Justification by Faith Defended!

[Phil 1:21]

Ah yes, the ol' "They were never saved to begin with" defense.

Actually, Jesus DOES say that, but you have to remove the blinders to see it, and it really is pretty clear if you care to look at the post I directed you too, the one it seems you choose to ignore, and not discuss because you choose the blinders over the truth...oh, well.

You ask for explanation, you get it, and then you ignore it.

I'm not digging through a 563-post thread to try to find whatever point it is you're attempting to make. Below is the post of mine you quoted. If it's "pretty clear" you should be able to quote scripture and show it.

Maybe you could point out where, in context, any of these scriptures says we can lose our salvation. The problem with copying and pasting lists of verses you find on Google searches is that they often don't say what you want them to say.

Aaaaaand go...

 

[redleghunter]

When? When they first believed, obeyed, and became Christians, or when they chose to leave the Faith and return to their brand of worldliness, Judaism?

If the former: They trusted in Jesus Christ
If the latter: They trusted in something other than Jesus Christ

I believe the parable of the soils and parable of the wheat and tares come to mind here.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Honestly, I disagree with the idea that a saved, born again and sealed believer who has become a new creation in Christ, has passed from death to life and no longer is under the wrath of God nor any condemnation, needs to “be entangled again in a yoke of bondage.”

Threats of God losing His adopted, purchased child, whom He has promised He will never lose, leave or forsake nor cast away, do not encourage love or obedience, only despair.

The “strength of sin” is the Law, not grace. And He who has been forgiven much loves much. We “rest” in Christ and we serve Him out of love, not out of fear.

There are chastisements and perhaps a loss of heavenly reward mentioned for those who have been saved, nor should we forget that we will stand before Christ one day and it would be terrible to be ashamed because we failed to do anything in response to so great a salvation. We need not fear, however, that God will ever cast His children into Hell.

Oh my.
Whoever said God will cast HIS CHILDREN into hell?!

God's children are going to heaven...

We do, however have to be children of His when we die.

Romans 8:11-17
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

From the above we can see:

1. The spirit has to be dwelling in us to be saved since it's by this Spirit that we are brought to life.

2. If we live by the flesh we will die, like Adam and Eve.

3. If we put to death the deeds of the body, we will live.

4. Those who ARE BEING led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

5. We must hold on To Christ even through hard times so that we may be glorified with Him. (saved at the end.)

 

[Phil 1:21]

LOL, AKA the "That's not Christians" defense. Run into this one around every corner of NT scripture. Sometimes it makes one wonder just who the Christians in the NT are/were anyway?

Yeah, it's a real booger when people actually stick to scripture.

 

[amariselle]

We agree on how one is saved.
We don't agree on how one stays saved because I believe it's necessary to obey God and you won't confirm this, so really we don't know what you believe.

As I said, we do not agree on how one is saved. It is not correct to say otherwise when one creates a false dichotomy where there is none.

It is not Biblical to say that we are initially saved by Christ but then kept saved by works.

If we do not obey God, there is no way we will be saved.
1 John 3:18

The "obedience" required for salvation is to do "the will of the Father" and "work the works of God" by believing on the Son. (John 6)

1 John 3:18 is as follows:

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

This is sound instruction in discipleship and in spiritual maturity, addressed to "my little children". (Saved, born again, sealed believers).

 

[Kenny'sID]

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,

How could anyone put it any clearer?

Phil 1:21, what does that scripture mean to you? Can we or can we not lose salvation?

 

[GodsGrace101]

JOHN.3: = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Cf; ...
2THESS.4: = 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Scripture says salvation is forfeited by ceasing to believe in Jesus Christ or departing from the faith(= apostasy) or losing faith.(opposite of "kept the faith" is "lose the faith")
....... "I have kept the faith" or "I have kept believing" is not the same as "I have kept doing good works or kept the Law or kept obedience", even though faith produces good works and faithlessness produces evil-works.

Trying to define what are good works and evil works can be tricky. Those who have departed from the faith are those who are "forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods", ie enforcers of certain laws/commandments or good works, obedience or holiness.

If faith produces good works, as you've stated above and faithlessness produces evil works...

Then can we not say that it is necessary to produce good works to remain saved?

If we do NOT produce good works, doesn't it mean we are faithless?

Since salvation requires faith, doesn't it stand to reason that we must do good works to remain saved, which means that we have faith?

 

[redleghunter]

For starters. Just look at John 10. In verse 27 it says his sheep follow Him. So the condition of not being snatched out of his hand is if we are following Jesus. These are not lazy and sinful sheep Jesus is talking about here.

They follow Jesus because they hear His Voice. i.e. His calling.

After being saved by God's grace, doing good is not optional in regards to the salvation process.

I think I opined on the (1) joyful aspect of salvation and (2) it's hard work.

I have noticed many things in employment for almost 40 years. The best workers are always happy workers.

 

[Phil 1:21]

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,

How could anyone put it any clearer?

Phil 1:21, what does that scripture mean to you? Can we or can we not lose salvation?

Do you believe everyone in church, or who calls themselves a Christians is actually saved?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

 

[amariselle]

Oh my.
Whoever said God will cast HIS CHILDREN into hell?!

Those who say God will forsake His children and cut them off for not doing "good works" so that they can stay saved.

God's children are going to heaven...

I agree. No ifs, ands or buts.

We do, however have to be children of His when we die.

As all true, born again, sealed believers are. And they will never stop being His children. They are adopted and bought at the price of the precious Lamb of God Who will never cast a single one of them out. Ever.

