Legalism Is Baffling

[Fireinfolding]

I don't see him directly in favor of it other than with Timothy, though I think he only spoke against it for incorrect purposes.

You believe Paul himself spoke against it for incorrect purposes?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You asked the question: “But do you know any Christians who walk in the Spirit all the time…?”

Let me ask you: Have you ever been around a group of mostly new Christians, who if they show the slightest weakness, not doing what Christ would do and even think what Christ would not think, in every situation risked being seen by some very sneaky fellows who will tell some really bad guys you are not fully committed and those really bad guys will come and beat you maybe to death, to try and make you their slaves.

I can give you my personal story of God seeing to my humiliation, for I thought I was a Spiritual giant in the Kingdom, had done about every good thing you could and knew it all.

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump in.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteered to substitute teach) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (“going to school”, it is called), they start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets, they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (granny conversions), but on the first day they are seen watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. Their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls who then approach these “Christians” saying: “you are not a Christian” (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized, gives up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could lead to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them.

I had many hard nights praying over those young men. I Loved them and empathetically to some degree suffered with them.

They really did not talk about “not sinning”, but what better thing they could be doing each and every minute of the day and night. If they did sin, even with their thoughts, they confessed immediately to everyone (all around so the snitches could hear it also), asking for help, prays and ideas on doing better, yet this was not a daily action for everyone.

It is not so much not wanting to sin but wanting to be a Christ like Christian (witness). This was not done to please the guards because the guards did not like them witnessing to them and the fact others might beat on them caused them added work to break up the beatings.

Maybe we do not see the Spirit working in us because we quench Him or are not in situations of really needing Him. Severe persecution brings out the Spirit in those who have the Spirit.

I really feel some did go days without sinning or should I say: “Some went days doing stuff the Holy Spirit could participate with them for 24 hours.”

One example of what I learned from them was: “You do not even try to keep from sinning (be on the defensive), but try to be involved in the next minute, in doing something really good (constantly on the offensive) then the Holy Spirit can be involved with you, and you keep doing good stuff all day and night and pick it up the next day”. You just do not have time to be involved in any sinning.

The "Law" is now written on our hearts: "Love God and secondly others with all your heart soul, mind, and energy."

That is definately a ministry filled with successes and also challenges. My prayers are with you and your men.

You objected to this sentence of mine: "But do you know any Christians who walk in the Spirit all the time and have no need for God's grace to cover their sins?" However, I read your whole post and it looks like you agreed with me that the answer is "no". Am I missing something?

 

[bling]

That is definately a ministry filled with successes and also challenges. My prayers are with you and your men.

You objected to this sentence of mine: "But do you know any Christians who walk in the Spirit all the time and have no need for God's grace to cover their sins?" However, I read your whole post and I didn't find anything in it that conflicted with what I said. Am I missing something?

We all sinned at some time, but do we have the power to not sin again? It would not be us "not sinning", but us allowing the Spirit within us to do what He can do through us.
We underestimate the power of the Spirit way too much.
Is it good news to know: "you do not have to sin again" or does that put an unbearable burden on you?
You can express the same result by saying: "you can allow the Spirit to participate 24/7 in doing good stuff". There were tons of good trees to eat from in the Garden and only one bad one, the Spirit will eat with you from all those good trees.
God is not only gracious in forgiving our sins, but He graciously provides a way for us to not sin again, but again that is not the objective, being obedient out of our Love for God and others is our objective, sin gets in the way. If you are doing good stuff all the time you do not have time to do bad stuff, that has been my experience.

