K. Hagin & God allowing or causing sickness

[TasManOfGod]

but wof do tend to ignore God and trust in their own ability to positively confess and harness faith to bring them health and wealth. health and wealth is their god not God imho

Can you cite the evidence that you collected to come to that conclusion?

 

[andreha]

but wof do tend to ignore God and trust in their own ability to positively confess and harness faith to bring them health and wealth. health and wealth is their god not God imho

I'd run from any church like that. The above is certainly not what anyone if the WoF section of CF believes...

 

[Biblicist]

Can you cite the evidence that you collected to come to that conclusion?

Even though I’m jumping into a question that you’ve addressed to FoundInGrace, we only have to switch on a satellite TV channel to see the man centredness of many wof proponents. I guess FoundInGrace is simply restating the position that has been held by many over the decades in that wof distinctives may appear to have a form of spirituality but they are merely the result of human greed and manipulation. Leaving aside the distinctives of the wof movement and at the risk of sounding somewhat condescending, there is still a lot of good stuff that goes on within the lives of many wof believers but we simply see the distinctives of the wof movement as being repugnant.

I appreciate that you would be understandably repulsed by my statements but they simply reflect the massive divide that exists between wof and classic Pentecostal theology and of course forums such as these will discuss these matters undoubtedly until the Lord returns.

 

[TasManOfGod]

You just know that WoF are doing things right when it comes under so much unsubstantiated, ill-founded condemnation

 

[Biblicist]

You just know that WoF are doing things right when it comes under so much unsubstantiated, ill-founded condemnation

I think that the question is not now so much an issue of right or wrong but with how classic-Pentecostals have been horrified with the many well documented antics of those within the wof movement and I should also add in the latter-rain movement along with the narzies, which tend to become somewhat of a mix at times.

You could well respond by saying that these charlatans as many of us would call them are merely a small proportion of the wof movement but to us they seem to be the majority and that they also reflect traditional wof distinctives. Again this is not a wild unsubstantiated statement but merely a recapping of the history of thought within classic-Pentecostalism.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I see the only greed in the church as pertaining to those folk who hold onto their worldly obtained riches and and are not willing to allow God to bless them financially and accordingly return God's share to do His will in the costly job of world evangelism.

 

[TasManOfGod]

I think that the question is not now so much an issue of right or wrong but with how classic-Pentecostals have been horrified with the many well documented antics of those within the wof movement and I should also add in the latter-rain movement along with the narzies, which tend to become somewhat of a mix at times.

You could well respond by saying that these charlatans as many of us would call them are merely a small proportion of the wof movement but to us they seem to be the majority and that they also reflect traditional wof distinctives. Again this is not a wild unsubstantiated statement but merely a recapping of the history of thought within classic-Pentecostalism.

Could you please state the people you are talking about and confirm if you would their WoF status and also show us evidence of the fact that you have been in contact with them and explained your displeasure with their doctine . And what has been their reply?

 

[Biblicist]

I see the only greed in the church as pertaining to those folk who hold onto their worldly obtained riches and and are not willing to allow God to bless them financially and accordingly return God's share to do His will in the costly job of world evangelism.

Sadly I have seen too much greed over the years where many within the ministry have selfishly manipulated people for their own ends – and this can be found within every corner of the church, as such it is hardly unique to the wof movement.

What really upsets us is when we watch so-called ministries manipulate individuals into giving into some form of ‘seed-faith’ where they know that many well meaning and good intentioned people will be easily conned into giving up sizable amounts of their hard earned wages. All too often it goes into supporting the lavish lifestyles of the many wof celebrities as they fly around the world in their private jets moving from luxury home to home.

Again, greed is not unique to the wof movement though in my opinion the senior practitioners of this movement have seemingly made it an art form that even seems to surpasses the skills of many within Wall Street.


PS. I’m not used to posting in real time!

 

[Biblicist]

Could you please state the people you are talking about and confirm if you would their WoF statas and also show us evidence of the fact that you have been in contact with them and explained your displeasure with their doctine . And what has been their reply?

I was waiting for your understandable question but need I repeat the many hundreds of thousands of pages that have been written about the excesses of those within the wof movement over the years and on this site as well...maybe I’ve had a long week but I really can’t muster the strength to detail what has been open to us all for decades.

