Lack of finances=lack of faith?

[Andrew]

quote: "The type of god described in OTÊseems to have almost similar intelligence and emotions to humans, in essence he is just a big daddy in the sky. Thats why I don't like to discuss OT."

You dont seem to acknowledge the truth of the whole Bible or recognise that God in the OT is the same God in the NT so I'm just gonna quit discussing with you cos i think you belong to some weird 1/2-Bible sect of christianity.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "The type of god described in OTÊseems to have almost similar intelligence and emotions to humans, in essence he is just a big daddy in the sky. Thats why I don't like to discuss OT."

You dont seem to acknowledge the truth of the whole Bible or recognise that God in the OT is the same God in the NT so I'm just gonna quit discussing with you cos i think you belong to some weird 1/2-Bible sect of christianity.

 

Unless you want to say god has evolved to become God, which is impossible. By God I mean One with infinite virtues, infinite intelligence and infinite power. The god in OT is just like a human being and is limited. And so why do want to go back and worship a limited god rather than God? The new testament came after the old testament so why do want to go a step back in evolution?

As for me I believe God not god has been the same since the creation of the universe. 

Christianity is not bible, and hence don't cheat yourself.

 

[SnuP]

Luke 16
1And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. 2And he called him, and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? give an account of thy stewardship; for thou mayest be no longer steward. 3Then the steward said within himself, What shall I do? for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship: I cannot dig; to beg I am ashamed. 4I am resolved what to do, that, when I am put out of the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses. 5So he called every one of his lord’s debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord? 6And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty. 7Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore. 8And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. 9And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. 10He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. 11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? 12And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man’s, who shall give you that which is your own?

 

11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

So you must be faithful with money in order to get your rewards in heaven, so money has a part in the gospel.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

Unless you want to say god has evolved to become God, which is impossible. By God I mean One with infinite virtues, infinite intelligence and infinite power. The god in OT is just like a human being and is limited. And so why do want to go back and worship a limited god rather than God? The new testament came after the old testament so why do want to go a step back in evolution?

As for me I believe God not god has been the same since the creation of the universe. 

Christianity is not bible, and hence don't cheat yourself.

For a scientist you show a lack of reserce and a lot of assuming.  You seem to deem the old testiment as just stories.  But it is historically accurate.  The God of Isaih, Daniel, and Moses was not human like at all, rather He was an exalted being of unlimited power and judgement.  Maybe you need to reread the OT.

 

[SnuP]

Matt. 10:
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

True faith relies on God's provision rather then money, but when we have money we need to deal with ti shrewdly, and with carefull consideration of God's will.  God can use money to provide His provision, but not always.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Luke 16 


 

11If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

So you must be faithful with money in order to get your rewards in heaven, so money has a part in the gospel.

 

The key word here is stealing. You should not steal from another. You are badly mistaken if you think you can find a verse in the Gospels where Jesus commends riches. If you want to understand Jesus parables think about the kingdom of God and righteousness, not rewards of the world.

You should have continue to read on to get a clear meaning

 12  And if you have not been faithful in that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? 
 13  No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." 
 14  The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they scoffed at him. 
 15  But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
For a scientist you show a lack of reserce and a lot of assuming.  You seem to deem the old testiment as just stories.  But it is historically accurate.  The God of Isaih, Daniel, and Moses was not human like at all, rather He was an exalted being of unlimited power and judgement.  Maybe you need to reread the OT.

 

I am not going to reread the OT. You need to do so yourself. I have not said they are mere stories there is a degree of truth in them, but some like Genesis Chapter 1 about creation and Adam and Eve are mere stories.

Do you know the meaning of infinity?

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Matt. 10:
7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

True faith relies on God's provision rather then money, but when we have money we need to deal with ti shrewdly, and with carefull consideration of God's will.  God can use money to provide His provision, but not always.

Your question is answered by what you quoted

freely ye have received, freely give.

You are required to give freely what you receive freely such that at no point you will ever call yourself rich while poverty is still rampant all over the world. Otherwise it will mean you have no compassion for a poor person dying of hunger.

 

 

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

The key word here is stealing. You should not steal from another. You are badly mistaken if you think you can find a verse in the Gospels where Jesus commends riches. If you want to understand Jesus parables think about the kingdom of God and righteousness, not rewards of the world.