 

[Fervent]

I agree with this, but my view is likely more strict than yours. Do you subscribe to the "habitual" theory of righteousness under which a little sin is tolerated if it is accompanied by the right elements (e.g., repentance, confession, etc.) and if it is not habitually practiced? Or do you believe complete sinlessness in the new man is required? Let's use these verses from 1 John 3 as the basis for the discussion:

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:4–9)​

If we were to be justified by the law it could tolerate no sin whatsoever, habitual or even a sin done in ignorance/by accident. But that doesn't mean the law is jettisoned when we accept Christ, otherwise Paul's words I quoted in Galatians 6 wouldn't make sense since there can be no transgression without there being a law to transgress. What changes is our relationship to the law, since it no longer functions either as a means of justification or a means of condemnation. Our relationship with the law is now one of privilege, we are able to enjoy it for the gift that it is because it comes from God's goodness. It should be the desire of every Christian to practice what the law commands, and the striving is to do so by our new nature rather than contrary to it as in our fallen nature. While we wait for Christ's return, this is a battle because while we have inherited a new spiritual nature our flesh is still fallen and prone to desires that are contrary to our new nature. So while returning to the law according to the flesh is adultery to Christ, the law is still with us to be practiced according to the Spirit.

 

[trophy33]

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT and the authors of the NT did this thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed with it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative. The Psalms in particular are by far the most quoted OT book in the NT. It should not make sense to you to think the teaching of the NT were contrary to what its authors quoted as Scripture. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul taught against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so according to that precendee, agreement with the OT is the standard by which we should accept the truth of what is said in the NT.


Indeed, the immediate context is the letter to Galatia, though what other things Paul said on the same topic are within the broader context.

Jesus did not come with the message to stop repenting because the law has ended now that he has come, but just the opposite. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. This Gospel message in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the same Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he taught to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).


Likewise, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).


In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Jesus is the goal of the law, and that is contrary to saying that the law ended with the coming of Jesus. The law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know him, not so that we can reject his Gospel and go back to living in sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:16-19, a newer covenant does not nullify the promise of an older covenant that has already been ratified, and freeing us from the law would nullify the promise in connection with the law. In addition, Galatians 3:26-29 every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, children of Abraham, and heirs of the promise is directly connected with living in obedience to God's law. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him. In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that, and because they did that.

I do not like dozens of topics and claims in one post, so I will reply just to the first one:

1. Yes, the New Testament quotes and alludes to the Old Testament, because the Old Testament prophesied about the kingdom of God in Jesus Christ. The Old testament is referenced to support/prove Christianity. I do not believe its 1/3 of NT verses, though.

2. However, the Old testament cannot be used as authoritative regarding how we should live in the kingdom of God. Everything is made new:

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done.
Rev 21:5-6

 

[eleos1954]

Hmmm... "you are not under the law, but under grace". (Ro 6:14)

Yea, that's a tough point of view to maintain. Certainly, if we walk in the Spirit we will not gratify the lusts of the flesh. But do you know any Christians who walk in the Spirit all the time and have no need for God's grace to cover their sins?

Yes, the law confines everyone under sin in order that "the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." (Ga 3:22)

No one keeps the law. Everyone needs the forgiveness of sins that His grace provides (Eph 1:7)

Yes, "Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Ga 3:24–25) We are no longer under the tutor.

Well, for us, it has been replaced by a better paradigm, as Paul so elequently stated in his letter to the Romans:

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. (Ro 7:4–6)​

so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit

may be married (conditional)
we should serve in the newness of the Spirit (not that we do)

We do indeed sin (transgression of the law) but when we repent we received forgiveness ... this is the grace of God ... leading us to repentance.

Without the law we do not know what sin is .... if we don't know what sin (transgression of the law) is then there is no way of knowing that we need to repent .... repenting is turning away from sin (transgression of the law)

The Holy Spirit works in the lives of Christians, but they all share one common goal: to make us more like Jesus Christ. He works in believers by renewing our minds to be like the mind of Christ. He does this by convicting us of sin (transgression of the law)
and leading us to repentance.

In Acts 2:38 St. Peter says – Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

It is through being led to repentance by the Holy Spirit (walking in the Spirit) that we may receive forgiveness.

There is nothing wrong with God's law and the law is alive and well. If we are in Christ .... we will be judged by the law but will not be condemned for eternity by it ... we will be pardoned because of what Jesus did.

Christ's death did not get rid of or replace the law .... He fulfilled the law and imputes His righteousness unto us.

Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified; imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification

Sanctification is ongoing throughout our earthly lives .... it is the power of the Holy Spirit working in the person.

