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Is the ESV still popular?

trophy33

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Too literal translations fall into the pit of confusion quite easily. Because idioms from one language must not be translated word for word, but interpreted.

For example "he slept with his fathers" or "gird up your loins" or "left hand of Damascus" or "my horn is exalted" are meaningless if not explained.
 
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The Liturgist

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Agreed, it is an annoying feature of COPILOT. One worth ignoring :)

you should be able to suppress it. by the way I sent you a PM relating to the issue
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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you should be able to suppress it. by the way I sent you a PM relating to the issue
I know, dear brother, and I am slow to respond because of life situations which have contributed to me posting less frequently.
 
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The Liturgist

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Too literal translations fall into the pit of confusion quite easily. Because idioms from one language must not be translated word for word, but interpreted.

For example "he slept with his fathers" or "gird up your loins" or "left hand of Damascus" or "my horn is exalted" are meaningless if not explained.

Or an extra-biblical example: In my language, we say "máš kliku", which, if translated literally, means "you have a handle". But it actually means "you are lucky". And this would be the correct translation.

That’s true, but most literal translations are not entirely literal but make some accomodations for changes in idiom between languages, just not to the extent of Dynamic Equivalence translations. For that matter, the best Dynamic Equivalence and the best Word for Word translations are not greatly different; a comparison of the NIV and the NKJV and the NASB and the ESV does not turn up anything particularly shocking.

One class of translation that can lead to confusion if used incorrectly, because they are in many cases hyper-literal, are interlinear translations.

However, you have touched on a major issue that affects all translations, for example, it is debatable how best to handle complex Greek words such as Logos, Prosopon, Anamnesis and so on, and many of the most popular translations of the New Testament make translation choices with regards to these words that I find frustrating, for example, translating Anamnesis as “Remembrance” rather than as something like “Recapitulation” (it literally means “put yourself in this moment” and if read literally does not support the Memorialist approach to sacramental theology). Also, the choice of most translations to translate Kohanim and Hierus as Priest, whch is an Anglicization of Presbyter, a Latinization of the Greek word Presbuteros meaning Elder, the specific title given to Christian clergy, but never used with respect to the Aaronic Kohanim of ancient Judaism, or the Sacerdotal, Hieratic Royalty of all believers, or the officiants of Pagan religions such as the Pontifex (Bridge Builder) of the ancient Roman civil religion, or the Mobed (Magi), hereditary hierarchs of the Zoroastrian religion equivalent to the Pandits (Brahmins) of Hinduism, or the Hierus of the Hellenic religion, were not Presbyters. Specifically, they were sacerdotal, and all Christians have a sacerdotal relationship with God in that we can pray directly without relying on a sacerdos, except insofar as we have an advocate and intermediary in the form of Jesus Christ (who is also our judge, which is good for us, since our advocate will sit in judgement of us on the dread day of judgement when all will be revealed, but we should still approach the Day of Judgement with an attitude of repentence of our sins, who is the equivalent to the Kohen Gadol of the descendents of Aaron, albeit of the higher order of Melchizedek, as explained in Hebrews (which does not mean we are required to pray alone without seeking the intercession of others).
 
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The Liturgist

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I know, dear brother, and I am slow to respond because of life situations which have contributed to me posting less frequently.

Me too; I have had a dreadful dreadful week and beg your prayers.
 
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FireDragon76

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I agree. But even the most literal word-for-word translation still has this issue. The translator still needs to choose what they believe is the most appropriate word in the target language for a word in the source language.

I'll admit that sometimes this is not going to be a problem at all, the Latin word cattus means "cat". But things get more complicated when we have a word like כַּפֹּ֫רֶת (kapporet) which going back to Luther has been called "mercy seat" (Luther used the word gnadenstuhl or "grace-seat"); the word kapporet comes from the root kaphar meaning "to cover", so would it be more accurate to translate it as "the covering"? This was the place where the blood of the sacrifice was sprinkled, between the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, when the high priest entered into the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur, "Day of Covering"?) . But because the act of sprinkling and covering this kapporet wrought forgiveness of sins to the nations, a reconciling of the people to God, we use words like atonement (a Tyndale coinage literally at-one-ment, to bring together as one, the state of being at one, united, reconciled, etc). And that concept then gets applied to the Greek word hilasterion, the same word which the Septuagint uses to translate kapporet, and which often is translated as expiation or propitiation (though, again, Tyndale coined atonement to translate this word).

