K. Hagin & God allowing or causing sickness

[rockytopva]

You would have to ask them my friend. I personally don't listen to anyone that demands "tithes and "faith seeds" to their ministry", as you put it.

Now it is true, that some have latched onto the faith movement with the intent to make merchandise of people. No doubt about that. This however, is not limited to WOF.

Why is it that WOF critics are so quick to throw reasonable discussion/debate of the Word out the window, and resort to name calling, and demeaning of others?

Peace...

If I have ever had anyone hateful to me... It is out of the WOF forum... I have been reported, name called, falsely accused, had false witness bore against me... All out of the WOF forum.

 

[TasManOfGod]

If I have ever had anyone hateful to me... It is out of the WOF forum... I have been reported, name called, falsely accused, had false witness bore against me... All out of the WOF forum.

Were you obeying the rules in the WoF forum?

 

[dkbwarrior]

The WOF message is the only branch of christianity that is exploding outside of the US in the thrid world. There have been multiple articles written about it, and many of the mainline and older established churches, as well as the WOF critics are completely confused by the movement of world christianity towards WOF beliefs. Specially in light of the fact that some of these groups and denominations have had missionaries in these countries for decades, and even generations without much success. A handfull of salvations here and there, but no mass conversions. Yet mass conversions is the name of the game for WOF, and it is the fastest growing and largest group of Protestants in the third world today.

I remember that 20 years ago the main argument of the WOF critic was that it was an American phenomenon, that could only occur here, and would never work in the third world. This to them, was proof positive that their criticism of WOF was justified. Since then, whole countries, (pluralities and/or majorities) have come to saving knowledge of Christ through the spread of the WOF message, to the absolute consternation of the ciritcs. They cannot understand it. Yet it has happened, and continues to happen.

Why? Because the gospel to the poor is a powerful thing. When you cannot feed your family, or have a roof over your head, or even have clean drinking water, a God who has provided for and cares about your physical well being, and who has provided promises of prosperity to that end, is a God worth serving. These people need to believe in a God who prospers. The argument that Bob has put forth, is simply a symtom of those that do not need to believe in a God who prospers. They have already taken care of themselves, so they don't need to believe the promises of God.

By the way, I am not guessing on my numbers. I got these numbers from the Encylopedia of Pentecostal and Charismatic Moves. Or even better yet, read the article Gospel Riches at Gospel Riches | Christianity Today. It is an article that appeared in Christianity Today, which as you probably know, is critical of the prosperity teaching, yet it gives the staggering numbers. Of course they are talking about how bad it is, and discussing what can they do to stop the spread of the "health and wealth" message, but the numbers confirm the trend. 90% of Pentecostals in many of those areas identify with the WOF message. Not only that, but it is the only form of Christianity that is outpacing the growth of Islam in the African continent. I love this particular quote from the article:

"Similar scenes unfold every day in countless venues throughout sub-Saharan Africa, where prosperity-tinged Pentecostalism is growing faster not just than other strands of Christianity, but than all religious groups, including Islam."

Not that I don't think there are abuses in the movement. Of course there are. To say different is to be just plain blind. But that has been and always will be the case when revelation is being poured out, and the annointing is present on corruptible flesh. Do some people say and do things that are over the edge? Do some people fall off into the ditch, or go to far? Do some people get caught up in greed, rather than promoting the kingdom? You bet, and yes to all three. But that doesn't negate the movement, nor the purpose that God has in promoting prosperity. All movements have their black sheep, because God uses men who live in a corrupted world and are encased in corrupted flesh to do His purposes. But God is able to judge His own sevants, He doesn't need us to help Him, and these excesses, while troubling and sometimes confusing, don't represent the real message.

Now, the following is just my personal opinion, but I think it is well founded based upon what I have observed and been a part of during my christian walk. I believe that the main purpose behind the "prosperity movement" was/is twofold:

1. To gather wealth together from among the Western Church for the establishment of the major christian media networks and ministries that are today reaching nearly every corner of the globe with the gospel
2. To bring the gospel to the poor, and the promises of provision to the masses of the world outside the West, which are primarily impoverished, and need to see a God who cares about their physical plight, and in whom saving faith can be ignighted by giving them promises that they need to believe, not only for themselves, but for their families and nations

And the movement has succeeded, and is continuing to succeed in both of these goals, in spite of the loud voices of the critics and accusers. Their loud braying and complaining often brings to mind this verse of scripture:

34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
-Acts 5:34-35, 38-39

I've shown you empirically that the living vibrant and growing church outside of the west is the WOF movement. It is only here in the west that people think they or the government can meet their needs and therefore do not feel any need to believe the promises of God regarding their physical circumstance.