To sanctify an object means to wash, cleanse, consecrate or set it aside for a special purpose. Sanctification is a Christian teaching about how God transforms a person, making them fit for a holy purpose. Sanctification includes a change of heart, a desire to love God and other people.

Keeping the law is not legalism ... when we are able to overcome our sin (transgression of the law) it is evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in our lives.

Was Jesus a legalist because He kept the Law? .... no .... He kept it out of love ... the same as we should do.

Actually the law when kept perfectly (of which we can not do without Christ) nor can we do perfectly .... they are laws that produce love. If kept perfectly they produce perfect love (only Christ did this)

Jesus says: “If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24.

God's love/law is alive and well. AMEN!

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

We all sinned at some time, but do we have the power to not sin again?

We have been made new creatures in Christ, one with Him, created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. The devil is not able to draw the new man away from God to sin. Period. But we still drag around the corrupt flesh which is not redeemed, is still depraved, and never ceases to lust for sin. As a result, we fight a spiritual battle daily. The new man, guided by the Spirit lusts in one direction, the flesh in the other. If we walk in the Spirit, we do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

I count the the lusts of the flesh as my own lusts and I see my choices to gratify those desires as coming from the flesh. And I consider the sins and sinfulness of my flesh to be forgiven. Said another way, God will never condemn me because of the lawlessness of my flesh because I am not under law, but under grace. My sins and my sinfulness have been completely taken care of by Jesus' sacrifice for me.

It would not be us "not sinning", but us allowing the Spirit within us to do what He can do through us.
We underestimate the power of the Spirit way too much.
Is it good news to know: "you do not have to sin again" or does that put an unbearable burden on you?

Obeying the law is not a burden because I am not under the law. But if my objective was to obey the law, it would indeed be a curse (Ga 3:10).

You can express the same result by saying: "you can allow the Spirit to participate 24/7 in doing good stuff". There were tons of good trees to eat from in the Garden and only one bad one, the Spirit will eat with you from all those good trees.

I would say this in a way that puts the Spirit in the lead: The Spirit will lead you to eat from the good trees.

God is not only gracious in forgiving our sins, but He graciously provides a way for us to not sin again,

All our sins and sinfulness is forgiven. If we don't want to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh, then all we have to do is walk in lock step with the Spirit. Said another way, we can put off the old man with all his corruption and we can put on the new man and live out his righteous and holy life (Eph 4:20-24).

but again that is not the objective, being obedient out of our Love for God and others is our objective, sin gets in the way. If you are doing good stuff all the time you do not have time to do bad stuff, that has been my experience.

Yes, walking in lock step with the Spirit as He leads, guides, and directs us from the intimacy of our own hearts is the key to living a succesful Christian life.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

If we were to be justified by the law it could tolerate no sin whatsoever, habitual or even a sin done in ignorance/by accident. But that doesn't mean the law is jettisoned when we accept Christ, otherwise Paul's words I quoted in Galatians 6 wouldn't make sense since there can be no transgression without there being a law to transgress.

Is this what you're talking about? "Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." (Ga 6:1)

Definition of "trespass" -- 88.297 παράπτωμα, τος n: what a person has done in transgressing the will and law of God by some false step or failure—‘transgression, sin.’ [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996)]​

Let's take "heresies", one of the works of the flesh, as an example of a trespass.

Definition of "heresy" -- 33.241 αἵρεσιςb, εως f: the content of teaching which is not true—‘false teaching, untrue doctrine, heresy.’ [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996)​

It is interesting to me that Paul included this in his list because that is what he was fighting against inhis letter to the Galatians. Heresies are bad. They are transgressing the will of God. They also have negative consequences on the believer. Right and wrong, good and evil don't change when we are saved, but a Christian is not condemned when he believes in false doctine (like legalism) because he is not under law, but under grace.

However, when we perceive that our brethren have been bewitched into turning from the grace of our Lord to legalism, we need to try to help them out of it. But we should only do it if we have a mature spiritual relationship with the Lord because legalism is an attractive false doctrine to the flesh and we are not above being tempted.