There are layers of nuance, complexity, and historical factors all that need to be balanced, and no shortage of debates to be had. So even in a word-for-word, literal translation we still have to answer the difficult and not altogether precise question of "what is the literal translation?" Is there a literal translation of kapporet that satisfies the meaning and intent behind the original Hebrew word? If so, what is it? And to what degree are we importing our own philosophical, cultural, and theological biases to the text?

-CryptoLutheran

Actually, it's explainable in terms of the evolution of consciousness in western European thought. Transferring the meaning of a concrete thing into a symbol then an abstract idea is how language has evolved in western culture. Owen Barfield (the first and last Inkling), influenced by German Idealism, wrote a great deal about that process as the evolution of the structure of western consciousness towards increasing abstraction. The Hebraic imagination (as in many ancient cultures), on the other hand, communicated through concrete symbols, appealing to immediate embodied experience.
 
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The Liturgist

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I would really like to see more open source / public domain bible translations, and more translations into English from the Western Text Type (the Vetus Latina, translated along with the liturgy from the Septuagint and the Western Text Type of the New Testament, which has minor differences from the Byzantine (Majority Text) and Alexandrian (Minority Text), during the episcopal reign of St. Victor as Patriarch of Rome in the Second Century (at the time, the Bishop of Rome was not styled Pope; this convention began first in Alexandria in the third century and spread to Rome in the Fifth century). This Bible was replaced under the reign of Patriarch St. Damasus of Rome in the fourth century by the Vulgate, with applicable Old Testament texts directly translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic* by St. Jerome, however, the Vetus Latina retains beautiful Classical Latin phrases which remain in use in the Western churches such as the Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Moravian, Methodist, Reformed Catholic / Scoto-Catholic / Mercersburg Calvinist and Western Rite Orthodox churches even today, such as Gloria in Excelsis Deo (which even Protestants familiar with the traditional English language hymns we sang exclusively in my youth, before the devastation of praise and worship music visited itself upon the Methodist parish where I was baptized, estranging me from it, who have never heard it in the beautiful Gregorian chant** will recognize from the hymn Angels We Have Heard On High, which was one of my favorite Christmas hymns in my childhood because it was so much fun to sing, and is still one of my favorites to this day; if I were to organize some Orthodox Christmas Caroling, I would include that among traditional Western hymns and Eastern and Oriental Orthodox hymns.

Also using the Western Text Type is the Vetus Syra, in Syriac (indeed this is the only other text using it exclusively, but there are also traces in the Peshitta and other Syriac Bibles, so perhaps the Western Text Type should be renamed the “Syro-Latin Text Type”, but alas, when it comes to textual criticism I lack the influence to make that happen). The Vetus Syra consists only of the four Gospels, with a complete translation not happening until the Peshitta was finished in the fourth century (well, almost complete; it is missing 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation, as it was published either before or around the same time our modern 27 book New Testament canon was first promulgated by St. Athanasius of Alexandria in his 39th Paschal Encyclical, and shortly thereafter adopted by Rome, then Constantinople and Jerusalem and finally Antioch - the Syriac Orthodox version of the Peshitta, the Western Peshitto ( note the vowell shift; the West Syriac accent in the 6th century is where the pronunciation of the name of Christ as “Isho” originated), adding the books in question from a later translation of the Bible by St. Thomas of Harqel, which it would also be nice to have a translation of in English, as well as more and better translations of the Peshitta, particularly the Syriac Old Testament.

