Justification by Faith Defended!

[Bible Highlighter]

When you make holiness a requirement for salvation, you are likely going back to something similar to the erroneous "justified for salvation by the works of the Law".
....... The Jews thought they were justified for salvation by just obeying the Law. Holiness requirements for salvation is similar.
....... Our focus should be on Christ and the Cross, not on holiness or good works or etc.

Holiness or good works or obedience is an "automatic by-product" of salvation = born-again of the Spirit. You just go with the flow or wind of the Spirit.
....... We still have to struggle with our flesh, esp for Gentile Christians. God will chastise us for our sins/evil-works and bless us for our good works. There are some dastard sins that can lead to death, mortally or immortally.(1JOHN.5:16-19, 1COR.6:9-11) ...

JOHN.3: = 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

1JOHN.1&2 = 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

When you make it all about grace and say salvation does not include works or holiness, then it can lead someone into thinking they can sin and still be saved. I would rather be doing the right thing with the Lord and not the wrong thing as a part of being in service to His Kingdom (Especially when there are dire consequences to a person's soul in the after life for committing certain sins).

Anyways, when you read John 3 about being born again:
Well, first, you have to realize that being born again spiritually means that you are a changed and new person and you are not the old person. Second, John 3:19-21 mentions the condemntion. It says in verse 20 that all who do evil hate the light. The light is Jesus Christ. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). This is how we show our love for Jesus. It is a requirement to love Jesus because Paul says if any man loves not the Lord Jesus Christ let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

As for 1 John 1:8:

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

 

[GodsGrace101]

ROMANS.10: = Israel Needs the Gospel
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I've asked you before what you believe our own righteousness is. I've also asked you before what The Law is.

If you don't answer that but keep posting verses, what good is it?

The verses are correct but only if you understand the answer to my two question. Since you don't answer them, maybe you don't know the answer?

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Right.
So?
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Fornicators are those who disobey the Law = deemed by you as "no righteousness...no salvation" or "fornicators will not enter heaven".
....... But the Scripture at ROMANS.10 says that salvation is solely through Christ's righteousness, ie Christ's righteousness...salvation. Salvation is not through our righteousness or self-righteousness or righteousness of the Law, ie not righteousness...salvation. Eg no fornication = righteousness. Conversely, "no Christ's righteousness...no salvation", and not "no righteousness...no salvation".

Are you saying that fornicators are going to heaven?
I don't quite understand the point you're making. Sorry.

To reconcile ROMANS.10 and 1CORINTHIANS.6, those who do not have Christ's righteousness will have no works of righteousness and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW, no Christ's righteousness...no righteousness...no salvation. ...

This is correct.

ROMANS.1: = The Just Live by Faith

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

ROMANS.8: = There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

This is correct. The just shall live by faith.
And we are to obey God as that is obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
Romans 16:26
Acts 6:7

Faith in Jesus produces obedience. As in
Mathew 5:16

GALATIANS.5: = Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

As you posted above, those who practice the works of the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Halbhh]

All who have believed on the Son (the "will of the Father"), have 'worked the works of God" and have received life, because life is in the Son.

If a person does believe, we learn that they will show the works, the evidence of faith, visibly, in time. And the most helpful thing is to listen to Christ's words and hear them. Without doing as He said, we will be destroyed He told us.

Can we even improve on the wording of Ephesians 2:8-10?
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[amariselle]

If a person does believe, we learn that they will show the works, the evidence of faith, visibly, in time. And the most helpful thing is to listen to Christ's words and hear them. Without doing as He said, we will be destroyed He told us.

There is salvation, which is a gift received by faith, and then, for all who have been saved, born again and made new creations in Christ, there is discipleship, spiritual maturity and growing in His grace through the milk of the word. God is not going to "destroy" His adopted children whom He has sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Can we even improve on the wording of Ephesians 2:8-10?

I'm not sure what you mean by this question.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What does the Bible have to say about human free will?

That we have it.
From Genesis to Revelation.
Genesis 4:10
God was rather upset with Cain for having killed his brother.
If we have no free will because God determines everything, then God would be responsible for Abel's death and there would be no reason for Him to be upset with Cain.

Philemon 1:14
Philemon has to decide of his own free will to take back the slave that had run away.

