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Lack of finances=lack of faith?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Susan, Sep 16, 2002.

Is not having money or having little money a sign of weak faith or no faith?

  1. No, money has no bearing on who you are as a Christian

  2. No, the poorer actually have a deeper faith than the rich

  3. Yes, weak faith.

  4. If you are a real Christian you cannot be poor.

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  1. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    In this society, everyones needs are different.  They verry with what God has called each of us to.  Just because you may be able to survive on bread and water does not mean everyone else can.  Was'nt it Jesus who said, "man cannot live on bread alone"?
     
  2. Alright my mistake. But this does not prove Jesus lived an expensive lifestyle. There all indications in the bible that Jesus lived a simple life including what he preached. Jesus could not have preached water and drank wine. The soldiers could also have wanted a piece of a famous person ("King of the Jews") clothes as a souvenir not because the clothes were expensive.

     

    There are many contradictions one of them is what we are discussing here about wealth. I don't know why you are repeating the question. I said in the old testament the righteous were rewarded with material wealth which is an impediment to spirituality in the new testament. Once we are through with this discussion I will show you other contraditions.

    But are you trying to say the Bible is error free?

     
     
  3.  

    You forgot Jesus came to preach spirituality and not how to profit yourself in this world.
     
  4. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    US-Republican
     



    Sure but He did not need an expensive garment.  To bring it to today we only need to get clothes from a thrift store or Kmart but we want to get them from Nordstroms or Neiman Marcus.  But my point in saying that was that everything that He owned was only transitory.  He used things for awhile and then did not need them any longer.  Just like us.  I have clothes that I wear but I only wear them for a ceratain amount of time then I get rid of them. 



    John 6:5-9
    5 Therefore Jesus, lifting up His eyes and seeing that a large crowd was coming to Him, said to Philip, "Where are we to buy bread, so that these may eat?"
    6 This He was saying to test him, for He Himself knew what He was intending to do.
    7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, for everyone to receive a little."
    8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
    9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are these for so many people?"
    (NAU)

    Jesus asked if they should go out and buy them food to test His disciple's faith.  Phillip answered by saying that not even a ton of money that they clearly did not have would be able to buy them all even a little of food.  If it happened today Phillip might of said "Not even a miilion $ worth of food is sufficent" But the point clearly is that Phillip was saying to Jesus that eve nthis huge amount of money that we would never have is enough for all these people.  Jesus had other ideas on how He was going to feed them. 

    No that is a cop out.  No one NEEDS to have a BMW.  No one needs to have a huge mansion.  no one needs to have more money than they can ever spend.  We only need a certain amount of food to survive.  Also you only quoted part of the scriptureabout living on "Bread alone." Let's read the rest of it. 


    Matt 4:3-4
    3 And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread."
    4 But He answered and said, "It is written, "MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD."'
    (NAU)

    I think that it is pretty self explanatory that you have used the scripture out of context. 

    And what about this time when Jesus sent out Hid disciples?  Notice they did not take any riches or much material possesions at all. 


    Mark 6:7-12
    7 And He summoned the twelve and began to send them out in pairs, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits;
    8 and He instructed them that they should take nothing for {their} journey, except a mere staff-- no bread, no bag, no money in their belt--
    9 but {to} wear sandals; and {He added}  "Do not put on two tunics."
    10 And He said to them, "Wherever you enter a house, stay there until you leave town.
    11 "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."
    12 They went out and preached that {men} should repent.
    (NAU)

     
     
  5. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    I'm saying the Bible does not contradict itself.  If you believe it does, it's because you lack understaning on the subject.  Like I said, if I come upon something that looks like it's contractory, it's not the Bible that's wrong.  I need to seek the Holy Spirit for the understanding so that I am balanced.
     
  6. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

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    Jesus came to preach The Kingdom of Heaven.  That is definately a profit to this world. 
     
  7. Singing all the time the bible does not contradict itself without answering my question is meaningless.

     
     
  8. Of course you know that I meant profiting materially.

     
     
  9. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
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  10. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
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    I don't sing the Bible, I sing Jesus. Who do you sing?
     
  11. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
    United States
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  12. At least we are agreeing here

    They were 12 so you expect them to have a way of budgeting their money. Having a treasurer does not mean they were rich. Thats why they were having a problem feeding the 5000 people. If they were rich the bible could have at least said so and indicate their source of revenue. Since they were moslty spreading the gospel they did not have much time to make money.  

    Remember in true spirituality there is no business going to work. It is called "Seek first the Kingdom of God". But we have little faith and thats why we go to work. Spirituality is the opposite of the physical.

    You don't sell souvenirs, you keep them

    Explain why I am incorrect

    Alright explain this error

    Mathew 22
     35  And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, to test him. 
     36  "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 
     37  And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 


    Luke 10
    25  And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 
     26  He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?" 
     27  And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 
     28  And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

     
    In Mathew it is Jesus who answered the question while in Luke it was the lawyer
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "So in essence you don't need to read the laws of Moses. Thats what I have been saying so we don't have an argument here. "

    I totally disagree, the law now serves as a guide, not to be strictly adhered to or die, but as an instruction manual on how to live.