What changes is our relationship to the law, since it no longer functions either as a means of justification or a means of condemnation. Our relationship with the law is now one of privilege, we are able to enjoy it for the gift that it is because it comes from God's goodness.

I agree with this.

It should be the desire of every Christian to practice what the law commands, and the striving is to do so by our new nature rather than contrary to it as in our fallen nature.

I would reword this to convey the sense of completion: "Every true Christian delights in the law of God in the inward man (Ro 7:22) and finds fulfilment of it's requirements in his new nature".

While we wait for Christ's return, this is a battle because while we have inherited a new spiritual nature our flesh is still fallen and prone to desires that are contrary to our new nature. So while returning to the law according to the flesh is adultery to Christ, the law is still with us to be practiced according to the Spirit.

I mostly agree with this. I only take exception to the underlined part. The law is not our guide, the Spirit is our guide. He directs our paths. When we contemplate walking cantrary to His desires, he warns us. If we don't listen, He convicts us and gives us grief until we return to Him. Like a good earthly father would, He neverleaves us alone when we go astray, but He corrects everyone He loves. We never have to worry that one day we will wake up a million miles away from Him.

I actually think our theology is very similar.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

may be married (conditional)
we should serve in the newness of the Spirit (not that we do)

You don't see Romans 7:4-6 as pointing to a new way of life free from the condemnation of the law and empowered by the Spirit of God to serve Him in a new way?

We do indeed sin (transgression of the law) but when we repent we received forgiveness ... this is the grace of God ... leading us to repentance.

Yes, our heavenly Father corrects us whenever we walk in the flesh. But our sins and sinfulness are forgiven before we repent because we are not under law but under grace.

Without the law we do not know what sin is .... if we don't know what sin (transgression of the law) is then there is no way of knowing that we need to repent .... repenting is turning away from sin (transgression of the law)

The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ. But after Christ has come into our hearts, we no longer need the tutor. He is in our hearts now convicting us of sin.

The Holy Spirit works in the lives of Christians, but they all share one common goal: to make us more like Jesus Christ.

Who is "they"? Also, progressive sanctification is a false doctrine. Christ's sanctification of us puts us 100% on His team. Our self-sanctification is to live out the new life He has given us in Christ, and to not live out the lusts of the flesh. There is no possibility that the sinfulness of the flesh will change to be more like Jesus over time.

He works in believers by renewing our minds to be like the mind of Christ. He does this by convicting us of sin (transgression of the law)
and leading us to repentance.

I agree these are functions of the Spirit.

In Acts 2:38 St. Peter says – Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

This is talking about salvation, not Christian living.

It is through being led to repentance by the Holy Spirit (walking in the Spirit) that we may receive forgiveness.

Yes, walking in the Spirit can produce repentance. No, walking in the Spirit does not result in forgiveness.

There is nothing wrong with God's law and the law is alive and well. If we are in Christ .... we will be judged by the law but will not be condemned for eternity by it ... we will be pardoned because of what Jesus did.

I agree with this. But it looks like you agree with me that we are not under law but under grace.

Christ's death did not get rid of or replace the law .... He fulfilled the law and imputes His righteousness unto us.

His sacrifice wrought our forgiveness. His resurrection wrought our righteousness. It is not just imputed, it is true righteousness and holiness we obtained when He made us new by coming to live in our hearts.

Imputed righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus credited to the Christian, enabling the Christian to be justified; imparted righteousness is what God does in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit after justification, working in the Christian to enable and empower the process of sanctification

Sanctification is ongoing throughout our earthly lives .... it is the power of the Holy Spirit working in the person.

The righteousness that is imparted to us does not improve over time. Otherwise, we would need to conflate the new man with the old man and make them one.

To sanctify an object means to wash, cleanse, consecrate or set it aside for a special purpose. Sanctification is a Christian teaching about how God transforms a person, making them fit for a holy purpose. Sanctification includes a change of heart, a desire to love God and other people.

