KJV Alone?

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twin1954

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As good as? I think that's a risky thing to say.

Is the Living Bible as good as the KJV or more accurate versions like the NASB?
The living Bible isn't a translation it is a paraphrase and therefore not worthy to even be considered. Many believe the NASB to be a more accurate translation but my experience says different. Certainly it is a good translation but not better than the KJV. An example would be the word translated love, agape, in the NASB. The KJV word charity more accurately gives the actual meaning of the word than just love.
 
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twin1954

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What are you comparing them to?
My knowledge of the Greek. The ESV, NASB and all other English translations are fine but they are not better than the KJV for the use of language and majesty of thought. The KJV is as accurate as any in how it translates the original languages.
 
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tall73

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The general criticism against those who believe God preserved His word for the English speaking world in the King James Bible is the following kind of false-accusations, often opening with the prejudicial insult of " You KVJ Onlyists" (twisting belief in God's word being preserved in English into a religion separate from Jesus Christ as all "isms" are religions, and the "ists" in the "isms" are practitioners of that religion) and then following with a number of points building a case for character assassination of those who believe God's word cannot be changed by varying versions, and cannot be discovered by comparing varying versions, but rather must be believed and accepted as God's word. The points often used are "uneducated" "judgmental" "self-righteous" "holier than thou" and such things. These kind of insults and proclamations of belief in a higher form of Christianity which does not pretend, as KJV onlyists are said to pretend, that they have God's word in English but rather that they claim humility in resigning the total failure of people who love God's word to preserve it, and they claim humility in accepting that God did not care enough to make sure His word would be preserved in English, and they claim humility in not judging right or wrong in modern versions (except of course judging that the King James Bible is not God's preserved word, otherwise they could not claim humility in rejecting it as God's preserved word).

The whole appeal of multiple versions is to inner pride, pride of intellect, pride of moral superiority for being Non-judgmental, pride of having the Holy Spirit to guide into truth combined with intellect to determine what God's word is with no solid standard outside of personal intellect by which to judge the veracity of one's impressions of what they think God's word is....no solid standard because the originals are lost and the multi-version embracer believes errors have been inserted in the copies and things have been lost or added so the whole choice of what is said to be God's word is arbitrary subject to human reasoning and not objective from God who cannot lie or change His word.

Many Christians who are not actually KJV only have said on this site in threads like these that the animosity against the King James Bible and KJV only believers is obvious. The highest standard is always the one most hated in the world. Christians and Jews have always been the most hated, and the most conservative in those groups are at the top of the list for being attacked.

They hated Jesus because He told them nothing but the truth, and he named their sins and called them names accordingly directly to their faces as well as preaching about those sins and those sinners loudly to the whole crowd. Jesus said if we follow Him, the world would hate us the same as they hated Him. It's easy to avoid ruffling feathers and focus on being comfortable and getting along with everybody. Following Jesus costs our lives, as He paid the price to own our lives. This is why I did not become a Christian when I first heard the gospel as a teenager. I clearly understood that if I believed on Jesus He was going to change my life and I would have had to stand against the self-indulgent pleasures I was enjoying with my friends. I knew that if I received Him in reality as He is, it would cost me my life because I would have to lose my life for Him who paid for it. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way we must follow Him is to die to ourselves and yield our lives to Him and He will separate us from the world and most people are afraid to forsake the comforts and pleasures of this world.

No Joe. The general criticism against KJV only folks is that they never explain their basis of authority for saying that the King James Translations is a perfect translation and a perfect representation of the originals, directed by God.The Scriptures never specifically reference a later translation by King James. So what is the basis for your claim about this translation? I have started two separate threads trying to get that answer.Yet that answer is not forthcoming.

Notice, the following may be proof of a good translation, which I think the KJV is, but not proof of a perfect translation directed by God:

a. based on protestant Bibles by people who stood for their faith
b. Stood the test of time
c. Memorable language, poetic language
d. used by God to win many souls.
e. A word for word translation style
f. Using a form of the majority text

etc.

Those are all fine arguments for using the KJV. They are not adequate to make claims of a perfect, God-led translation. They are especially not sufficient to do so when the translators themselves put margin notes when they could not decide on readings, and said the Spirit left some things questionable. They are specifically ruling out the notion that God led them to every correct reading, yet KJV onlyists make this claim. On what authority?
 
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John Robie

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The general criticism against those who believe God preserved His word for the English speaking world in the King James Bible is the following kind of false-accusations, often opening with the prejudicial insult of " You KVJ Onlyists" (twisting belief in God's word being preserved in English into a religion separate from Jesus Christ as all "isms" are religions, and the "ists" in the "isms" are practitioners of that religion) and then following with a number of points building a case for character assassination of those who believe God's word cannot be changed by varying versions, and cannot be discovered by comparing varying versions, but rather must be believed and accepted as God's word. The points often used are "uneducated" "judgmental" "self-righteous" "holier than thou" and such things. These kind of insults and proclamations of belief in a higher form of Christianity which does not pretend, as KJV onlyists are said to pretend, that they have God's word in English but rather that they claim humility in resigning the total failure of people who love God's word to preserve it, and they claim humility in accepting that God did not care enough to make sure His word would be preserved in English, and they claim humility in not judging right or wrong in modern versions (except of course judging that the King James Bible is not God's preserved word, otherwise they could not claim humility in rejecting it as God's preserved word).