    "does dringing your mercedes living beggars in the street dying of hunger constitute to God showing you? "

    Sorry those living on the streets I have encountered so far 1. DON'T want a job, 2. DON'T want to work or do anything 3. Use it for drugs/alcohol.

    I usually offer food to them which I am called to do...meeting their needs. I also tell them that my church would probably pay them to do work, which they always refuse. I have also been refused when I offer to take them to lunch. The problem is most 'beggers' no-adays see that as their job, not a one time thing.

    "Follow the example of Christ. "

    I do, but if you come on here claiming one thing and live another without struggling, I'd say there is a problem with either the teaching or you. I'd personally say its the teaching.

    "First go read luke Chapter 6 beatitudes and then come back we discuss. "

    Done, it says NOTHING about money at all.

    "I am only guiding people in understanding the Gospels."

    I would humbly disagree. so far you have said to me 1. you don't understand so go read the bible, and this was on your FIRST post to me, so you dont' know me from Adam and 2. You say you are teaching the gospels but cannot provide scripture to back up to say its wrong to have money.
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    "No that is a cop out.Ê No oneÊNEEDS to have a BMW.Ê No one needs to have a huge mansion.Ê no one needs to have more money than theyÊcan ever spend.Ê We only need a certain amount of food to survive.Ê Also you only quoted part of the scriptureabout living on "Bread alone." Let's read the rest of it.Ê"

    If you want to talk about needs, do we really need to live in a house? Why not on the streets or in the desert like John the Baptist. Do we really need bread and water? Why not just locust and wild honey?

    If you go by that reasoning, where do you draw the line? Who gives you the authority to say Ok a Christian lifestyle shld be this: No BMWs, no mansions, no.... next you'll be specifying how many CC, land area etc -- it sounds all real Communistic.

    Then ask yourself also, did Abraham/Job need that many servants and cattle-- hundreds, thousands. The Bible said he was VERY RICH. I'm sure they didnt "need" all that abundance! And if as you say they dont "need" all that, why did God bless them with all that? Did God make a boo-boo?

    Ge 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.
    Ge 24:1 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the LORD had blessed Abraham in all things.

    Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
     
  15. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

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  16. You said you don't need to strictly adhere to the laws of Moses, so why read them at all. How much do you think you are supposed to follow? How do you know which law to follow and which not to follow? 


    So you are blaming people for being poor. Do you know that nobody gave himself/herself life and that everyone is the way he/she is due to his genes and environment?  

    Good, As long as you are doing what is right in the eyes of God, that is what is important.

    How do you know I am not struggling? I don't like these type of baseless judgements.

    Go to this thread so that we can discuss further

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/24139.html


    Are you reading only the posts that I am replying to you? If you read all my posts in this thread (i started posting four days ago) you will find that I have refered to the bible and explained.

    I didn't say it is wrong to have money, but it is wrong to be rich.

     
     
  17. I would need to live comfortably so that I am not distracted in my search for the Kingdom of God. I don't need a rich life as this is going to blind me, in that it will make me a lover of life, a lover of the world, will make me proud. Being rich also implies you have no compassion for the poor.

    You are better of understanding the meaning of riches if you read the Gospels.
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Um, didn't Jesus say blessed are the poor? Since when did money start being a goal for Christians anyway?
     
  19. Luke 6:20

    "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
     
  20. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
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    If I don't have the money to do what God has called me to do then I would say that my faith is in need of repair somewhere.

    It may be my words: "O me O my, God's called me to go to Russia on a mission trip but I just don't know how I'm going to get the money to go"  Boo hoo boo hoo.  :cry:

    It may be my actions: "I've got to find as many people as possible to hit up for money because I've got this mission trip to go on and I've got to raise the money."  :sigh:

    Both examples are lack of faith.  If God has called you, then it is His responsibilty to lead you to the people whom He will direct to give you what you need to accomplish what He's called you to.

    Each situation is different.  What I need to accomplish what He's called me to is different from what you need to accomplish what He's called you to.

    Jesus is the goal.  He says we don't need to be concerned with what we wear or where we live.  He cares about the birds and the lillies of the field are in great array so how much more will He care for and array (which means rich apparial) us.

    Yes, He clothes us with His glory, but that does not mean that our bodies have to wear rags.  I just had some more clothes given to me the other night.  Right off the boutique rack.  Never worn.  Very expensive.  And I did not spend a penny.  But I'm sure that there will be some jealous sister or brother out there somewhere, who when they see me wear those outfits will judge me and say, "that must be where all her money goes.  No wonder she can't pay her bills!" 

    Our eyes and our desires are to be toward Him.  When they are, He just can't help Himself. . .He bestows on us good and precious gifts.  When He gives me more than enough, I pass it on to someone else and bless them.  What's wrong with that?
     
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