True, the root word for "sanctification" is "holy". "Sanctification" means "holy-fication". He makes us holy when He comes to live in our heart. He doesn't change the flesh (the old man) and make it holy. He creates a new man that is truly righteous and holy (Eph 4:24). The new man has no need for additional holy-fication because he is already truly righteous and holy.

Keeping the law is not legalism ... when we are able to overcome our sin (transgression of the law) it is evidence that the Holy Spirit is working in our lives.

Placing oneself under the law is legalism. Jesus set us free from the law through His forgiveness and gave us His righteousness in the new man. Placing oneself under the law tries to rebuild what He destroyed.

Was Jesus a legalist because He kept the Law? .... no .... He kept it out of love ... the same as we should do.

I would reword the last part to reflect certainty... "Jesus kept the law because He is one with it, the same as we are in the new man."

Actually the law when kept perfectly (of which we can not do without Christ) nor can we do perfectly .... they are laws that produce love. If kept perfectly they produce perfect love (only Christ did this)

OK, I agree. Sometimes we walk in the Spirit, and sometimes we don't.

Jesus says: “If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24.

If we apply this to the old man (or to the whole person if we don't accept the old man/new man paradigm) the question becomes, "How often am I allowed to not keep His commandments and still be considered to be one who loves Him?" The answer, of course, is "disobedience is not allowed". The only fulfilment of these requirements are found in the new man. It is in the new man that we completely and forever love God and the things of God.

God's love/law is alive and well. AMEN!

 

[Soyeong]

I do not like dozens of topics and claims in one post, so I will reply just to the first one:

1. Yes, the New Testament quotes and alludes to the Old Testament, because the Old Testament prophesied about the kingdom of God in Jesus Christ. The Old testament is referenced to support/prove Christianity. I do not believe its 1/3 of NT verses, though.

This is where I got the number of about 1/3:

Naturally, there is going to be some dispute over whether something is a quote and even more dispute over whether something is an allusion, and people have given different numbers, though the point is that a large portion of the verses in NT contains quotes or allusion, and this is not just in regard to prophecy. For example, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed its authority. The NT authors clearly used the OT as an authoritative source to support what they were saying and I see nothing that spoke against the authority of God's word. Again, in Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so he did not say anything against what was said in the OT. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction, and in 15:18-19, he fulfilled the Gospel by bringing Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed.

2. However, the Old testament cannot be used as authoritative regarding how we should live in the kingdom of God. Everything is made new:


He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
He said to me: “It is done.
Rev 21:5-6

The is referring to God making a new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21:1), not to God negating His word. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so that is the way to live in the Kingdom of God. Likewise, the Father has straightforwardly made His will known through what He has commanded in His law, and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of God in contrast with saying that he will tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

 

[bling]

We have been made new creatures in Christ, one with Him, created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. The devil is not able to draw the new man away from God to sin. Period. But we still drag around the corrupt flesh which is not redeemed, is still depraved, and never ceases to lust for sin. As a result, we fight a spiritual battle daily. The new man, guided by the Spirit lusts in one direction, the flesh in the other. If we walk in the Spirit, we do not fulfil the lusts of the flesh.

I count the the lusts of the flesh as my own lusts and I see my choices to gratify those desires as coming from the flesh. And I consider the sins and sinfulness of my flesh to be forgiven. Said another way, God will never condemn me because of the lawlessness of my flesh because I am not under law, but under grace. My sins and my sinfulness have been completely taken care of by Jesus' sacrifice for me.

I am not asking about your sins being forgiven, but not sinning again. A yes or no answer would have been fine.

How can you say: “my sinfulness have been completely taken care of by Jesus' sacrifice” when you still sin or do you see two people at war living in your life? If you crucified your old self how can he still be around?

Obeying the law is not a burden because I am not under the law. But if my objective was to obey the law, it would indeed be a curse (Ga 3:10).

The “Old Law” was given as commands, so do Christians have commands (Law) to follow?

I would say this in a way that puts the Spirit in the lead: The Spirit will lead you to eat from the good trees.

