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K. Hagin & God allowing or causing sickness

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by LinkH, Jun 13, 2012.

  1. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    In Romans 8:17, it is promised that if we don't suffer with Him, we won't reign with Him. 1 Peter 2:21 says Christ suffered, as our example to walk in, and the Philippians were told they were called to NOT ONLY BELIEVE, but to suffer. Here is the real clincher for you. JAMES SAID THAT THE POOR IN HIS CHURCH, WERE STILL RICH IN FAITH, SHOWING THAT FAITH, DOES NOT ALWAYS BRING MONEY, AND BY FAITH, MOSES CHOSE TO SUFFER, AND LEAVE MATERIAL RICHES. So mull that over my dear brother. SH.:)
     
  2. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Fair to say though, we know who the "sow a seed to me" people are, they coined, and own the phrase. They never mention to the little seed sowers, that Paul was not saying it by command, 2 Corinthians 8:8, as they do, and Paul was not getting the money for himself.

    They also never mention that the seed return, might not happen with money, as we see even if the Corinthians did "sow a seed", there might not be a money return, they may also be broke one day, proving the return is not always financial.


    2 Corinthians 8:14 But to have equality [share and share alike], your surplus over necessity at the present time going to meet their want and to equalize the difference created by it, so that [at some other time] their surplus in turn may be given to supply your want. Thus there may be equality,
     
  3. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Yes, and they also never mention, in their endless seed faith doctrine, that Paul said in 2 Corinthians not to be burdened, and left an exemption clause for the poor, and told them not to give, if they don't have, not like these theachers who say give no matter what. Also, according to the seed doctrine, those to whom Paul made an exemption, the poor, can't ever get rich, they have no money to give, so they will be stuck without "seed return". They can't sow.


    2 Corinthians 8:12 For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. 13 For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness

    Then he also stressed those who had money to give, that was what he meant by abundance, there were both classes of people in the church at Corinth, so he was not belittling the poor, not like the demanding, extracting preachers of today do, as they say no seed sowing, no money using fear and manipulation.

    8:14 your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness.

    You say good things here on the thread. SH.:)
     
  4. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    Wow. You're sure hung up on this "sow a seed" thing.

    Most WoF people aren't quite as enamored with money as its detractors seem to be. ;)

    :cool:
     
  5. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    You can say this a million times, but they've already made up their minds. They don't really care what we actually believe. ;)

    :cool:
     
  6. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    There is a man on TV, "Dr" Michael something or other, he has been extracting seeds for years every single day on TV, now there is person hung up on the seed doctrine.:D
     
  7. dkbwarrior

    dkbwarrior Favoured of the Lord

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    The "sow a seed to me" people are not synonymous to WOF. Unfortunately, there are, as Biblicist pointed out, poeple of this persuasion in all groups and denominations. It is true, however, that there is alot of this in WOF leaning television ministry. The person that coined the phrase, however, was Oral Roberts, who was a Charismatic, not WOF, with "Seed faith giving".

    For many of us in WOF, we are as tired of the "sow a seed to me" people as you obviously are. Although, that doesn't entirely invalidate the principle, just because many misuse it.

    There are also many in WOF that don't do this. Many that offer all of their materials free of charge for download online, like Andrew Womack, and Kieth Moore. Unfortunately, the only face of WOF that most critics see, is the incessant pleas for money on christian television. That is unfortunate, but it does not define the movement.

    Additionally, as I said in another thread, WOF deosn't think we will never have hardships and trials. That is the veiw of someone on the outside looking in through a dirty window. It is the statement of the critic, not a belief of WOF. If you really believe that, I challenge you to find a statement of any widely regocnized WOF leader that says that we will never experienc trouble in this life if we have faith. You wont be able to find it, because we don't believe it. The only place you will be able to find such statements is from people like you. It is not what we believe at all. Kenneth Hagin himself said that many people get the impression that if you have faith you should go through life on flowery beds of ease. Nothing could be further from the truth. But faith in God will ensure that we will come through our trials and the suffering that comes with them into victory on the other side.

    Peace...
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  8. dkbwarrior

    dkbwarrior Favoured of the Lord

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    No doubt. I have never given a dime to that person. I wont go as far as to call him a charlatan, because that goes against the command of my Lord to not judge, but I never give when I feel manipulated into it. Manipulation is not of God.

    Peace...
     
  9. ARBITER01

    ARBITER01 Legend

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    The charismatic movement exhibited the same manifestation of truth as the pentecostal movement did, and that was GOD's Spiritual gifts in operation.

    What you are attempting to promote here is a man's teachings, a sort of doctrinal movement, and that is certainly not the same.
     
  10. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Do Kenneth Copeland, and Hagin, also teach the sow a seed doctrine, using the exact same mangling of the text, as "Dr" Michael does?:)
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Gee... I agree here... If there is one thing Charismatics avoid it is excessive doctrine. There are many churches here that are the result of closed businesses. I have visited these churches and find them very uncomplicated in the doctrine.

    There is even a church here that I sometimes go to (http://cgcchurch.com/) that is partners with the Kenneth Copeland ministries... Here is their doctrinal statement... Which is also found on the Kenneth Copeland web site...

    What We Believe – Statement of Faith


    • We believe in one God manifested in three person: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
    • We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the first begotten Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, buried, resurrected, ascended into heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father and is true God and true man.
    • We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the inspired Word of God and the infallible rule of faith and conduct.
    • We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal happiness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.
    • We believe in personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
    • We believe in sanctification through the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit, and we believe in personal holiness, purity of heart and life.
    • We believe in divine healing through faith in the Name of Jesus Christ and that healing is included in the Redemption.
    • We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.
    • We believe in the Christian’s hope; the soon-coming, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    Is this Word of Faith doctrine? I don't think so!

    Now... Before I decided stupidly to try to post in the Word of Faith forum... I would have thought that this would have been a Word of Faith church... But... I probably would have had a hundred doctrinal statements threw at me and reported for posting in a forum for which I was not a member.

    There is a difference between these Faith Groups...

    Pentecostal's
    - Basically Methodist in doctrine... Unless you are a Oneness Pentecostal
    Charistmatics - Frowns on complicated doctrine. The churches I have visited don't even like talking about it.... Lets go to church and worship the Lord!
    Word of Faith - Seems to enjoy their complicated doctrine...

    Joel Osteen's Lakewood church is a Charismatic independent church... When you read their doctrinal statment it goes something like this.


    We believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.

    We believe in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.

    We believe Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.

    We believe water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ
    and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    in the regular taking of Communion
    as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.

    We believe every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God's Word
    , yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.

    Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen have simple doctrines! And therefore are not WOF! In that they stressed not Speaking in Tongues not Pentecostal either! They are definitely Charismatic Independents! In which, I enjoy both ministries!
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  12. dkbwarrior

    dkbwarrior Favoured of the Lord

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    Sowing and reaping is a biblical doctrine. Do you think it is not?

    6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
    8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
    9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
    10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
    -2 Corinthians 9:6-10

    However, neither Ken Copeland, nor Ken Hagin ever twisted it to manipulate people into giving to them, right now, for a special blessing from God, as some others do.

    Peace...
     
  13. dkbwarrior

    dkbwarrior Favoured of the Lord

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    I agree with you. I love both Ken Copeland and Joel Osteen. Awesome ministries.

    Peace....
     
  14. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Thanks... And if I hadn't made this clear enough...

    ... Faith is stressed in the Gospels more than any other virtue.
    ... Jesus discipled his followers to the life of faith in his name
    ... Faith is the cornerstone of our salvation... Faith and faith alone
    ... With our faith nothing is impossible for us

    Could post supporting scriptures but would end up pasting half the messages of the Gospel. Faith is more important than charisma... Faith is more important than speaking in tongues... Not to say that you won't have a charisma or a heavenly prayer language!
     
  15. ARBITER01

    ARBITER01 Legend

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    While I agree with you about honoring GOD's promises, and operating in what enlightenment He has currently given each of us, that doesn't relinquish from the fact that exit polling is a second hand way of gauging accuracy.

    Without wof being a denomination, there is just no way of truly knowing who believes it's principles,... and to what degree they do, and which ones.
     
  16. Seeking Him

    Seeking Him Regular Member

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    Ahhh, but let me ask you a truthful question about the delivery of “the principle”?

    Do the seed faith people ever point out this principle, seen in the text???

    #1. The money was not for Paul’s ministry? All while they silently, or by way of a 1-800 phone number send out a “sow to me signal”?

    #2 Do they ever say, don’t give, if you don’t have?

    #3 Do they ever show how the “seed sowing Corinthians” might be broke one day, even though they sowed, as per 2 Corinthians 8:14, proving that the reaping, might not be material?

    #4 Do they ever say to give out of extra, or only the people that are not burdened should give?

    #5 Do they ever point out how Paul said this was not by command in 2 Corinthians 8:8, all while they turn the event into a command?

    #6 Do they , as they wield the power guilt word of “tithe”, ever point out that it was a Levitical law, while they try to bless or condemn using Malachi 3, to leverage money, a book written to Israel, under tithing ordinances that the church is not under? If we raise the curse, or the blessing, we raise the Old Covenant, that is a fact.

    #7 Why do they raise a curse for not tithing, yet not raise a Levitical curse for eating shrimp., crab, pork, lobster, etc? Do they have a tithing bias? Heee heee. If they are going to curse for not tithing, then they have to cuse for eating pork! Hee hee.

    #7 Do they ever stress how Paul, who for the most part worked, not to burden the church, all while he had his back opened up 5 times being whipped, while being stoned, yet still making tents? This while they often live in large homes, demanding money from the sheeple.

    #8 Do they, as they contort Hebrews 7, which was really just showing the superiority of Melchizedek, say that the text was just that, showing how great Melchizedek was, and how that passage was not a tithing doctrine, for the church? Do you see the flow and context of the introduction of the superiority of Melchizedek? Context! It was not about tithing for the church!


    #9 Do they, as they try to turn the man of grace, into a tithing law, show the truth that Abraham just gave one time, out of a 175 year life span, and it was not his money, and it was from the spoils of war? Are we to be circumcised and practice levirate marriage as Abraham did? See what I mean? Why don’t they say to do ALL that Abraham did, since they just want to stress the one time act?

    #10 Do they ever just realize that scripture says, they, leaders can’t be greedy, as per several NT passages?

    Feel free to ask for citations for everything here, I am more than ready and willing, thanks! SH.
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    So true....

    What often seems to happen is that rarely are the founders of WOF ever quoted or seen in the context they spoke in simply because they spoke highly of how the Lord blesses His people as much as he expects them to go through.

    IMHO, much of the discussion comes down to the issue of how we are to view those struggling economically—and whether God desires for them to be there…or, if he wants them comforted.

    Specifically, the main thrust is how do we view the poor—in light of the view that those born impoverished are perhaps destined to be there rather than it being a matter where choice/circumstances determined their lot.

    Scripture does say that we’re to be about addressing injustice wherever we see it (Exodus 23:1-3, Exodus 23:5-7, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 16:18-20, Deuteronomy 16:19-21, Deuteronomy 24:16-18, Deuteronomy 27:18-20, 1 Samuel 8:2-4, 1 Kings 10:8-10 , Job 31:12-14 , Psalm 9:15-17, Psalm 33:5, Psalm 50:6, Psalm 140:12, Ecclesiastes 5:7-9 , Isaiah 10:1-3 , Isaiah 11:3-5, Isaiah 29:20-22 , Isaiah 59:3-14, Isaiah 58:5-7, Jeremiah 22:12-14, Ezekiel 9:8-10 , Hosea 12:5-7, Amos 2:6-8, Amos 5:6-24, Micah 3:8-10 , Zechariah 7:8-10, Malachi 3:4-6, Matthew 23:22-24, Luke 11:41-43, )—with the Lord mentioning repeatedly he was quite TICKED off whenever his people chose not to live it out….or, in many cases, lay an issue of injustice at his feet that He did not cause.
    —————
    Job 8:3
    Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right?
    —————–
    If God blesses someone with riches, I Timothy 6 makes clear that they’re to be generous with what they have so that they can store up toward God and be rich in the life to come. If God called someone to have a mansion/his blessing was upon it, it’d be beautiful to see it used for something such as hosting those who are struggling—-or community outreachs such as barbecues and parties where one can do as Jesus Himself noted in Luke 14 when it comes to having a banquet and inviting the POOR, the cripple and the lame rather than only those who are well off..

    For believers in other struggling countries, they indeed face suffering on a grand scale—and they are proud to do so for the sake of Christ. Yet, paradoxically, they also make clear many times that its far more difficult to live for Christ when there’s nothing but PHYSICAL comfort—to the point where they’re sending missionaries over to our own country to evangelize us since they feel that we have it worse….as we’re gradually put to sleep in a manner akin to “killing me softly”

    Its also interesting how the issue of comfort makes a significant realm of difference when it comes to the subject of social justice—for as it concerns many of the ways in which addressing DISCOMFORT was the entire reason why action was taken.

    It was one of the basic reasons when it came to slavery in the U.S or inequality for minorities in our land….and abroad, there are MANY nations in Asia where the economy is struggling–and the evidence of this can be seen in many of the trades they allow/support there which are apart of the Black Market/Underworld dealings, be it the SEX-Slave Trade or SweatShopes and many other horrendous things that others have died from…….and there’s a need for us in the West to aid them. Just read an article the other day at work that dealt with the issue of how smuggling wildlife is one of the top industries in the world—a sympton of the black market and organized crime….and in many ways, a rape of the natural world due to the bad economies of certain Asian nations.

    And with that comes the believers trapped in things such as the black market of human trafficking—or even legitimate markets that work people to death, such as the sweat .

    I would think that it’d be a matter of justice for believers to seek to address these things/pray and work so that they’d have comfort on those areas. For as was the case with the rise of Liberation Theology, it wasn’t so long ago that people in the Catholic church said that those who were born into poverty or hard times were destined to stay there/be “content” while those who are rich were also called to be where they were…with one social class of people ignored because of a teaching that said God wanted others to be stuck on a certain economic level

    Whenever I think of others—such as a T.D Jakes, for example, and his bent toward Prosperity Theology—it seems to be apart of a larger issue within the Black Community in General…..as there are many teachers in a myriad of denominations holding to Biblical Prosperity because of the situations that certain people groups are in—and within Black Culture, getting off of the Streets/Out of the Hood has always been a long-standing issue. And alongside that is the issue of what’s known as “Libertation Theology.”

    Learned of it when studying for my career in Social Work/Social Justice Advocay—and IMHO, its truly one of the most beautiful expressions of what the scriptures discuss when it comes to seeing a brother/sister in need of provision but simply wishing them well…or telling them to be cool with where they’re at (I John 2-3). Others who are founders within the movement would be people such as priest Gustavo Gutiérrez. James Cone would be another influential leader in the movement—as he contexualized it within the framework of something known as Black Liberation Theology. Brilliant man, IMHO…and highly enjoyed reading his works, seeing that in the black community what he was saying were things we’d be feeling for ages.

    With Liberation Theology, much of it arose in response to what happened often throughout church history….as it concerns Ascetism and focusing seldom to none on the physical and believing one becomes more spiritual as they have less. It was highly influential in the Catholic Church for a good bit…and in many other churches since who say God’s not concerned for things such as healing of the body (as Jesus did often) or having goods….condeming others who dare to believe in praying for the sick to get healed/believing Gods heart is for wholeness and that its not wrong to live comfortably. Its what often kept those who were poor in their states, as their condition was “spiritualized” and made to look bad if one tried to rise up from that….as the prevailing view was that God “ordained” each of us to remain in the state of life that we were born into—and so if you were born poor, you were not to fight against it.


    It was very similar to what’s happening in India right now with Hinduism and the Caste System, as it relates to the Dalits (i.e. “Untouchables”) who were born that way due to “bad karma”….and so to try addressing their physical plights should be avoided.

    I’m reminded of Martin Luther King and where he comes from on the issue of Prosperity, as often it seemed that emphasis was placed upon the spiritual—-yet the physical was of not importance…with those who were against blacks using the dynamics of “heaven” to convice others it was wrong to care about physical institutions such as Jim Crow or Slavery. As Martin Luther King said best, , “A minister cannot preach the glories of heaven while ignoring social conditions in his own community that cause [people] an earthly hell.”-He said this in regards to other colored preachers of his day who’d talk about God and yet not do anything on physical conditions others dealt with. Some of its similar to others who have a “pie in the sky” mindset, as opposed to others who are of the mindset that heaven is to be brought to Earth

    As Martin said on the issue of poverty:

    Anyone studying the lives of Martin Luther King and Malcom X know that they were very sharp toward the ways others viewed the projects. For many, as they are already in a state where they have ENOUGH in Middle Class and to simply want more would be a big deal, that’s one thing…..but for one trying to keep herself/her kids alive, it’s a different gig…..and because of the impoverished states they’re in and the large neglect many have given to aiding them physically…..which is a big deal. Liberation Theology fought to make CLEAR Jesus was concerned for the phyical state of the poor as much as the spiritual.

    It’s sad, for example, when seeing how much the BLUE Jean industry is thriving and we deem it a sign of “Success” despite how many are worked to death/mistreated severely….and often times, they don’t know of any other way to escape the system or feel like they’ve been empowered. Due to the issue of globalization and how they in the factories due to the consumer demand, we in the West aid in their discomfort—-and yet, for the sake of a product, we’ll say that they need to stay at that level of discomfort……nevermind that we ourselves would not wish to be there.

    For a good documentary on the issue, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of "China Blue":


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwMZ2b9hdTY


    For a good example of others seeking to bring justice to the economic community, I’m reminded of the ministry of of David Gibbons. He’s a Cool kat, IMHO, as the man has made a ministry of going out into streets/doing ministry in radical ways. He’s apart of something known as Third Culture….and it truly has reminded me of what Christ said when He said what it meant to be a Good Samaritan–bringing PHYSICAL comfort to those who are discomforted (Luke 10:25-39)…and how to live out the Gospel.

    For a video to view on the issue, one can go online to Youtube and look up something under the name of the following:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEzSZFO_ko&feature=related

    Additionally, one can go online to YouTube and investigate the video under the name of the following:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9okkEtCps&feature=related

    Xealot, a non-profit organization, is a group of courageous, committed individuals whose goal is simply to transform communities globally. They invest in the long-term sustainability and development of troubled communities around the world. This video is used internally within their organization to recruit prospective volunteers and donors.

     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  18. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    What WOF is about (to my knowledge) is simply about seeing the ways the Lord empowers His people to be prepared to live in ways to help others in the Body of Christ...and this is not something that has been limited to WOF.

    There are others who've noted the necessity of Biblical Prosperity to doing the work of the Gospel.

    I’m reminded of India, as there was a book that was given to me by one of my friends in the Charismatic Movement—specifically, the part associated with movements such as the Brownsville Revival and “Fire School of Ministry” in Pensacola, Florida. For the name of the book, its called “Revolution in World Missions”

    Its the story of missionary statesman Dr. K.P. Yohannan , born in India and one of the leading men today in Missions Work…..and it was cool to witness how he experienced the world ..and what a difference it made to see the world through his eyes—from the villages of India to the shores of Europe and North America. For more info, one can go to his ministry known as “Gospel for Asia” ( ). It has been very insightful on the issue of missions and what often occurs in the East—especially as it relates to Indigenious Missionaries being the best kind to minister to others in their area and the realities in India many are often unaware of. …as the author of the book often discussed the issue of how those who see Biblical rosperity in the West working for them often neglect their responsibility to help in aiding those struggling in the East when God gives financial blessing..

    Something one of my brothers in Christ said—as his church supports Biblical Prosperity–was that his church helped to build an orphanage in Uganda for children “whose parents have abandoned them or have died from Aids or other diseases.” This was a group who was having supplies and food shipped in because they are in a remote region. Because of the cost of trucking in supplies, the cost to them has tripled. His church helped them buy a 10 acre plot of land upon which they could begin farming. They had eyed a much larger plot, 100 acres. The food they grew in the 10 acres was enough to meet their need and so they did not have to buy from the supply companies (for an additional savings). Because of their planting and investment they were able to raise the funds for the purchase of the 100 acre lot themselves.

    With the food grown on this small farm they will be able to sell it back to the supply company and actually see a profit from it. It is but a very, very small corner of Uganda, but there is a glimmer of the prosperity that, yes, shows it can be preached. And as others have been excited to see how many of the economies there have been built up so that those Christians/Non-Christians alike suffering in poverty can better themselves like we do in the West, its interesting to consider the dynamic of poverty.
     
  19. andreha

    andreha Senior Contributor

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    So it's a case of "Don't try and confuse me with the truth - I can has argyoomint! :argh: "
     
  20. Faulty

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    It's also a case where most against it were once immersed in it for many years. It's not a matter of not listening about it, it's already knowing it and been there, done that with rejecting it for many reasons.
     
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