You should have continue to read on to get a clear meaning

 12  And if you have not been faithful in that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? 
 13  No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." 
 14  The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they scoffed at him. 
 15  But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 

We as christians are told not to serve mammon, but rather to use it wisely.  Jesus Himself wore expensive clothing, used expensive perfume, and had a treasure to handle the finances.  The bad steward was comended for using the money wisely for His own bennifit.  Jesus never rebuke anyone for having money or using it, rather He rebuked those who loved it, who allowed it to become more important then loved ones and God.  Thus the promise that if you seek first the kingdom of God first then all of these things will be add to you.  What things.  Good looking clothes, plentiful food, shelter, and anything that you ask in the name of Jesus.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
We as christians are told not to serve mammon, but rather to use it wisely.  Jesus Himself wore expensive clothing, used expensive perfume, and had a treasure to handle the finances.  The bad steward was comended for using the money wisely for His own bennifit.  Jesus never rebuke anyone for having money or using it, rather He rebuked those who loved it, who allowed it to become more important then loved ones and God.  Thus the promise that if you seek first the kingdom of God first then all of these things will be add to you.  What things.  Good looking clothes, plentiful food, shelter, and anything that you ask in the name of Jesus.

Are you saying Jesus came here to teach accounts? Clearly there is something wrong with this type of logic. 

Accumulating wealth is serving mammon. You only need the basic necessity to sustain life so that it doesn't intefere with your spiritual life. Where did you read that Jesus wore expensive clothing?

 

Look at this three verses from the parable and you will know its not about accounts


8  The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. 

11  If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches? 

15  But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by SnuP
We as christians are told not to serve mammon, but rather to use it wisely.  Jesus Himself wore expensive clothing, used expensive perfume, and had a treasure to handle the finances. 

Where does it say in scripture that He wore expensive clothing and used expensive perfume?

The bad steward was comended for using the money wisely for His own bennifit.  Jesus never rebuke anyone for having money or using it, rather He rebuked those who loved it, who allowed it to become more important then loved ones and God.  Thus the promise that if you seek first the kingdom of God first then all of these things will be add to you.  What things.  Good looking clothes, plentiful food, shelter, and anything that you ask in the name of Jesus. [/B]

Where does it say that "Good looking clothes, plentiful food, shelter, and anything that you ask in the name of Jesus" will be given unto you?  The passage you are quoting is about not worrying about things like money and clothing and stuff of that nature. It does not say that one will have wealth if one just asks.

 

Oh and I voted for the first one that money has nothing to do with one's spirituality aothough it does not completely reflect my view but was the closest.  I believe for some people money is very important in their spiritual life.  Some need to get rid of it because they love it so much. Some don't.  But I would not say that money is not important to ones spiritual life or that it does not affect ones spiritual life.  I think everything affects it. but in a very personal way.  God will tell us what He wants us to do with our money based on the principles He has laid out in the Bible.   

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Where does it say in scripture that He wore expensive clothing and used expensive perfume? 

When Jesus died on the cross, the soldiers cast lots for his garment. They could not divine the material up, sense it was all made from one peice. Those who are a expert on that sort of stuff, say that it is a expense process to make a garment out of one peice of material like that.

Mary, most likely the one who had been a prostitute used a expensive anointment to prepare him for the beating he was going to be taking. It was known for it's perfume odor. What made it expensive was the pure state it was in. It is a mild pain killer that would have numbed his skin so he did not feel as much pain. Even today it would have cost close to $100. That was a lot of money back then.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by JohnR7
When Jesus died on the cross, the soldiers cast lots for his garment. They could not divine the material up, sense it was all made from one peice. Those who are a expert on that sort of stuff, say that it is a expense process to make a garment out of one peice of material like that.

Mary, most likely the one who had been a prostitute used a expensive anointment to prepare him for the beating he was going to be taking. It was known for it's perfume odor. What made it expensive was the pure state it was in. It is a mild pain killer that would have numbed his skin so he did not feel as much pain. Even today it would have cost close to $100. That was a lot of money back then.

I will look up the garment thing.  However does it say that the anoitment was His? I thought it was the prositute's or the house the owner's.  Not Jesus'.  Also if he was rich He would of had His own tomb and not had to use Joseph's. So that is evidence that He was not rich.  He also borrowed much of things that He used during His ministry.  i.e. The loaves and the fishes and the donbkey He rode on at His triumphal entry.   I will look up the garment thing though and get back to you. 

 

[Andrew]

Proverbs 8

Godly wisdom is something God wants us to have. And one of the
things it will do for us is prosper us...

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

notice it says riches AND HONOUR. There is good prosperity and bad prosperity.
we are of cse after the former.

