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Which KJV verse is correct and which is incorrect?

FenderTL5

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I am a universalist on alternate days. On those when I am not, I think the traditional responses are pretty much all double-talk, trying to explain why all is not really all. However Dunn's commentary on Romans makes an interesting suggestion: that Paul believed in eschatological universalism. I believe what he means by that is that eventually all will come to Christ, but not that everyone in history has done so. Rom 11 can be read that way. Israel is temporarily blinded but will eventually all come to Christ. That does not necessarily mean that every Jew will come to Christ, but that in the end all will.

As to traditional responses, Calvin's comment on Rom 5:18 is typical. (He ignores the issue in 1 Cor 15:22). Christ died for the whole world, but not everyone takes advantage of it. (Note that Calvin probably didn't believe in the L in TULIP.)
There is a school of thought within Orthodoxy that would almost agree. The concept is that all (yes, all) are made alive for eternity and that all (yes, all) will experience eternity in the presence of the Holy God. Those who love HIM will bask in His love for eternity and it will be heaven(ly). The enemies of God will experience that same love as a miserable consuming fire and it will be hell.
If this concept has merit, it would indicate agreement in the OPs supposed dichotomy that, "some are punished forever." and "..that all are made alive. "
As @The Liturgist said, that makes both correct.

(EDIT to add LINKAGE)
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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They actually are both correct; the correct answer is that through Christ we are made righteous (Lutherans call this imputed righteousness; within Eastern Orthodoxy we don’t have a term specifically for this, but regard it as part of the process of theosis, which John Wesley translated into English as entire sanctification) and those in Christ, who is the New Adam, will be saved, whereas those without shall wind up in the Outer Darkness.

How is it that we can be in Christ? Well in 1 Corinthians St. Paul identifies the Christian Church, however we define it, as the Body of Christ, and so by being baptized (or intending to be baptized, if we should perchance die before immersion) we are grafted onto the Body of Christ which ensures our salvation.

My dearly beloved brethren @prodromos @FenderTL5, @Xeno.of.athens and @ViaCrucis can explain this matter from an Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and traditional Protestant manner respectively, since you have shown an interest in all three faiths; I would encourage you to seek them out if they are unable to post here directly.
I am a universalist on alternate days. On those when I am not, I think the traditional responses are pretty much all double-talk, trying to explain why obviously parallel clauses using all aren’t really parallel. However Dunn's commentary on Romans makes an interesting suggestion: that Paul believed in eschatological universalism. I believe what he means by that is that eventually all will come to Christ, but not that everyone in history has done so. Rom 11 can be read that way. Israel is temporarily blinded but will eventually all come to Christ. That does not necessarily mean that every Jew will come to Christ, but that in the end all will.

As to traditional responses, Calvin's comment on Rom 5:18 is typical. (He ignores the issue in 1 Cor 15:22). Christ died for the whole world, but not everyone takes advantage of it. (Note that Calvin probably didn't believe in the L in TULIP.)
Haydock comments:
1 Corinthians 15:13-23
He brings many reasons to convince them of the resurrection.​
  1. If there be no resurrection for others, Christ is not risen again: but his resurrection (as he tells them ver. 4) was foretold in the Scriptures.
  2. And if Christ be not risen again,...your faith is also in vain, this being one of the chief articles of your belief.
  3. We should be found guilty of lies and impostures; and yet we have confirmed this doctrine by many miracles.
  4. It would follow that you are not freed from your sins; i.e. unless Christ, by his resurrection, has triumphed over sin and death.
  5. Without a resurrection we Christians, who live under self-denials and persecutions, would be the most miserable of all men, neither happy in this world nor in the next, for the happiness of the soul requires also a happy resurrection of the body.
  6. Christ is the first-fruits, and the first begotten of the dead, of those who have slept: and by his being the first-fruits, it must be supposed that others also will rise after him.
  7. As death came by the first man, (Adam) so the second man (Christ) came to repair the death of men, both as to body and soul; and without Christ’s resurrection, both the souls of men have remained dead in their original sins, and their bodies shall not rise again. (Witham)
On the specific issue of "all" in the passage - And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 DRB - all do die a natural death because of their inclusion in Adam, and all who are in Christ are promised life in Christ so the "all" applies universally to those in their respective "parent", Adam for all of humanity and Christ for all of the faithful.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is a school of thought within Orthodoxy that would almost agree. The concept is that all (yes, all) are made alive for eternity and that all (yes, all) will experience eternity in the presence of the Holy God. Those who love HIM will bask in His love for eternity and it will be heaven(ly). The enemies of God will experience that same love as a miserable consuming fire and it will be hell.
If this concept has merit, it would indicate agreement in the OPs supposed dichotomy that, "some are punished forever." and "..that all are made alive. "
As @The Liturgist said, that makes both correct.

(EDIT to add LINKAGE)

Indeed, this is the prevailing school of thought, but you omitted one detail - the Outer Darkness is a final mercy of God for those who hate Him, since in it they won’t experience His love as wrath and be tormented by it. Since as St. John Chrrysostom pointed out, the worst possible punishment is not participating in the everlasting joy of the life of the world to come, those in the Outer Darkness will be weeping over this fact and gnashing their teeth in continued hatred of God. This concept also calls to mind what CS Lewis wrote, “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.”*

This approach has the advantage of agreeing with the Scriptural declarations that the reprobates will suffer eternally, while preserving God’s infinite mercy, and of being integrated into the Orhtodox synergist position, which is based on the idea that God is omnipotent, but won’t force us to love Him, since love is only meaningful if it is voluntary (Metropolitan Kallistos Ware went so far as to say that the one thing God cannot do is force us to love Him; I would rather see this as being an incompatibility with God’s nature as being Love, since coercion is incompatible with true love, which is always voluntary; likewise, since God promises us repeatedly throughout scripture that He is unchanging, He does not change, although I would not say that God is incapable of change (some might argue this flows naturally from His eternality to which I would reply that not only is time but also timelessness as a concept necessarily a creation of God, who transcends all concepts of space and time and reality, having originated all of them in the creation of this universe, for in John 1:1-18 we are told that by Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son and Word of God, God incarnate, in whom the Father is revealed, all things were made, and thus anything that we can imagine that is not expressly declared to be uncreated or unoriginatte or that is not a creation but rather a destruction, such as evil, was created by God.

