Lack of finances=lack of faith?

Is not having money or having little money a sign of weak faith or no faith?

  • No, money has no bearing on who you are as a Christian

  • No, the poorer actually have a deeper faith than the rich

  • Yes, weak faith.

  • If you are a real Christian you cannot be poor.


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SnuP

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Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

Talk Christianity not Judaism.

If you follow the last statement, then you will discover you will not have time to be rich. Unless you want to be mean with your money

Being rich in ministery is not something that you seek after.  It is basically some thing that can just happen to you if you are a good steward.

Have you ever heard of the law of sewing and reaping?

Or how about the parable of the talents (a talent accually is a piece of money)?

Your possition makes no sence in light of scripture.

Christianity is the daughter of Judaism.
 
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LouisBooth

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"because you treat the bible as an idol and don't want to face facts.
"

No, I can show you if you would like.


"Go to the books of Moses and find out how many of the laws that you obey"

So what? like I said Christ clarified them and fufilled them for me, so through him, yes I obey every single one of those laws.


"Every rich person loves wealth"

Not true, I know christians that have money that are very responsible with it as God shows them.


"This is lack of compassion."

Nope, its not. I ask you, do you have a car? If yes, then by your defination you are uncompassionate because you dont' need a car. You could sell it give the money away and ride a bike. You dont' NEED a computer for that matter either. You posting here, according to the words you say, shows you have lack of compassion.

""Next time read the Gospels in detail so that we can have a discussion"

I have. Show me where it says you can't be rich. Hint: You can't.

now, but you saying something like that it shows me your pridefulness and unwillingness to actually discuss the topic and resorting to the "I'm a better christian then you are game". That breeds no love, and is not of God.
 
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Originally posted by SnuP


How can you completely throw away the old testiment, when Jesus and the Apostes relied so heavily upon it, and basiscally call it a false religion?  You have no scriptural support for this action and it calls into question your salvation.  Since salvation is a fulfillment of the law through Christ of a religion that you basically caim to be a false one.

 

The old testament has at least 90% truth so I cannot call it false. There are areas which do not conform with Christ teaching. But if you read the Gospels clealry you will know that you do not need the old testament or a pastor to understand spirituality. Why do you like the old testament? Is it because you can't cope up with Jeus lofty standard? You are undergoing a negative evolution.

When did I say the law is false? Stop making erroneous conlcusions.
 
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Originally posted by SnuP
Being rich in ministery is not something that you seek after.  It is basically some thing that can just happen to you if you are a good steward.

Have you ever heard of the law of sewing and reaping?

Or how about the parable of the talents (a talent accually is a piece of money)?

Your possition makes no sence in light of scripture.

Christianity is the daughter of Judaism.

Wrong. Christianity is the maturity of Judaism.

You dont understand Jesus parables. Never read Jesus parables thinking about worldy rewards. Always think about the Kingdom of God and righteousness so that you can understand them.

Go back and reread the parables and then come back so that we can discuss.
 
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Originally posted by Andrew
"I have yet to meet a "holiness by poverty" preacher who actually practiced what he preached. For instance, people with enough money to buy a computer and an Internet account could not be considered "poor.""

my sentiments exactly! they shld walk the talk n be like John the Baptist!

There is no holiness by poverty. Holiness is a factor of many virtues, poverty being one of them. And don't say I am the one who is saying it, go and read the gospels. Holiness requires one to seek the Kingdomnof God and His righteousness.

You don't follow example of preachers, follow the example of Christ. We should all strive to Christ like, but not give excuses when we are unable or go look for soothing verses in the bible.

 
 
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Originally posted by LouisBooth

So what? like I said Christ clarified them and fufilled them for me, so through him, yes I obey every single one of those laws.


So in essence you don't need to read the laws of Moses. Thats what I have been saying so we don't have an argument here.

Not true, I know christians that have money that are very responsible with it as God shows them.

 

If you are responsible with money does it imply that God is showing you? What do you mean by God showing them. Tell me how does God show one how to use money? Does accumulating 100 million dollars in your account constitute to God showing you. does dringing your mercedes living beggars in the street dying of hunger constitute to God showing you?


Nope, its not. I ask you, do you have a car? If yes, then by your defination you are uncompassionate because you dont' need a car. You could sell it give the money away and ride a bike. You dont' NEED a computer for that matter either. You posting here, according to the words you say, shows you have lack of compassion.

You are not required to follow my example or any one else on earth. Follow the example of Christ.


I have. Show me where it says you can't be rich. Hint: You can't.

Because you want to be told directly. If you read all what I wrote before in this thread you will understand.  First go read luke Chapter 6 beatitudes and then come back we discuss.


now, but you saying something like that it shows me your pridefulness and unwillingness to actually discuss the topic and resorting to the "I'm a better christian then you are game". That breeds no love, and is not of God.