As for contacting these people, heck, that would be a full time job but when I release my website later this year I will certainly be referring to key statements that have been made by contemporary wof, latter-rain and narzie celebrities but I don’t really wish to get too sidetracked with them.

I suppose I could refer to Creflo Dollar who was charged this week with attempting to strangle his daughter. I think that I came across this article in Charisma magazine but as he was a wof celebrity I didn’t see it as being anything out of the ordinary – maybe I could have reworded this a bit differently but I guess that you see my point to a degree.

If anyone has some links to discussions regarding issues that relate to any wof celebrities then I suppose that they could paste them here as it would save a fair amount of time.

 

[TasManOfGod]

It seems to me that you have become a self appointed spokesperson for those who are contributing to a work of God that is actually doing something. The mere fact that it was seen on Television on the other side of the world means that it really is not for self benefit at all and that the "widows mite" may well have been the margin that got somebody saved. I am sure you or any of the other accusers of the brethren dont want to be judged in the same manner but maybe that is actually God's way

 

[dkbwarrior]

Well I'm sorry, but there is no way to know who is actually a wof adherent and who isn't within denominations. Being a teaching type movement, it can be associated at various levels with any denomination out there, but by itself, it is unaccountable.

While this may be true to a certain extent, (that know one knows for sure, exactly how many identify with what beliefs); we can get a pretty good idea through research. Im willing to bet you didn't actually read the articles that I referenced. If you had, you would have seen that they way they came up with these numbers were through research polls, asking a handful of theological questions, such as if one believes that God will give those with faith fiancial blessing, or healing, etc. They also took into account the number of churches that teach what is considered by the critics to be the "Health and Wealth" gospel, and their membership. By doing this, they found, for instance, that nearly 90% of those that were self described Pentecostals in South Africa identified with the WOF message. This same held true for other third world countries where they did the research. Now, this doesn't prove that this is so everywhere, but it is a good indicator.

This of course, doesn't tell us how sophisticated such belief systems are, nor does it take into account ancillary doctrines such as BAJ, JDS, little gods, etc. But it does take into account the heart of the WOF message, which is that God honors His promises as found in the scriptures to those that have the faith that He will do so.

Of course, this belief annoys and angers most religiously minded folks, and legalistic and works based folks, to no end. It annoys them so much, (the idea that God would simply bless people by faith), that they feel the need to launch campaigns against it. Some get obsessed with it, and cannot leave it alone. They feel that it is their lifes work to force people to quit believing that it is that simple. They do not want people to simply believe God, and receive His promises. That really bugs them to no end.

More power to them. They may as well fight the wind.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

but wof do tend to ignore God

Really? I don't even know how to respond to this.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

but wof do tend to ignore God

I wonder why you guys are out here harrassing people all the time? I guess it is because nobody wants to post in your sub-forum? I have noticed that sometimes 10-14 days will go by without a post in the anti-faith forum.

Peace...

 

[Faulty]

I wonder why you guys are out here harrassing people all the time? I guess it is because nobody wants to post in your sub-forum? I have noticed that sometimes 10-14 days will go by without a post in the anti-faith forum.

Peace...

Anti-faith forum? A wee bit judgmental before the morning coffee?

 

[dkbwarrior]

Anti-faith forum? A wee bit judgmental before the morning coffee?

Sorry, just responding in kind. My pride got the better of me....



Its been three days right now, since someone posted in that forum. (I just checked outta curiousity).

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

I think that the question is not now so much an issue of right or wrong but with how classic-Pentecostals have been horrified with the many well documented antics of those within the wof movement and I should also add in the latter-rain movement along with the narzies, which tend to become somewhat of a mix at times.

You could well respond by saying that these charlatans as many of us would call them are merely a small proportion of the wof movement but to us they seem to be the majority and that they also reflect traditional wof distinctives. Again this is not a wild unsubstantiated statement but merely a recapping of the history of thought within classic-Pentecostalism.

As the "classic" Jews were horrified by the apostles. This is not new. Nor is it new that the masses are running to the promises of God by faith, and away from them. Nor is it new that the "classic" leaders are getting angrier and angrier about it. All this has historical precedent. There is nothing new under the sun.