Romans 8:11-17
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

From the above we can see:

1. The spirit has to be dwelling in us to be saved since it's by this Spirit that we are brought to life.

2. If we live by the flesh we will die, like Adam and Eve.

3. If we put to death the deeds of the body, we will live.

4. Those who ARE BEING led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

5. We must hold on To Christ even through hard times so that we may be glorified with Him. (saved at the end.)

We are saved all by the power of God and His faithfulness. Period. He is indeed the Author and Finisher of our faith.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I'm not digging through a 563-post thread to try to find whatever point it is you're attempting to make. Below is the post of mine you quoted. If it's "pretty clear" you should be able to quote scripture and show it.



Aaaaaand go...

the link was supposed to go right to the post, where does it take you?

Actually I tried the link and it took me right to the post I was wanting you to see...what's up?

 

[GodsGrace101]

No, but I know how to read them, in context, to see what they say. I mean, if you can find them on a Google search, you can read them too. (your sarcasm notwithstanding)

And not a single one of them state that someone can receive salvation and then lose it. Actually, most of them speak to whether or not someone is saved.

2 Peter 3:17 comes the closest to making your case but still falls short. He never states what our "secured position" is. (If you're not familiar with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, you may wish to study it before assuming Peter was talking about salvation).

Could you please reconcile 2 Peter 3:17 with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

Thanks.

And perhaps you'd like to explain this too:

2 Peter 2:20-23

 

[ladodgers6]

No one is justified through works of the Mosaic Law. To be Justified you give your life to Jesus, and for that you need to believe, then you follow Jesus as your Lord, and for that you need obedience and works.

We are not justified through OUR obedience or works. The only works that that can merit Justification before a Holy God, is the works of Christ. Read these passages and tell me what you think they mean?

Justified by Faith​

Galatians 2:15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 4: 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

 

[GodsGrace101]

I understand, we just have to weigh things out and then make our decisions.

On the Pharisees, what was it Christ said? something to the affect of do what they say not what they do.

Sorry to hear that, but at least you are aware of the truth, when you could be some poor soul looking for guidance and ready to grab the first thing that comes along. Still some like a good Church setting, and it can be daunting when they can't find that. You may have to settle for 79%

79%?? There are none around!

 

[GodsGrace101]

As I said, we do not agree on how one is saved. It is not correct to say otherwise when one creates a false dichotomy where there is none.

It is not Biblical to say that we are initially saved by Christ but then kept saved by works.



The "obedience" required for salvation is to do "the will of the Father" and "work the works of God" by believing on the Son. (John 6)

1 John 3:18 is as follows:

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

This is sound instruction in discipleship and in spiritual maturity, addressed to "my little children". (Saved, born again, sealed believers).

Correct. And the verse you posted says we are to love IN DEED, NOT in word or tongue.

IOW, put your deeds where your mouth is...
(modern lingo)

 

[ladodgers6]

I wonder if there are more than 0.01% of Christians that think we are not saved by Grace and not works -- "...by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— "

(I haven't yet met anyone claiming we are saved by our works even out of thousands of discussions. They must be rare.)

Of course, works are required of us -- to love others, including in deeds.

But, one could try to find these seemingly very rare individuals you may be trying to address, somewhere, and bring the gospel message to them! That would be a good thing. But have you found any?

All the time. Its called a legalistic approach to salvation. And its more common that you think. They say they believe we are saved by Grace. But then add the law to it. The Gospel is Free, it is not earned. For no sinner can earn it.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Could you please reconcile 2 Peter 3:17 with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

Thanks.

Let me ask you this: Do you understand what Paul is describing in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

And perhaps you'd like to explain this too:

2 Peter 2:20-23

Yeah, read the entire chapter and you'll see to whom Peter is referring.

 

[redleghunter]

When you make it all about grace and say salvation does not include works or holiness, then it can lead someone into thinking they can sin and still be saved.

This above seems to be the crux of your theology. I'm not saying it's incorrect. It's not. However, leaning too hard on this robs God of His Glory. So the solution is not to add to the requirements of salvation so folks don't think they can sin. It's a matter of doing what the apostles did. Preach the truth of the Grace of God, and then teach people what it looks like to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Whether in Ephesus 2,000 years ago or next Sunday when we sit in church, there were and are wheat with tares in the visible church.

Therefore, it is 'all about Grace.' God's Grace. He has not left us orphans.

The tightrope the apostles preached from ensured God's Glory and Sovereignty was not impugned, yet while admonishing those truly born again what service was required of them.

On the one hand they drove it home there was no way sinful man could redeem themselves and salvation is 100% God's gift of Grace. On the other hand they drove home just as hard what a redeemed believer looks like based on this Grace in a faith based on action.

And we see those souls who joyfully preached the Gospel and ministered to the brethren throughout the ages by giving their very own lives following our Master Jesus Christ...100% in God's Grace and 100% led by His Holy Spirit.

I commend you Jason for preaching we must live pure lives. We must, I agree. Why we must we cannot be anymore at odds I'm sorry to say.

 

[amariselle]

Correct. And the verse you posted says we are to love IN DEED, NOT in word or tongue.

IOW, put your deeds where your mouth is...
(modern lingo)

That verse is not an instruction on how to be saved or stay saved. It was written to already saved and sealed believers to instruct them as faithful disciples and in spiritual maturity.

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes true faith indeed produces works and what is true faith? True faith is believe in someone, and be obedient to what that person says, then surely there will be works.

We believe in Christ Jesus in who he is, and in what he has done. This is what saves the ungodly. There is no room for any of our works. And if you mix any of your works in the Gospel, then you have another Gospel, that Paul warned the Galatians, that is no gospel at all. Are we speaking of justification of sinner here. Not the sanctification of the believer. These are two distinct topics, but not separated.