There is also a very small minority of Eastern Orthodox that believes in apokatastasis, but this doctrine is not officially embraced by any Eastern Orthodox church and indeed was rejected at the Fifth Ecumenical Synod. I have some additional notes on this which I might share privately but am reticent to discuss publically, as they involve the ecumenical relationship with our friends and fellow victims of Islamic, Hindu Nationalist and Communist persecution, the Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Christians in the Middle East, Africa and India, relating to the historic support for apokatastasis by the Assyrian Church of the East and people associated with it, and also the issue of the schismatic Old Calendarists. Thus in the unlikely event that any of my theologically learned friends wish to see my notes on the subject they should open a conversation with me.

*Indeed I quite like his story The Great Divorce (which uses the literary device of being a nightmare) in which those in Hell have an opportunity to enter Heaven but one by one convince themselves that, for various absurd and secular reasons, it would be better for them to not bother (some fail to board the angelic bus that takes them to a beautiful mountainous area outside Heaven, and still others once there, having met loved ones, decide they would be better off returning to
 
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The Liturgist

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Haydock comments:
1 Corinthians 15:13-23
He brings many reasons to convince them of the resurrection.​
  1. If there be no resurrection for others, Christ is not risen again: but his resurrection (as he tells them ver. 4) was foretold in the Scriptures.
  2. And if Christ be not risen again,...your faith is also in vain, this being one of the chief articles of your belief.
  3. We should be found guilty of lies and impostures; and yet we have confirmed this doctrine by many miracles.
  4. It would follow that you are not freed from your sins; i.e. unless Christ, by his resurrection, has triumphed over sin and death.
  5. Without a resurrection we Christians, who live under self-denials and persecutions, would be the most miserable of all men, neither happy in this world nor in the next, for the happiness of the soul requires also a happy resurrection of the body.
  6. Christ is the first-fruits, and the first begotten of the dead, of those who have slept: and by his being the first-fruits, it must be supposed that others also will rise after him.
  7. As death came by the first man, (Adam) so the second man (Christ) came to repair the death of men, both as to body and soul; and without Christ’s resurrection, both the souls of men have remained dead in their original sins, and their bodies shall not rise again. (Witham)
On the specific issue of "all" in the passage - And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22 DRB - all do die a natural death because of their inclusion in Adam, and all who are in Christ are promised life in Christ so the "all" applies universally to those in their respective "parent", Adam for all of humanity and Christ for all of the faithful.

Thank you for that very excellent treatment of the issue, which also has much in common with Orthodox doctrine on the issue - except, correct me if I’m wrong, Roman Catholics share our belief that everyone will be resurrected, even the damned, but it won’t do them any good in terms of their eschatological outcome.
 
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The Liturgist

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I am a universalist on alternate days. On those when I am not, I think the traditional responses are pretty much all double-talk, trying to explain why obviously parallel clauses using all aren’t really parallel. However Dunn's commentary on Romans makes an interesting suggestion: that Paul believed in eschatological universalism. I believe what he means by that is that eventually all will come to Christ, but not that everyone in history has done so. Rom 11 can be read that way. Israel is temporarily blinded but will eventually all come to Christ. That does not necessarily mean that every Jew will come to Christ, but that in the end all will.

As to traditional responses, Calvin's comment on Rom 5:18 is typical. (He ignores the issue in 1 Cor 15:22). Christ died for the whole world, but not everyone takes advantage of it. (Note that Calvin probably didn't believe in the L in TULIP.)

That’s very interesting, thank you.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I can't figure out how you got that question from the post you answered
It's a comparison statement, but the usual application results in an nonequivalent application between the two compared things.
 
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Lukaris

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One KJV verse says that some are punished forever. Another KJV verse says that all are made alive. They can't BOTH be true, so which one is, please?

Matthew 25:46
King James Version
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
There is a resurrection for all; the good to everlasting life and the evil to everlasting condemnation. ( see John 5:22-30). A life of salvation is seen in a positive sense whereas a life of condemnation is seen in a negative sense. Outside of salvation by grace in this world ( Ephesians 2:8-10), there are only works but there is a judgment of these works which only God knows ( see Romans 2:6-16, John 3:16-21 etc.).We can at least pray for all ( 1 Timothy 2:1-6 etc.).
 
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JulieB67

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One KJV verse says that some are punished forever. Another KJV verse says that all are made alive. They can't BOTH be true, so which one is, please?

Matthew 25:46
King James Version
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:22 King James Version
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
We have to take the word "alive" back to the Greek. It's #2227 zoopoieo and it means- make alive. give life, quicken.

The Greek word is in this verse as well but it's translated quickened-

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

It means after he died he was made alive again by the Spirit. All will be be quickened at some point but it doesn't mean they have eternal life. Only those in Christ will achieve that.

Also notice in this verse -"that he might bring us to God". He did his part. The rest is up to us.
 
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