I am willing to discuss the topic. You can see I have been very active in this thread since I started posting. I have not said I am better Christian. Don't make such erroneous conclusions. I am only guiding people in understanding the Gospels.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by Blackhawk
Also if he was rich He would of had His own tomb and not had to use Joseph's. So that is evidence that He was not rich.  He also borrowed much of things that He used during His ministry.  i.e. The loaves and the fishes and the donbkey He rode on at His triumphal entry.   I will look up the garment thing though and get back to you. 

Why would He need His own tomb?  He was not going to stay there.  :)

Why would He need His own donkey?  He was not going to be around to take care of it.

The loaves and the fishes were not His.  They belonged to a little boy.  Jesus merely multiplied it and then afterward they gathered up 12 full baskets of leftovers.  Wonder what they did with those?

And WOF stands for Word Of Faith.  Synopsis: Those who believe that if God says, then He meant it.  And they live by faith that God will accomplish everything He's promised according to His Word.  They believe that every need they have is met according to His Word.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

This garment that Christians like quoting to prove Jesus was rich was put by Herod, So it was Herod's garment.

The anointment was Mary's not Jesus. This does not imply Jesus always use expensive perfumes 

 

Regarding the garment. . .Not so . . .read Matt 27:31

And brother, if you don't like the God of the OT then it's impossible for you to understand the God of the NT.  Their one and the same.

A christian is a christian because they follow Christ.  He was prophesied in the OT and made manifest in the New.

You can't be a real follower of Christ and not accept the OT.  He quoted from it frequently, so, get over it . . :D  
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

The old testament has at least 90% truth so I cannot call it false. There are areas which do not conform with Christ teaching. But if you read the Gospels clealry you will know that you do not need the old testament or a pastor to understand spirituality. Why do you like the old testament? Is it because you can't cope up with Jeus lofty standard? You are undergoing a negative evolution.

When did I say the law is false? Stop making erroneous conlcusions.

You mean your interpretation of Christ's teaching! :D 

I learned a long time ago that when the scripture seems to contradict itself, it's not the scripture that is wrong.  It's me.

Show us where you think the scripture contradicts and one of us will show you where it does not.  :D
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by spiritualscientist
There is no holiness by poverty. Holiness is a factor of many virtues, poverty being one of them. And don't say I am the one who is saying it, go and read the gospels. Holiness requires one to seek the Kingdomnof God and His righteousness.

You don't follow example of preachers, follow the example of Christ. We should all strive to Christ like, but not give excuses when we are unable or go look for soothing verses in the bible.

 

So, how many people have you laid hands on today and healed them?

How many sandwiches have you multiplied and fed a city with?

 
 
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Originally posted by Quaffer
You mean your interpretation of Christ's teaching! :D 

I learned a long time ago that when the scripture seems to contradict itself, it's not the scripture that is wrong.  It's me.

Show us where you think the scripture contradicts and one of us will show you where it does not.  :D

You biblians don't like admitting facts. The bible was written by man so you don't expect it to be error free.

Some of the contradictions are what we are discussing here. In the old testament the righteous were rewarded with wealth but riches are an impediment to spirituality in the new testament.

 

 
 
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Originally posted by Quaffer
 

Regarding the garment. . .Not so . . .read Matt 27:31



Explain why it was not Herods' garment.  


And brother, if you don't like the God of the OT then it's impossible for you to understand the God of the NT.  Their one and the same.

Impossible to you, does not imply the impossibility.

It they are one and the same, then it implies God's character has changed or that he has evolved. So I do not need to go back to His old character.


A christian is a christian because they follow Christ.  He was prophesied in the OT and made manifest in the New.

A Christian follows Christ teaching not the bible.

You can't be a real follower of Christ and not accept the OT.  He quoted from it frequently, so, get over it . . :D  

Says you. Tell me the difference between a Biblian, a Judaist and a Christian.
 
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Blackhawk

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Originally posted by Quaffer
Why would He need His own tomb?  He was not going to stay there.  :)

Why would He need His own donkey?  He was not going to be around to take care of it.

Okay but then why would He need such an expensive garment?  He would not be wearing it for long. 

The loaves and the fishes were not His.  They belonged to a little boy.  Jesus merely multiplied it and then afterward they gathered up 12 full baskets of leftovers.  Wonder what they did with those? [/B]


I am sure they ate them later on.  My point was that they if they were rich they could of fed the people with the money they had but they instead had to borrow a kids lunch. 

  And WOF stands for Word Of Faith.  Synopsis: Those who believe that if God says, then He meant it.  And they live by faith that God will accomplish everything He's promised according to His Word.  They believe that every need they have is met according to His Word. [/B]


Every need is promised to us.  What do we need though?  Do we need riches? no. Do we need the nice house and car? no.  Do we even need three meals a day? no.  We need very little compared to our wants but sometimes we call our wants needs.  I am not saying that having 3 meals a day, the house, the car or the riches are a bad thing but they are just not needs.  They are wants.  WE actually need very little and most of what we need is not material but relational. 
 