Revelation 3:20
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. IF anyone opens the door, He will go in and sup with them.

 

[redleghunter]

This text is deeply misunderstood. In context, the “works” that do not save are not general good works, they are the works of the Law of Moses that only the Jew can do.

Ephesians in general is misused often. The audience is Gentiles not Jews. That is why Paul used the general 'works' instead of works of the Law. No sense telling Gentiles about the Law when they had Grace.

 

[redleghunter]

I'll take common ground where I can find it. Are we also in agreement that our own will, choices, and actions, are part of His sovereign design of salvation?

Paul tells us we are either in bondage to sin and death or a slave to righteousness. That amounts to our free will in bondage to something.

Romans 6: NASB
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


For those who advocate, somehow without Divine intervention spiritually, we come to Christ and 'choose' to follow Him or accept Him by our free will, the above refutes such.

 

[discipler7]

After Christ(= after 33 AD), saved Jewish Christians were required to continue to keep/obey Moses Law, as many laws as possible, because it was not a burden to them.
....... After Christ, saved Gentile Christians were required to begin their born-again lives by keeping just 4 simple laws of Moses(ACTS.15:24-29), so as not to burden them, ie avoid eating blood, strangled animals, idol-foods and sexual immorality. They should gradually learn to keep as many non-burdensome laws as possible, especially morality laws, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20). They should exempt themselves from burdensome laws, eg circumcision, kosher foods, etc.

Why the law-exemptions for Gentile Christians.? Most Gentiles led lawless lives from childhood, wrt Moses Law. Gentile Christians might have carried a lot of sinful baggage before they converted, eg ancestral curses.(EXODUS.20:5) So, law-exemptions were given to them because the blessing of salvation or eternal life through Jesus Christ is much more important than the blessing of a long life on earth through the Law(= holiness, good works, obedience, etc).
....... Imposing extra strict and legalistic requirements of holiness or good works of the Law or obedience to the Law on such Gentile Christians may cause them to depart from the faith or lose faith. This is likely what the false teaching of "justified by faith+works" does to such "weak" Gentile Christians, ie may cause them to lose faith. ...

1THESS.4: = The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

MATTHEW.23: =
Woe to the Scribes and Pharisees
23 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. ...

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. ...

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! ...

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Sorry A, I didn't mean to imply that you did (re Calvin).
I meant to say that the idea of eternal security or OSAS or perseverance of the saints was developed by him and those that came immediately after.

It did NOT exist before this. The idea was foreign to both the N.T. writers AND those that came immediately after them.

You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, “How could a doctrine this important–if true–remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quarters of all of Church history?”

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God’s grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”

source: The Early Church believed in Once Saved, Always… oh, Wait, No They Didn’t!

(the above source is posted ONLY to show proof that OSAS did not exist prior to John Calvin)

So weird the Apostle Paul invented the word and concept of predestination, and others like Augustine defended it, so weird how perseverance could be tied with predestination, and other concepts like chosen before the foundation of the world, weird!!

 

[expos4ever]

Ephesians in general is misused often. The audience is Gentiles not Jews. That is why Paul used the general 'works' instead of works of the Law. No sense telling Gentiles about the Law when they had Grace.

The audience may indeed be Gentiles, and this is all the more reason why these readers need to be assured that justification is not limited to Jews.

Let’s be clear: Paul frequently uses the single word “works” to denote the works of the Law of Moses. So the fact that Ephesians 2:9 does not explicitly reference the Law of Moses is not an argument that he is not referring to the Law of Moses.

Besides, there is simply no debate here - what Paul writes in verse 11 and following eliminate all doubt: the “works” if verse 9 must be those associated with the Law if Moses.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Let's look if I did not understand.


You stated James caused a bit of a problem with James 2:24.

You said they did not sit down and sort this out. However, they did at the Council of Jerusalem:

As stated above I provided the historical context on how Paul, Barnabas, Peter, James and the Jerusalem church at large settled the matter that we are saved by Grace through faith (verses 9-11).

The Council of Jerusalem was all about addressing Saved by Grace through Faith + something else. The something else was refuted.