All our sins and sinfulness is forgiven. If we don't want to gratify the sinful desires of the flesh, then all we have to do is walk in lock step with the Spirit. Said another way, we can put off the old man with all his corruption and we can put on the new man and live out his righteous and holy life (Eph 4:20-24).

Instead of having us do something, “walk in lock step”, could we just allow the Spirit to do stuff through us?

Yes, walking in lock step with the Spirit as He leads, guides, and directs us from the intimacy of our own hearts is the key to living a succesful Christian life.

So, if you are not walking in lock step with the Spirit, your life is unsuccessful? How are you measuring success?

 

[fhansen]

Paul fills Galatians with statements of amazement concerning the Galatian Christians who had turned away from grace and had adopted a legalistic approach to Christian living.

Chapter 1: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ." (Ga 1:6–7)

Chapter 2: "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." (Ga 2:21)

Chapter 3: "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?" (Ga 3:1)

Chapter 4: "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" (Ga 4:21)

Chapter 5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Ga 5:4)

And in chapter 6, he makes this telling statement: "For not even those who are circumcised keep the law". (Ga 6:13)

It is truly baffling when Christians set aside the grace of God and place themselves under the law.

What's even more amazing is when people conceive of grace as a carte blanc reprieve from man's obligation to be and live righteously

 

[BobRyan]

Paul fills Galatians with statements of amazement concerning the Galatian Christians who had turned away from grace and had adopted a legalistic approach to Christian living.

Chapter 1: "I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ." (Ga 1:6–7)

Chapter 2: "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." (Ga 2:21)

Chapter 3: "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?" (Ga 3:1)

Chapter 4: "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" (Ga 4:21)

Chapter 5: "You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Ga 5:4)

And in chapter 6, he makes this telling statement: "For not even those who are circumcised keep the law". (Ga 6:13)

It is truly baffling when Christians set aside the grace of God and place themselves under the law.

One has to follow the details very carefully in places Gal 4 to keep from condemning Paul in 1 Cor 7:19 and Rom 3:31

Rom 3:19-20 "under the Law" is defined as "under the Law apart from faith" and so "all mankind condemned"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rom 3:31 "What then? do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? On the contrary we establish the LAW of God"
Rom 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all mankind through Christ"

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I am not asking about your sins being forgiven, but not sinning again. A yes or no answer would have been fine.

I can't remember the question.

How can you say: “my sinfulness have been completely taken care of by Jesus' sacrifice” when you still sin

I am saying that all my sins and even my sinfulness is forgiven because all my iniquities were laid on Him. That's how it has been taken care of.

or do you see two people at war living in your life?

Not exactly. That sounds like 3 people: flesh, spirit, and me. I see myself as alive to God in spirit by means of spiritual birth so that my life is hidden with Christ in God (see Romans 6, John 3, Colossians 3 for Scriptural support). That's who I am and where I live. But there's also no denying that the sinfulness I inherited from Adam (by way of physical conception and birth) still exists. Just as it says in Galatians 5, the only way to not fulfil the lusts of our flesh is to walk in lock step with the Spirit.

If you crucified your old self how can he still be around?

Simply put, we lived in the flesh before we were saved (Romans 7:5), and now we live in the Spirit. We were slaves of sin, now we're slave of righteousness.

It seems as though you dissagree with this. If so, I'll throw your question back to you. If the old self is crucified, where do the sins of those who are alive in Christ come from?

The “Old Law” was given as commands, so do Christians have commands (Law) to follow?

We are not under law, but under grace. But liberty should not be used as a means to gratify the flesh. We need to know that the only way to deny the flesh what it wants is to walk in the Spirit. That's not a law, it's a fact.

Instead of having us do something, “walk in lock step”, could we just allow the Spirit to do stuff through us?

Well, Jesus said He didn't do or say anything unless He saw it or heard it first from the Father. And He said if we followed His example we would indeed be His disciples. I think we should all aspire to walking where He leads.

So, if you are not walking in lock step with the Spirit, your life is unsuccessful?

Correct! The only way to live a succesful Christian life is to walk as Jesus leads.

How are you measuring success?