** In addition to Gregorian Chant, Gloria in Excelsis Deo is also heard in many beautiful settings of the Mass, such as Bach’s B Minor Mass, the exquisite setting of the traditional Latin Lutheran mass by JS Bach, which while not regularly used liturgically, unlike his other four Latin settings of the mass, and those of other Lutheran composers such as Franz Schubert (who also did a setting of the German Mass in addition to six settings of the Latin mass), represent the splendor of Lutheran Orthodox worship as it existed in the 17th and early 18th century and to a lesser extent the late 18th and early 19th century in Sweden, Norway, Saxony and certain other Northern European states, before the rise of Crypto-Calvinism, Rationalism and Pietism resulting from the expansion of the Reformed Prussian state, and of Liberalism, which destroyed Lutheran Orthodoxy in many places in Europe where it had survived the Calvinists and Pietists, such as parts of Germany such as Saxony, and Scandinavia (where the Pietists largely dominated in the more rural churches or moved to the Free Church), leaving the LCMS, LCC, AALC and a few other traditional Lutheran churches of the Evangelical Catholic form of my friends @MarkRohfrietsch @ViaCrucis and @Ain't Zwinglian (including the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia, the last surviving Lutheran majority country in Europe with a fully traditional church that is affiliated with the ILC, although the Latvian church also is a member of the Lutheran World Federation, but they are not solely a member of the LWF, like the liberal Church of Sweden, Church of Norway, Church of Denmark, etc (with the exception of Mission Provinces of the Church of Sweden, the Church of Finland and a few others, and also certain related movements.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Here's a ranked list of the most popular English Bible versions based on recent data and historical trends:

Most Popular Bible Versions (2025)

RankVersionTranslation StyleReadabilityNotable Features
1️⃣New International Version (NIV)Balanced (Thought-for-thought leaning)7th gradeWidely accessible, modern language, used across denominations
2️⃣King James Version (KJV)Formal equivalence (Word-for-word)12th grade+Classic literary style, traditional worship, historical impact
3️⃣New Living Translation (NLT)Dynamic equivalence (Thought-for-thought)6th gradeEasy to read, popular for devotionals and new believers
4️⃣English Standard Version (ESV)Essentially literal8th–9th gradePopular in Reformed circles, scholarly and precise
5️⃣New King James Version (NKJV)Formal equivalence9th gradeModernized KJV language, conservative appeal
6️⃣Christian Standard Bible (CSB)Optimal equivalence7th–8th gradeBalanced readability and accuracy, gaining traction
7️⃣Reina Valera (RV) (Spanish)Formal equivalenceVariesMost popular Spanish-language Bible
8️⃣New International Reader’s Version (NIrV)Simplified thought-for-thought3rd–4th gradeDesigned for children and ESL readers
9️⃣The Message (MSG)ParaphraseVery easyContemporary, poetic, highly interpretive
Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI) (Spanish)Dynamic equivalenceVariesSpanish counterpart to the NIV


Translation Styles Explained
  • Formal Equivalence: Word-for-word accuracy (e.g., KJV, ESV, NASB)
  • Dynamic Equivalence: Thought-for-thought clarity (e.g., NIV, NLT)
  • Paraphrase: Reworded for modern understanding (e.g., The Message)
 
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hedrick

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Here's a ranked list of the most popular English Bible versions based on recent data and historical trends:

Most Popular Bible Versions (2025)

RankVersionTranslation StyleReadabilityNotable Features
1️⃣New International Version (NIV)Balanced (Thought-for-thought leaning)7th gradeWidely accessible, modern language, used across denominations
2️⃣King James Version (KJV)Formal equivalence (Word-for-word)12th grade+Classic literary style, traditional worship, historical impact
3️⃣New Living Translation (NLT)Dynamic equivalence (Thought-for-thought)6th gradeEasy to read, popular for devotionals and new believers
4️⃣English Standard Version (ESV)Essentially literal8th–9th gradePopular in Reformed circles, scholarly and precise
5️⃣New King James Version (NKJV)Formal equivalence9th gradeModernized KJV language, conservative appeal
6️⃣Christian Standard Bible (CSB)Optimal equivalence7th–8th gradeBalanced readability and accuracy, gaining traction
7️⃣Reina Valera (RV) (Spanish)Formal equivalenceVariesMost popular Spanish-language Bible
8️⃣New International Reader’s Version (NIrV)Simplified thought-for-thought3rd–4th gradeDesigned for children and ESL readers
9️⃣The Message (MSG)ParaphraseVery easyContemporary, poetic, highly interpretive
Nueva Versión Internacional (NVI) (Spanish)Dynamic equivalenceVariesSpanish counterpart to the NIV


Translation Styles Explained
  • Formal Equivalence: Word-for-word accuracy (e.g., KJV, ESV, NASB)
  • Dynamic Equivalence: Thought-for-thought clarity (e.g., NIV, NLT)
  • Paraphrase: Reworded for modern understanding (e.g., The Message)
Formal equivalence isn't word for word. Sentence structure is different in English than Greek or Hebrew, and there are idioms and other cases where some level of interpretation is needed to be intelligble. ESV may be a bit more literal, particularly beginning half the sentences in the Gospel with "and". But it's still formal equivalent, not literal.