The whole appeal of multiple versions is to inner pride, pride of intellect, pride of moral superiority for being Non-judgmental, pride of having the Holy Spirit to guide into truth combined with intellect to determine what God's word is with no solid standard outside of personal intellect by which to judge the veracity of one's impressions of what they think God's word is....no solid standard because the originals are lost and the multi-version embracer believes errors have been inserted in the copies and things have been lost or added so the whole choice of what is said to be God's word is arbitrary subject to human reasoning and not objective from God who cannot lie or change His word.

Many Christians who are not actually KJV only have said on this site in threads like these that the animosity against the King James Bible and KJV only believers is obvious. The highest standard is always the one most hated in the world. Christians and Jews have always been the most hated, and the most conservative in those groups are at the top of the list for being attacked.

They hated Jesus because He told them nothing but the truth, and he named their sins and called them names accordingly directly to their faces as well as preaching about those sins and those sinners loudly to the whole crowd. Jesus said if we follow Him, the world would hate us the same as they hated Him. It's easy to avoid ruffling feathers and focus on being comfortable and getting along with everybody. Following Jesus costs our lives, as He paid the price to own our lives. This is why I did not become a Christian when I first heard the gospel as a teenager. I clearly understood that if I believed on Jesus He was going to change my life and I would have had to stand against the self-indulgent pleasures I was enjoying with my friends. I knew that if I received Him in reality as He is, it would cost me my life because I would have to lose my life for Him who paid for it. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and the way we must follow Him is to die to ourselves and yield our lives to Him and He will separate us from the world and most people are afraid to forsake the comforts and pleasures of this world.
It appears that you've countered insults against you by insulting those who are against you. How do you justify this?

Oh, and I've not insulted you. However, you've ignored all criticism from me against your view.

Just pointing that out.
 
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tall73

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As good as?

In my view the KJV is very accurate in most instances. The biggest issue I have is that they did not use uniformity of translation so that each Greek word is translated by the same English word, but overall, yes it is very accurate.
 
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High Fidelity

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In my view the KJV is very accurate in most instances. The biggest issue I have is that they did not use uniformity of translation so that each Greek word is translated by the same English word, but overall, yes it is very accurate.

As far as translations go, it isn't bad, but I think it's worth discerning between acceptable and 'the only one'.
 
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twin1954

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No Joe. The general criticism against KJV only folks is that they never explain their basis of authority for saying that the King James Translations is a perfect translation and a perfect representation of the originals, directed by God.The Scriptures never specifically reference a later translation by King James. So what is the basis for your claim about this translation? I have started two separate threads trying to get that answer.Yet that answer is not forthcoming.

Notice, the following may be proof of a good translation, which I think the KJV is, but not proof of a perfect translation directed by God:

a. based on protestant Bibles by people who stood for their faith
b. Stood the test of time
c. Memorable language, poetic language
d. used by God to win many souls.
e. A word for word translation style
f. Using a form of the majority text

etc.

Those are all fine arguments for using the KJV. They are not adequate to make claims of a perfect, God-led translation. They are especially not sufficient to do so when the translators themselves put margin notes when they could not decide on readings, and said the Spirit left some things questionable. They are specifically ruling out the notion that God led them to every correct reading, yet KJV onlyists make this claim. On what authority?
Not to mention the fact that the KJV translators, being pedobaptist sprinklers, transliterated and coined a new word, baptism, instead of actually translating it.

There goes the KJV as being a perfect translation. :D
 
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tall73

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As far as translations go, it isn't bad, but I think it's worth discerning between acceptable and 'the only one'.

On that we agree completely.

There is another issue of course. I think the KJV is very accurate, but if you think the critical text is better you would of course favor something like the NASB, or ESV.

I tend to favor the majority text so to me the KJV or even a NKJV would be preferrable. Word for word literacy only goes so far if you have a bunch of words missing.

The NKJV is nice in that the foot notes give details on where the text disagrees with both the Majority text and the Critical text. In that regard you get a lot of information if you care about variants.
 
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twin1954

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As far as translations go, it isn't bad, but I think it's worth discerning between acceptable and 'the only one'.
Absolutely! I prefer the KJV but I do not use it exclusively in my study. I do use it exclusively in my preaching though. I find that even sometimes reading the Living Bible is helpful to get another prospective though I abhor paraphrases.
 
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twin1954

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It appears that you've countered insults against you by insulting those who are against you. How do you justify this?

Oh, and I've not insulted you. However, you've ignored all criticism from me against your view.

Just pointing that out.
That is Joe's MO. He never seems to make a valid argument but points fingers at all those who disagree with him. He is obviously intelligent enough and seemingly educated enough but I think that the weakness of his positions will not allow him to do so.
 
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High Fidelity

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Absolutely! I prefer the KJV but I do not use it exclusively in my study. I do use it exclusively in my preaching though. I find that even sometimes reading the Living Bible is helpful to get another prospective though I abhor paraphrases.

Well that's just it. The King James is beautiful and, as a Pastor I like to listen to says, it has a dignity that has since been lost in newer translations.

I do, however, prefer to use something more recent and accurate for studying. Studies can revolve around the word placement in a verse, so I think those little distinctions, at least from an academic standpoint, are important to consider and why I couldn't use the KJV exclusively even if I find it a pleasure to read.
 
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tall73

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Well that's just it. The King James is beautiful and, as a Pastor I like to listen to says, it has a dignity that has since been lost in newer translations.

I do, however, prefer to use something more recent and accurate for studying. Studies can revolve around the word placement in a verse, so I think those little distinctions, at least from an academic standpoint, are important to consider and why I couldn't use the KJV exclusively even if I find it a pleasure to read.

If you need to look at word placement then an interlinear or perhaps YLT etc. is necessary. Even if you do not understand the Greek in the interlinear you can at least see how the words were ordered for emphasis. And if you understand the basics about parts of speach the better interlinears parse things out. Of course, the parsing may hurt you more than it helps without a basic knowledge of Greek grammar.

Regular English translations can never capture the way Greek sentence structures work precisely.
 
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twin1954

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Well that's just it. The King James is beautiful and, as a Pastor I like to listen to says, it has a dignity that has since been lost in newer translations.

I do, however, prefer to use something more recent and accurate for studying. Studies can revolve around the word placement in a verse, so I think those little distinctions, at least from an academic standpoint, are important to consider and why I couldn't use the KJV exclusively even if I find it a pleasure to read.
Word order means little in the Greek. In English it is very important but in the Greek word order is determined by the noun, verb and context. When I first started trying to learn Greek I failed miserably because I didn't know English. I had to remedy that before I could even begin to grasp the Greek. The translation and interpretation of the Greek into English can be very difficult for that reason. Greek syntax and English syntax are not the same but to grasp the meaning of the sentences and phrases as a whole requires a knowledge of both.

The subject, predicate, object of the verb and other things in the Greek are determined by the ending of the words not the word order. Knowing what a participle is or a preposition or an adverb from an adjective, the case and number and person of the noun, the mood, tense, voice, number and person, and context are how word order is determined in the Greek.
 
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SaintJoeNow

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modern translators are jealous because God chose the translators of the King James Bible to bring His Word to the English speaking world and He did not respect the intellect and education of modern scholars in order to allow them to help Him. I really do feel sorry for modern translators, but history can't be changed. God doesn't allow it.
 
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Word order means little in the Greek. In English it is very important but in the Greek word order is determined by the noun, verb and context. When I first started trying to learn Greek I failed miserably because I didn't know English. I had to remedy that before I could even begin to grasp the Greek. The translation and interpretation of the Greek into English can be very difficult for that reason. Greek syntax and English syntax are not the same but to grasp the meaning of the sentences and phrases as a whole requires a knowledge of both.

Greek is one of the most inflected languages, so yes, with case endings, etc. you do not need word order to determine the meaning of the words.

However, the purpose of word order is the ability to move words forward or backward in the sentence to emphasize various points through placement. Since word order doesn't change the meaning as everything points to its verb, case, etc. the word order can be manipulated to emphasize without it disrupting the overall meaning.

Trying to follow a discussion of Greek word order and its meaning for emphasis with an English translation, even an interlinear, would not be overly helpful unless you knew enough Greek to know what they were talking about.
 
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tall73

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modern translators are jealous because God chose the translators of the King James Bible to bring His Word to the English speaking world and He did not respect the intellect and education of modern scholars in order to allow them to help Him

Joe, you still didn't even demonstrate that God did choose them for that purpose. No Scripture speaks of James and his translation, and the translators themselves said the Spirit left some things questionable.
 
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modern translators are jealous because God chose the translators of the King James Bible to bring His Word to the English speaking world and He did not respect the intellect and education of modern scholars in order to allow them to help Him. I really do feel sorry for modern translators, but history can't be changed. God doesn't allow it.

Seems Joe has realized that he has lost the argument as he is resorting to ad hominem attacks.
 
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twin1954

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modern translators are jealous because God chose the translators of the King James Bible to bring His Word to the English speaking world and He did not respect the intellect and education of modern scholars in order to allow them to help Him. I really do feel sorry for modern translators, but history can't be changed. God doesn't allow it.
So how do you explain the reason why the KJV translators transliterated the word baptize instead of translating it?
 
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