Not only that, but subjectively, from my experience, I have found that by and far the people that are the most vociferous and adamant in their opposition to the promises of God are those that are relatively well off themselves. They seem to feel that because they have what they need already, and were able to attain that status without believing the promises of God, that others should "earn it" like they did, or take their handouts, and therefore they should discourage others from believing the promises of God for themsleves. It is a completely self centered and selfish position to take, IMHO; and such a thought process is only enabled by virtue of ones status and postion of being born in the afluent west. It is the exact opposite of the gospel to the poor that Jesus came to teach.

But don't take my word for it. Here is an excellent post by HolySpiritWOF where he gives examples of the anti-WOF critics conceding the fact that WOF is the fastest growing Christian group in the world today:

2 extremely powerful posts dkbwarrior.... EVERY word.... and loved the article you cited...

*Gospel Riches at http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...uly/12.22.html.



found some other comparable quotes from articles.... all anti-wof.... declaring the same point....

1. wof fastest growing branch....
wikipedia
"within the Christian sphere, the Word of Faith movement is the fastest growing branch of Pentecostal Christianity."[17]


2. The Word-Faith Movement*
By Gary E. Gilley
The fastest growing segment of professing Christianity today is the Word-Faith Movement, also known as the Positive Confession or simply "Faith" movement.


3. Word-Faith Movement (Prosperity Doctrine/Positive Confession)
by Sandy Simpson for the Apologetics Coordination Team

BRIEF HISTORY Word-Faith is the fastest-growing movement within the professing church. It has involved two distinct but closely related factions: the Peale/Schuller Positive/Possibility thinkers, with their roots in New Thought, and the Hagin/Copeland Positive Confession and Word-Faith groups, which have their roots in E.W. Kenyon, William Branham, and the Manifest Sons of God/Latter Rain Movement. (Charismatic Chaos , p. 281).


4. Revivalism and Fraudulent Faith

March 29, 2010 Kent Brandenburg for Jack Hammer

You may have heard of the modern “word of faith” movement. It might be the fastest growing segment of professing Christianity today.

Hope this helps!

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

If I have ever had anyone hateful to me... It is out of the WOF forum... I have been reported, name called, falsely accused, had false witness bore against me... All out of the WOF forum.

Have I done any of that to you?

Peace...

 

[rockytopva]

Have I done any of that to you?

Peace...

No sir.... You have behaved your self both as a Christian and a gentlemen... And it was thoroughly appreciated.. Thank you!

 

[TasManOfGod]

nice post dk
(I liked it the first time too )

 

[ARBITER01]

The WOF message is the only branch of christianity that is exploding outside of the US in the thrid world.

Your whole statement is wrong.

Wof is not a denomination, it is a teaching movement. It has never been a denomination since it's inception. It is a loose bunch of people who promote their own teachings, whether they align with hagin or anyone else is completely up to them.

Pentecostalism on the other hand, is documented very well, and is the defacto branch of Christianity growing in third world countries,..

Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[FoundInGrace]

there are teachings the bible says will tickle the ears and tap into our own selfish desires
wof teaching is very good at doing that so it is not surprising the poor and needy are being deceived in droves in the third world by the lure of riches

 

[TasManOfGod]

Your whole statement is wrong.

Wof is not a denomination, it is a teaching movement. It has never been a denomination since it's inception. It is a loose bunch of people who promote their own teachings, whether they align with hagin or anyone else is completely up to them.

Pentecostalism on the other hand, is documented very well, and is the defacto branch of Christianity growing in third world countries,..

Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hardly a concise portrayal of latter bay Pentecostalism when Kenneth Hagin or Word of Faith are not even mentioned in the whole discourse

 

[ARBITER01]

Hardly a concise portrayal of latter bay Pentecostalism when Kenneth Hagin or Word of Faith are not even mentioned in the whole diatribe

Well I'm sorry, but there is no way to know who is actually a wof adherent and who isn't within denominations. Being a teaching type movement, it can be associated at various levels with any denomination out there, but by itself, it is unaccountable.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Well I'm sorry, but there is no way to know who is actually a wof adherent and who isn't within denominations. Being a teaching type movement, it can be associated at various levels with any denomination out there, but by itself, it is unaccountable.

Isn't it so very convenient not to know who somebody "belongs to" except when you want to criticise them?

 

[ARBITER01]

Isn't it so very convenient not to know who somebody "belongs to" except when you want to criticise them?

Is it criticism or just a truth you don't like hearing?

How is one to account for who is wof and not when your movement has no denominational basis and established set of beliefs?