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Blackhawk

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Originally posted by Andrew
Proverbs 8

Godly wisdom is something God wants us to have. And one of the
things it will do for us is prosper us...

18 With me are riches and honor,
enduring wealth and prosperity.
19 My fruit is better than fine gold;
what I yield surpasses choice silver.
20 I walk in the way of righteousness,
along the paths of justice,
21 bestowing wealth on those who love me
and making their treasuries full.


notice it says riches AND HONOUR. There is good prosperity and bad prosperity.
we are of cse after the former.

actually Proverbs 8 is speaking about wisdom.  It says that wisdom's fruit is better than gold and silver.  Basically it is better than money or other material possesions.  It is not saying that if you are a Christian then God promoses you that you will be rich.  it is saying that God is promising you something much better.  That wisdom is much better than those things.  When we look at the whole chapter it is clearer.  Here is the whole chapter. 



Prov 8:1-36
CHAPTER 8

1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?
2 On top of the heights beside the way, where the paths meet, she takes her stand;
3 Beside the gates, at the opening to the city, at the entrance of the doors, she cries out:
4 "To you, O men, I call, and my voice is to the sons of men.
5 "O naive ones, understand prudence; and, O fools, understand wisdom.
6 "Listen, for I will speak noble things; and the opening of my lips {will reveal} right things.
7 "For my mouth will utter truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 "All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing crooked or perverted in them.
9 "They are all straightforward to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge.
10 "Take my instruction and not silver, and knowledge rather than choicest gold.
11 "For wisdom is better than jewels; and all desirable things cannot compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge {and} discretion.
13 "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverted mouth, I hate.
14 "Counsel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine.
15 "By me kings reign, and rulers decree justice.
16 "By me princes rule, and nobles, all who judge rightly.
17 "I love those who love me; and those who diligently seek me will find me.
18 "Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and righteousness.
19 "My fruit is better than gold, even pure gold, and my yield {better} than choicest silver.
20 "I walk in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of justice,
21 To endow those who love me with wealth, that I may fill their treasuries.
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.
23 "From everlasting I was established, from the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields, nor the first dust of the world.
27 "When He established the heavens, I was there, when He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above, when the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary so that the water would not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, {as} a master workman; and I was daily {His} delight, rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth, and {having} my delight in the sons of men.
32 "Now therefore, {O} sons, listen to me, for blessed are they who keep my ways.
33 "Heed instruction and be wise, and do not neglect {it.}
34 "Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at my doorposts.
35 "For he who finds me finds life and obtains favor from the LORD.
36 "But he who sins against me injures himself; all those who hate me love death."
(NAU)


Why would God want a Christian to prosper?
1. Becos he loves us.
2. So that we can finance the spread of the Gospel far and wide (eg printing and distributing Bibles worldwide cost money, sending missionaries cost money etc). Or simply be a blessing to others. [/B]


I believe that because He loves us some of us do not have as much material possesions as we want.  And sure God will supply the funds if it is His will for something to be done but that is different than what the WOF says. It says that we will be rich.  Not just that we will have the money to do His will. 
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Did'nt you read it?


Matthew 27
31 And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

If you knew the OT you would know where Jesus quoted from.

I've read the whole Bible and I read the whole Bible.  The Bible is Christ's teaching. 

Like I said, Ask a question regarding your supposed contradiction. . .one of us will answer it.  :D
 
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Originally posted by reAsonX
I have yet to meet a "holiness by poverty" preacher who actually practiced what he preached. For instance, people with enough money to buy a computer and an Internet account could not be considered "poor." If you truly believe the balderdash you promote, then practice what you preach.... sell your computer, your house, your car, and all your clothes.  Repent of all this evil prosperity! Live in a cardboard box, wear burlap bags, eat wild onions, and drink branch water. Until you do this, you are little better than a hypocrite. You seek to burden others with a false spirituality that you do not even follow yourself! Anyone responding to this is prosperous, and most likely richer than 95% of humanity.
The same goes for the "perfected by sickness" crowd. If you are so sure God wants you sick, why do you go to a doctor in an effort to get well? That is rebellion! Why do you spend all this time and money (money you should not have, seeing as you preach poverty too)trying to get out of the will of God? You should be trying to get sicker. If God wants you sick, be as obedient as you can. Repent of all this sinful healthiness!

Put a little mustard on that baloney...

 

 

What about john the Baptist or St. Francis of Assisi?  Or what about the monastics who practised what they preached in a radical way.  Church History is full of mena women who rejected worldly riches for heavenly riches.  Some did it in a constructive way while others went way to far in my opinion.  But clearly there were many who practised what they preached.  Also your view of evangeliclas and others that claim that God uses sickness to help us be more like Him is a gross misrepresentation of their actaul views.  They do not teach that oen should strive to be sick or that sickenss itself is good. What they teach is Romans 8:28.  That God will use everything.  Even the things that seems bad to us for our good.  Your argument there was just a strawman because you completely misrepresented our views. 
 
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