See Is the ESV Literal and the NIV Gender Neutral? - Mondays with Mounce… for an attempt to be more accurate in characterizing translations.
 
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Always in His Presence

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Formal equivalence isn't word for word. Sentence structure is different in English than Greek or Hebrew, and there are idioms and other cases where some level of interpretation is needed to be intelligble. ESV may be a bit more literal, particularly beginning half the sentences in the Gospel with "and". But it's still formal equivalent, not literal.

See Is the ESV Literal and the NIV Gender Neutral? - Mondays with Mounce… for an attempt to be more accurate in characterizing translations.
Formal equivalence is a translation approach that prioritizes preserving the exact wording, grammatical structure, and syntax of the source text in the target language. It aims to maintain a close, literal correspondence to the original language, often used in contexts like legal, technical, or religious texts where precision and fidelity to the source are critical. For example, in Bible translation, formal equivalence seeks to reflect the original Hebrew or Greek as closely as possible, even if the result may sound less natural in the target language. This contrasts with dynamic equivalence, which focuses on conveying the meaning and intent in a more natural, idiomatic way.

My list however was in response to the OP.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Formal equivalence isn't word for word. Sentence structure is different in English than Greek or Hebrew, and there are idioms and other cases where some level of interpretation is needed to be intelligble. ESV may be a bit more literal, particularly beginning half the sentences in the Gospel with "and". But it's still formal equivalent, not literal.

See Is the ESV Literal and the NIV Gender Neutral? - Mondays with Mounce… for an attempt to be more accurate in characterizing translations.

I was always annoyed in my English classes that sentences cannot begin with a coordinating conjunction. And, turns out, it's one of those grammar rules that isn't actually a rule. It is perfectly fine to begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. English has done it for a long time. The point of grammar is legibility--there are a host of "rules" that aren't rules at all in English. In many cases such "rules" are entirely arbitrary inventions of a single person who treated their personal preferences as though they were objective rules to be set down for all time--and usually these were pompous old blokes from Victorian times.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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hedrick

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I was always annoyed in my English classes that sentences cannot begin with a coordinating conjunction. And, turns out, it's one of those grammar rules that isn't actually a rule. It is perfectly fine to begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. English has done it for a long time. The point of grammar is legibility--there are a host of "rules" that aren't rules at all in English. In many cases such "rules" are entirely arbitrary inventions of a single person who treated their personal preferences as though they were objective rules to be set down for all time--and usually these were pompous old blokes from Victorian times.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

-CryptoLutheran
The same pompous old blokes that said you couldn't use "they" as a gender-neutral singular, a usage that we can actually find before Victorian times, starting in the 14th Cent.
 
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The Liturgist

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I was always annoyed in my English classes that sentences cannot begin with a coordinating conjunction. And, turns out, it's one of those grammar rules that isn't actually a rule. It is perfectly fine to begin a sentence with a coordinating conjunction. English has done it for a long time. The point of grammar is legibility--there are a host of "rules" that aren't rules at all in English. In many cases such "rules" are entirely arbitrary inventions of a single person who treated their personal preferences as though they were objective rules to be set down for all time--and usually these were pompous old blokes from Victorian times.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

-CryptoLutheran

The same pompous old blokes that said you couldn't use "they" as a gender-neutral singular, a usage that we can actually find before Victorian times, starting in the 14th Cent.

How about certain restrictive rules concerning prepositions?
 
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ViaCrucis

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How about certain restrictive rules concerning prepositions?

That's actually prime example of a "rule" invented by a pompous old bloke. In this case, that pompous old bloke's name was John Dryden. Though, in this case, not Victorian.


-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I think ESV is commonly called the Extremely Stupid Version and NIV is called the Non-Inspired Version

Uh nope, neither are commonly called that actually.

But thanks for dropping by and adding nothing to the conversation.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I think ESV is commonly called the Extremely Stupid Version and NIV is called the Non-Inspired Version
Perhaps in your circles, where The King James Version reigns supreme and no toleration is shown for any other translation, those terms are common but that would be in your circles, not in mine.
 
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