 

[TasManOfGod]

Is it criticism or just a truth you don't like hearing?

How is one to account for who is wof and not when your movement has no denominational basis and established set of beliefs?

WoF have a definite set of beliefs and many establish ministries based on those beliefs. To infer that WoF is insignificant as far as Christian activity in the 20/21 century is concerned shows an extreme lack of understanding at best and rampant bias at worse

 

[ARBITER01]

WoF have a definite set of beliefs and many establish ministries based on those beliefs. To infer that WoF is insignificant as far as Christian activity in the 20/21 century is concerned shows an extreme lack of understanding at best and rampant bias at worse

Hey friend, I think you are letting "your" bias get the best of you.

There is no accounting for how many folks are actually wof in all of the Christian denominations we have, and this is because you guys have refused to establish yourself as a formal denomination with bylaws, beliefs, and such.

On the other hand, we can ascertain who is pentecostal, catholic, and such, quite easily.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Only God knows how many. What is not acceptable is the inference that WoF have played an insignificant part in shaping the Christian world of today irrespective if you can identify who believes what. Personally I would not consult a secular source for information on spiritual matters for the very reason that is obvious here.

 

[Biblicist]

The WOF message is the only branch of christianity that is exploding outside of the US in the thrid world.

Even though I would like to see some figures on this, I doubt if the wof message has made any impact in mainland China as the Full Gospel movement has suffered greatly due to the excesses of western varieties of Pentecostalism. My own church is heavily involved within many parts of East Asia and one of my contacts who regularly travels into China has mentioned that the Full Gospel has had a bad name for several decades due mainly to the wof and other similar movements.

Another one of our senior leaders has had to recently spend some time with a few groups in mainland China trying to explain that the Full Gospel is not about wof excesses though there were other issues as well which went beyond just the wof movement.
One of the more unfortunate outcomes of the many excesses with the wof movement, is that it may have pushed away many Pentecostals and Charismatics from fully embracing the blessings that are available to us. Even though I can look at the wof movement along with the latter-rain and narzies with some understanding which allows me to remain unaffected by their practices, I can still appreciate why many have been repelled by what they have seen.

Undoubtedly the wof movement would seem attractive to many Third World cultures much the same as the post WWII cargo cult was to many Pacific Islanders; unfortunately I have heard many testimonies as to the destruction that has been caused by wof distinctives in other areas outside of mainland China.

But still, it would be interesting to know just how strong this movement is within many Third Word countries though we can definitely leave China out of the equation. Even though there are many sizable wof congregations within Third World countries, I wonder if they are being run by individuals with strong personalities who are simply well able to manipulate the needs of those around them.

 

[andreha]

there are teachings the bible says will tickle the ears and tap into our own selfish desires
wof teaching is very good at doing that so it is not surprising the poor and needy are being deceived in droves in the third world by the lure of riches

The thing is, we folks believe in following the Lord's will - and to be willing to give up everything. The Lord doesn't play favourites - but He does provide for those who genuinely do His will. That said, I know that no one denomination / faith group has the monopoly on UN-biblical teaching. If I had to walk into a WoF church and they preached that you simply ignore God and He overwhelms you with riches - they'd never see me again.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Your whole statement is wrong.

Wof is not a denomination, it is a teaching movement. It has never been a denomination since it's inception. It is a loose bunch of people who promote their own teachings, whether they align with hagin or anyone else is completely up to them.

I agree 100%. Much like the charismatic movement, it crosses denomonational lines. I have said the same myself. I would also add, that this is prima faciae evidence of a true move of God. It is how the Spirit operates. Denominations are man made, and come after the Spirit has already moved, usually to capture and control the move. Historically, it has been the begininning of the departure of the Spirit of God from the group.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

The thing is, we folks believe in following the Lord's will - and to be willing to give up everything. The Lord doesn't play favourites - but He does provide for those who genuinely do His will. That said, I know that no one denomination / faith group has the monopoly on UN-biblical teaching. If I had to walk into a WoF church and they preached that you simply ignore God and He overwhelms you with riches - they'd never see me again.

Quite true.

Peace...

 

[FoundInGrace]

The thing is, we folks believe in following the Lord's will - and to be willing to give up everything. The Lord doesn't play favourites - but He does provide for those who genuinely do His will. That said, I know that no one denomination / faith group has the monopoly on UN-biblical teaching. If I had to walk into a WoF church and they preached that you simply ignore God and He overwhelms you with riches - they'd never see me again.

but wof do tend to ignore God and trust in their own ability to positively confess and harness faith to bring them health and wealth. health and wealth is their god not God imho