, look at Matthew 5 again.

Matthew 5:17-18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Either the law of commandments contained in ordinances was abolished, or it was not. Ephesians is clear, it says it was. So then it cannot be the law contained in ordinances Jesus was talking about in Matthew 5. If fulfil in this passage means "abolish even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" then Jesus contradicted Himself. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law (defining law here as the law of commandments contained in ordinances), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to abolish the law of commandments contained in ordinances." That is 100% a contradiction. Therefore, first we must not redefine fulfil to mean abolish at the cross. And second, we must realize the law spoken of here, is not the law of commandments contained in ordinances.