Good question. I leave that up to the Lord. If He wants to me to do something or change something I'm doing (like the answer to this question that I've typed and changed several times), I trust He will let me know (because He is a good Father and corrects everyone He loves).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

What's even more amazing is when people conceive of grace as a carte blanc reprieve from man's obligation to be and live righteously

Yes, you have put your finger on the issue.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

One has to follow the details very carefully in places Gal 4 to keep from condemning Paul in 1 Cor 7:19 and Rom 3:31

Rom 3:19-20 "under the Law" is defined as "under the Law apart from faith" and so "all mankind condemned"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rom 3:31 "What then? do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? On the contrary we establish the LAW of God"
Rom 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all mankind through Christ"

There are issues with your interpretation of these verses.

For instance, Romans 2:13-16 only presents a hypothetical path to justification through obedience to the law that no person except Christ has ever or will ever achieve. How do I know? Romans 3:20 -- "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin" and Galatians 2:16 -- "for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified" and Galatians 3:11 -- "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith'."

The problem with seeking rightness with God through obedience to the law is that the law requires perfect obedience without failure (Galatians 3:10; Deuteronomy 27:26). Otherwise there is condemnation.

Those who say rightness with God is through obedience to the law must address the law's requirement of perfect obedience. If they say perfect obedience is not required, then they must explain how rightness with God is through obeying the law if obeying the law is not required.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, you have put your finger on the issue.

But it's also reassuring for me to know that the church never taught anything like that for 15 centuries.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But it's also reassuring for me to know that the church never taught anything like that for 15 centuries.

Like I said on another thread, how we got here is not as important as where we've landed.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:19-20 "under the Law" is defined as "under the Law apart from faith" and so "all mankind condemned"

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
Rom 3:31 "What then? do we make void the LAW of God by our faith? On the contrary we establish the LAW of God"
Rom 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all mankind through Christ"

There are issues with your interpretation of these verses.

Actually what you find there is the mere quote of the verses. Do you find it problematic to have the verses quoted?

If so it may indicate that you are taking some other statements of Paul to an extreme point of inference that will not fit with the mere quote of these texts.

For instance, Romans 2:13-16 only presents a hypothetical path to justification through obedience to the law

Not true.

Rather Rom 2 is talking about the Gospel and the future day of judgment.

Rom 2:13-16 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God - but the DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED... on the day when according to my Gospel God will judge all mankind through Christ"

So in Rom 2:13 -16 the context is "justification future" on that future day when according to the Gospel God will judge.
Rom 2:4-16 shows both the FAILING cases AND it also shows the succeeding cases. It can't be re-imagined to just have failing cases.
Matt 7 where we find the "rule of Christ" - is consistent with Rom 2:4-16 "by their fruits you shall know them.
James 2 has the same "justified by works and not by faith alone" context for justification.

By contrast in Rom 5:1-3 we have "justification past"... "having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God" - this is not a corporate judgment event form of justification. This is an individual event - in each person's life time a real event where they accept the Gospel and are justified.

So it is important not to conflate these two distinct contexts for the term "justification" that we find in the Bible.

that no person except Christ has ever or will ever achieve.

That is true for justification without the Gospel . Without faith in Christ. But in the context of "The Gospel" there is indeed the rule of Christ in Matt 7 which is the same as the Justification context in Rom 2:4-16 and also James 2.

How do I know? Romans 3:20 -- "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin" and Galatians 2:16 -- "for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified" and Galatians 3:11 -- "But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for 'the just shall live by faith'."

Indeed that is the the "justifcation past" context as we find it in Rom 5:1-2 and it refers to the point at which one is born-again. The lost person that accepts the Gospel

Those who say rightness with God is through obedience to the law must address the law's requirement of perfect obedience.

True. That is the context of "a lost person" is that all have sinned, all are lost and all need the Gospel since no one can be justified without it.

But the Matt 7, and Rom 2 and James 2 context is for the born-again believer under the New Covenant and uses the rule of Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"

 

[fhansen]

Like I said on another thread, how we got here is not as important as where we've landed.

Yes, but it seems we've landed in many different areas.