Why would God want a Christian to prosper?
1. Becos he loves us.
2. So that we can finance the spread of the Gospel far and wide (eg printing and distributing Bibles worldwide cost money, sending missionaries cost money etc). Or simply be a blessing to others.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by JohnR7
When Jesus died on the cross, the soldiers cast lots for his garment. They could not divine the material up, sense it was all made from one peice. Those who are a expert on that sort of stuff, say that it is a expense process to make a garment out of one peice of material like that.

Mary, most likely the one who had been a prostitute used a expensive anointment to prepare him for the beating he was going to be taking. It was known for it's perfume odor. What made it expensive was the pure state it was in. It is a mild pain killer that would have numbed his skin so he did not feel as much pain. Even today it would have cost close to $100. That was a lot of money back then.

 

This garment that Christians like quoting to prove Jesus was rich was put by Herod, So it was Herod's garment.

The anointment was Mary's not Jesus. This does not imply Jesus always use expensive perfumes 

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by Andrew
Proverbs 8

Godly wisdom is something God wants us to have. And one of the
things it will do for us is prosper us...

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.

notice it says riches AND HONOUR. There is good prosperity and bad prosperity.
we are of cse after the former.

Why would God want a Christian to prosper?
1. Becos he loves us.
2. So that we can finance the spread of the Gospel far and wide (eg printing and distributing Bibles worldwide cost money, sending missionaries cost money etc). Or simply be a blessing to others.

 

Talk Christianity not Judaism.

If you follow the last statement, then you will discover you will not have time to be rich. Unless you want to be mean with your money

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by SnuP
True faith relies on God's provision rather then money, but when we have money we need to deal with ti shrewdly, 

We sure do not have to worry much about it here in America, as wealthy as we are here in this nations. The problem is in helping our poor brothers and sisters in developing nations. It is a lot more difficult for them to have faith to believe God to provide for them, because they do not see an abundance of prosperity around them like we do here in America.

As Christians and American, we should be way beyond having to worry about our own needs. I know I have most everything I need and even most everything I would want. I spend my time helping those who have not entered into the fullness of the promises to have faith to believe God for their provision.

 

[reAsonX]

I have yet to meet a "holiness by poverty" preacher who actually practiced what he preached. For instance, people with enough money to buy a computer and an Internet account could not be considered "poor." If you truly believe the balderdash you promote, then practice what you preach.... sell your computer, your house, your car, and all your clothes.  Repent of all this evil prosperity! Live in a cardboard box, wear burlap bags, eat wild onions, and drink branch water. Until you do this, you are little better than a hypocrite. You seek to burden others with a false spirituality that you do not even follow yourself! Anyone responding to this is prosperous, and most likely richer than 95% of humanity.
The same goes for the "perfected by sickness" crowd. If you are so sure God wants you sick, why do you go to a doctor in an effort to get well? That is rebellion! Why do you spend all this time and money (money you should not have, seeing as you preach poverty too)trying to get out of the will of God? You should be trying to get sicker. If God wants you sick, be as obedient as you can. Repent of all this sinful healthiness!

Put a little mustard on that baloney...

 

 

 

[reAsonX]

It appears to me that the anti health and anti prosperity folks are more obsessed with "things" that anyone. Some of the most selfish people I have met were living in squalor. Why are you so worried about what other people have? Be content with what you have (or don't have) and leave them alone. Maybe they do have more faith, or are better stewards, and maybe they are eating the good of the land. What do you care? Maybe God is blessing them for their obedience to His word? Maybe they are reaping the fruit of their hard work. Who are you to judge them? You may be judging God in all this!

 

[SnuP]

Romans 11
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”£ ? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”£ 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.£
7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.ӣ
9And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.ӣ
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is£ my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.ӣ
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now£ receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and£ knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?ӣ
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?ӣ
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Here we see the apostle Paul talking about the Isrealites and quoting the old testiment to make his point.  The writers of the Gospel did this many times to prove that Crist was the massiah.  Jesus quoted the old testiment to prove His points one of which was that of His origin.  Paul here is talking about Isreals history and the covenant originally given to Abraham and how that covenant plays out with the New covenant and how they intertwine with the future.

How can you completely throw away the old testiment, when Jesus and the Apostes relied so heavily upon it, and basiscally call it a false religion?  You have no scriptural support for this action and it calls into question your salvation.  Since salvation is a fulfillment of the law through Christ of a religion that you basically caim to be a false one.