This is a true statement, mark my words: If "classic" Pentecostals want to survive, they will stop fighting the work of God, and embrace what He is doing through the WOF movement. This would give them a position of authority to speak to those things that they see as extremes, excesses, and error, from the inside. Standing on the outside, making fun of, criticizing, and demeaning a move as massive as this one is, will only result in irrelevance to those who do so, and the departure of the Spirit of God from their midst for good.

Peace...

 

[Biblicist]

It seems to me that you have become a self appointed spokesperson for those who are contributing to a work of God that is actually doing something. The mere fact that it was seen on Television on the other side of the world means that it really is not for self benefit at all and that the "widows mite" may well have been the margin that got somebody saved. I am sure you or any of the other accusers of the brethren dont want to be judged in the same manner but maybe that is actually God's way

I’m hardly trying to be a self appointed spokesman as I was merely trying to restate the opinions of the wof movement that are held by many classic-Pentecostals in particular. I could certainly mention numerous names of the many eccentric ministries that are under the banner of the wof movement but this would of course open up a very dangerous and unwieldy can of worms that would benefit absolutely no one.

I also mentioned that greed and selfish gain is not the sole domain of the wof movement as I have seen it all too frequently even in my own circles; my point being with all this is that most of those who are in my own circles tend to be more discreet with their greed and selfishness whereas the wof movement seems to have made a virtual science out of it.

Of course this does not help our interactions on this question either so maybe I should simply bow out of it altogether and the topic itself is probably not all that well suited to a public forum.

 

[Biblicist]

As the "classic" Jews were horrified by the apostles. This is not new. Nor is it new that the masses are running to the promises of God by faith, and away from them. Nor is it new that the "classic" leaders are getting angrier and angrier about it. All this has historical precedent. There is nothing new under the sun.

This is a true statement, mark my words: If "classic" Pentecostals want to survive, they will stop fighting the work of God, and embrace what He is doing through the WOF movement. This would give them a position of authority to speak to those things that they see as extremes, excesses, and error, from the inside. Standing on the outside, making fun of, criticizing, and demeaning a move as massive as this one is, will only result in irrelevance to those who do so, and the departure of the Spirit of God from their midst for good.

Peace...

Even though I just mentioned to TasmanOfGod that it would be wise for me to withdraw from this topic, I think that I should reply to your post.

When it comes to the survivability of classic-Pentecostalism, this is now probably something of the past as the AoG here in Australia has broadly adopted many of the distinctives of both the wof and latter-rain movements which coincidentally saw itself changing its name from the AoG to the ACC.

For all I know the USAoG may not even be in fellowship with the AAoG and essentially the AoG here in Australia is essentially dead and buried – thank you to the wof and latter-rain movements for the destruction of the AoG here in Australia, at best it could probably call itself maybe evangelical if that and as for the power of God being seen within its midst this has become a thing of the past.

So as you can see, I have little love for the destructive nature of the wof movement which seems to be its legacy throughout the world. As you can probably understand, it would be wise for me to simply leave you chaps to yourselves on this issue – the whole thing simply breaks my heart.

 

[dkbwarrior]

So as you can see, I have little love for the destructive nature of the wof movement which seems to be its legacy throughout the world.

I did a quick google of the Assemblies of God Australia and found that it is the largest Pentecostal denomination in Austrialia. Rather than be destructive, the legacy of WOF seems to be the same in Australia as it is in the rest of the world, growth and conversion.

This may be destructive to you, because it is outside of the "classic" Pentecostal box that you have placed God into, but to me it is the fulfillment of the great commission.

Peace...

 

[Seeking Him]

there are teachings the bible says will tickle the ears and tap into our own selfish desires
wof teaching is very good at doing that so it is not surprising the poor and needy are being deceived in droves in the third world by the lure of riches

1 Timothy 6, is the strongest case against this doctrine, that was around even in Paul's day. He says in 6:3, this teaching goes against the doctrine of Christ, those who turn the gospel into a money makinf business in 6:5, as he told Timothy, what you said, thjat it lures people from the faith, feeding the flesh. He told Timothy to flee this teraching. SH.


1 Timothy 6:5 AMPLIFIEDAnd protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw


Those who teach the seed magic teaching, act like they have a "special insight"


AMPLIFIED 6:20 O Timothy, guard and keep the deposit entrusted [to you]! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination.