K. Hagin & God allowing or causing sickness

Gxg (G²)

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Rather than just a hand-out, people need a hand-up. I have often thought that this is one of the reasons that the prosperity message caught on with such vigour among the African American church. Historically, this community has been economically disadvantaged. The message of a God who empowers His people to prosper is a powerful draw to those that know what it means to truly struggle financially day to day.

I would note also, that the so-called father of the modern WOF movement, Kenneth Hagin, did not come from the affluent coastal areas of the United States, where white wealth is/was concentrated. He came from the poor areas of the southern midwest, where poeple of all colors by and large lived in rather abject poverty, from the time of the dust bowl. This is the crucible of struggle that produced the faith message, and motivated this man to believe God for His promises to be manifested in His life..

On the fascinating point you brought up concerning how Hagin came from poor areas growing up, something that came to my mind was how it seems interesting that people in the Charismatic movement/its many branches all have differing responses to economic situations. For there are many others who came from the same backgrounds as Hagin did....and yet their emotional/spiritual responses were radically different than others.

For more information, did you hear recently of the minister who was killed in a snake handling church? For more, one can go to 'Serpent-Handling' West Virginia Pastor Dies From Snake Bite


Seeing it, it made me think that there are times you see people do certain things and wonder "No surprise as to why alot of folks think Christians are tripping"....for after I heard this story from my sister, I don't know who I feel more sorry for: The victim or the snake who'll be demonized/take the fall when folks should have known the snake was probably warning folks he was not cool before he snapped.



But when processing the situation, I wanted to see first hand why people did as they did...and it was interesting to see how for them it was always a matter of wanting to demonstrate faith in the Lord.

For more on sharing why others handle snakes the way they do:






Obvious is the case that the Lord would not support what they did ...for while Jesus was in the wilderness (Matthew 4), he was tempted by Satan to display his power as the Son of God in various ways so that the people might believe. But Jesus rejected the method of tempting God by doing outrageous things to attract attention, like falling off the highest point of the Temple and having angels catch him...and the same would go for snake handling, as the verse in Mark 16:16-17 that snake handlers often cite was prophecy that was fulfilled in Acts 28:3 when the Apostle Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake and was miraculously spared (as he wasn't trying to be like the Crocodile Hunter and get bitten intentionally :) ).

Moreover, as there wasn't as much access to medical technology as is present today, having to rely more so on the Power of the Lord when only that was available gives more reason as to why picking up snakes/not being harmed had more relevance for believers then. If on the Mission field where similar circumstances occur, of course, that's another matter....
smile.png


And for others to assume that ALL Cases of handling snakes without fear is akin to the extremes found in churches doing so frequently would be error.....(in the same way people assume the extremes done in the name of Biblical prosperity are reflective of all in WOF and therefore conclude all in WOF teaching prosperity need to be condemned).​

But even for churches supporting snake handling despite what the scriptures said, I thought back on something I studied from one of my classes on Anthropology....for it was mentioned that one of the key reasons behind snake handling, crazy as it is, is the economics.​

Christian serpent handling, also known as the holiness movement, found a genesis in the founder of it, George Went Hensley...a man who began to practice the handling of snakes while still in the Church of God in Cleveland, Tennessee around 1909. The Church became aware of his practices and they repudiated him, taking steps to make sure that snake handling was prohibited in their church. Hensley then started his own holiness movement church in the 1920s. Other related serpent handling churches followed. What's interesting to consider is how many in anthropology have noted that those often into snake handling are located in areas where there is IMMENSE poverty. The people who joined the holiness churches early on were mostly rural coal miners, mill workers, factory workers and farmers of Scottish, Irish and English descent.​

Due to the poverty levels and extremes others live in---alongside having a lack of access to Biblical education---people may turn to snake handling and drinking poison as a means of making themselves feel confident in handling harsh situations. Their faith has been unshaken even when bitten, in fact they consider this an opportunity to prove that God is with them if they survive the bite. Many who used to do so actually walked away from it all in time as they were able to find jobs and grow in their economic status.......being able to go outside of where they were once limited to. For displacement from rural values and economic devestation may lead to differing behavioral patterns.​

Of course, it's not always the case that people for snake handling come from poor backgrounds. As said best in Snake Handlers Hang On in Appalachian Churches:
Serpent handling is always controversial and in many areas illegal, yet it shows no signs of disappearing from its traditional home in Appalachia, the mountainous regions of the Southeastern United States stretching from Georgia to Pennsylvani Junior G. McCormick is a serpent-handling pastor from Georgia. He explains that, for him, handling snakes is simply following the gospel to the letter. "Other folks don't do this because their churches don't believe, or it's just something they're scared of," he said. "They come to that scripture but want to jump over that part because it's a deadly thing."


(Practitioners, or self-described sign-followers, prefer the term serpent-handling to snake-handling noting that they incorporate poisonous reptiles not common snakes into religious worship.)

The practice began in the early 1900s. Its popularity has waxed and waned through the years. According to Ralph Hood, a professor of social psychology and the psychology of religion at the University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, serpent handling is currently at a fairly low ebb of popularity. Such fluctuations are characteristic of a faith that persists throughout Appalachia.

The perception that communities that practice serpent-handling church services are poor, isolated rural areas is simply no longer accurate, according to Hood.

"Historically that's where it emerged, but that's no longer the case," said Hood. "Some of these churches are near cities like Atlanta, Georgia, or Middlesboro, Kentucky—and the middle Appalachian region itself is less rural than it used to be. Serpent handling is no longer restricted to miners."
While a number of churches with small congregations around a dozen members survive throughout the heart of Appalachia, the faith is also practiced in adjacent states of Ohio and Alabama.
For places to go for understanding as to why people do as they do, one can go here to the following:​

That said, the way that Hagin sought to handle himself...as well as handling those who took what the Lord gave him and went to extremes with it....it's interesting that his background in impoverishment didn't cause him to try expressing faith in ways that were damaging like others did. He was about seeking to be prosperous, yet he understood ways to go about it in a reasonable manner....and even with others who took what he did the wrong way, part of being compassionate is recognizing why it may be that others can respond wrongly as they may when doing many things that are not necessary.​

Hope that made sense as to what I was trying to convey.​
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Have you ever in life encountered a "WoF" church that actually preaches a slot-machine Gospel? I know there there are plenty of non-WoF churches here in South Africa that have lost the plot altogether. But,I have no idea if there are apostate churches in the US that ignores the Word, and just label themselves WoF to entrap people?

Growing up in the WOF movement and seeing a alot of the good and bad, those that were slot-machine churches were the ones that healthy WOF churches would warn about and simply encourage others to not support. The same would go with what was seen on many of the Praise-A-Thons when it came to asking for financial giving in manners Dad Hagin was never for.
 
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sk8Joyful

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Oh,
that we would all come to a greater revelation of the Truth

that we are to be known as disciples of Jesus Christ by our Love for one another.
except that's not, what God said. Jesus said: LOVE one another AS I also love you.

the truth: known as disciples of Jesus Christ... by Jesus :angel: Love for one :hug: another.

Where in CF is this clearly evidenced?
and
where is a 'wof'-church where this is evidenced?

Until I find that, I am staying right at home.
 
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Seeking Him

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I could not believe the way Word of Faith leader Paul Crouch was saying how tithing is part of a New Covenant law the other night, all while he said to tithe to their ministry, all while he used old Covenant verses to do this, it was an embarressment for sure. Any astute Bible student would have to lol when they heard the text manipulation.:)
 
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Faulty

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Speaking of Hagin (sort of), they still broadcast his sermons in a program called 'RHEMA for Today', as I'm sure many of you know.

Yesterday, I listened to all 5 parts they released for a sermon called "Healing: How to Receive it to Keep it".

It was surreal to hear him claiming his "complete healing" of the heart condition that ended up killing him. Honestly, I ended up more than a bit sad and depressed when I pondered not only the irony of what I was hearing, but what must have gone through his mind when he was dying, realizing he had never been healed after all.
 
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sk8Joyful

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It was surreal to hear him claiming his "complete healing" of the heart condition that ended up killing him.
Honestly, I ended up more than a bit sad and depressed
when I pondered not only the irony of what I was hearing,
but what must have gone through his mind when he was dying,
realizing he had never been healed after all.
Hi there,
True tho that may be, you can not with any certainty say that. Why?

For instance, when you get invaded with a bacteria, your Immune system
might develop the Antibodies necessary to protect you from that SAME critter in the future.
The same is not true of virri, as they mutate too fast.

For example, Hagin could well have healed of SOME sort of heart-problem in his youth, &
yet either got it again, from yet a different ^_^ cause, or another issue.

So unless (like Ingo Swann, etc: very skilled & experienced in CLAIRVOYANCE plus RV),
you don't really have a clue ;) as to what went on inside Hagins' mind, & body,
nor can you for sure say that about yourself :wave:
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I guess the fact that Lazarus evenatually died means that Jesus never really raised him from the dead...
I guess the fact that everyone eventually dies proves there is no healing at all...
I guess Jesus lied and there is no such thing as healing... since everyone dies eventually.
I guess your healing is only "real" if you never die.


There is something wrong with this logic.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I guess the fact that Lazarus evenatually died means that Jesus never really raised him from the dead...
I guess the fact that everyone eventually dies proves there is no healing at all...
I guess Jesus lied and there is no such thing as healing... since everyone dies eventually.
I guess your healing is only "real" if you never die.


There is something wrong with this logic.

Healing is so complex....
 
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sk8Joyful

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Easy G (G²);60902541 said:
Healing is so complex....
Healing is easy for God created us this way, and
when we are allowed :thumbsup: to heal as God created us, it happens naturally.

It's people who make it complex, because -
1. Too many don't want to heal for 2ndary gains: attention, pity, money
&
2. Too many want to make their $living$, off the sick.
How that works: "This (whatever) is sooo complicated,
we have no cure. But we have some nice drugs,
that you can take for the rest ^_^ of your life.
(Problem is, those drugs will screw up your body's biochemistry so bad) so
we need to manage your side-effects" (blue-part, they don't tell you straight,
as any half-thinking person would realize it for the trap it is,
aside ignoring original condition), & both they dare call the practice... of medicine. oy vey! :doh:
 
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FoundInGrace

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Easy G (G²);60902541 said:
Healing is so complex....

its not really if you leave it in Gods very powerful and loving hands
God either heals or He doesnt in any given situation

if He heals we praise Him
if He doesnt we praise Him

Getting healed physically should not be our focus
The wonder of who He is, regardless of our personal circumstances should be
 
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