I addressed your comments about Paul and James harmonizing their teachings. They did not have to as the Council of Jerusalem settled the matter with Peter telling all both Jews and Gentiles had their hearts cleansed by faith in Christ and that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

With the above in mind is how we are treat the entire chapter of James chapter 2. Not in isolation and tension against the rest of Holy Scriptures.

The above is all good...but we weren't discussing salvation by faith alone. THIS HAS ALWAYS been the case. Even the ECF believed we are saved by faith, but then come works. AFTER salvation, as God requires.

We were discussing the difference between Justification and Sanctification and how even Paul misused the terms at times.

 

[MDC]

I suggest it is clear that you do need “good works” to be justified; Romans 2:6-7 is crytal clear on this as are a number of other texts. This does not deny justification by faith - the two can be seen to be compatible if we understand that the good works are “evidence” that what really saves - faith - is genuine.

One is in opposition to another. Sola fide is Justification in Christ and His merits alone. What is justification by faith to you?

 

[MDC]

Not really. Paul is really very clear that it is the indwelling Spirit that is the engine that generates the good works.

So to say that we need “good works” is not necessarily to say that we can take personal credit for those works.

When you imply that our works are the grounds for justification, then you are in error and against the gospel of Christ

 

[Halbhh]

There is salvation, which is a gift received by faith, and then, for all who have been saved, born again and made new creations in Christ, there is discipleship, spiritual maturity and growing in His grace through the milk of the word. God is not going to "destroy" His adopted children whom He has sealed with the Holy Spirit.



I'm not sure what you mean by this question.

The OSAS question is pretty deep, and I don't try to say I know one way or the other. I can indeed imagine some suffering to the depths of despair before they turn around and repent, like the Prodigal Son. We know this does indeed happen. But I can't think His warnings about those not doing His commands are empty. Rather, His warnings are desperately needed to be listened to, for our own sakes.

About whether we can improve on the wonderful wording of Ephesians ch 2, v8-10 I quoted above, I'm feeling that wording is so wonderful that all my various paraphrases aren't as good (or at least at the moment). Or sometimes it's apples and oranges of course. But I mean I can't paraphrase those 3 verses themselves better than the full quote from the NIV translation, really.

 

[112358]

Paul tells us we are either in bondage to sin and death or a slave to righteousness. That amounts to our free will in bondage to something.

Romans 6: NASB
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


For those who advocate, somehow without Divine intervention spiritually, we come to Christ and 'choose' to follow Him or accept Him by our free will, the above refutes such.

The above in no way refutes free will. In fact it illustrates free will without a doubt. I have highlighted places throughout that illustrate as such, in each case a choice is made.

 

[expos4ever]

One is in opposition to another. Sola fide is Justification in Christ and His merits alone. What is justification by faith to you?

You are conceding that Scripture is inerrant if you are saying the two cannot be reconciled. Is that a position you really want to own?

I have already explained that the good works - clearly required for eternal life according to Paul in Romans 2 - are effectively the evidence showing our faith is real. So we are indeed justified through what Christ accomplished on the Cross.

But Paul means what he writes in Romans 2 - no good works, no eternal life.

 

[expos4ever]

When you imply that our works are the grounds for justification, then you are in error and against the gospel of Christ

This is just a bald statement that you disagree with me.

What does Paul write in Romans 2:6-7? He tells us that eternal life is given, yes, according to what we have DONE.

Now this is not the whole story, but it is still true.

 

[MDC]

You are conceding that Scripture is inerrant if you are saying the two cannot be reconciled. Is that a position you really want to own?

I have already explained that the good works - clearly required for eternal life according to Paul in Romans 2 - are effectively the evidence showing our faith is real. So we are indeed justified through what Christ accomplished on the Cross.

But Paul means what he writes in Romans 2 - no good works, no eternal life.

Do you believe Christ’s merits ALONE justifies?

 

[expos4ever]

Do you believe Christ’s merits ALONE justifies?

If I answer this question, will you explain what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I was too tired last night. Sorry for my curt reply.
What would be nice is for persons to KNOW Jesus.
When I met up with Jesus at about the age of 27/28, I felt like I knew Him. I started reading the bible and got a little worried when I read about the woman to whom Jesus didn't even want to give some crumbs to. But I KNEW I was misunderstanding something because I knew He was a God of love. It took a lot of studying to find out about Jews and Israel and the original sheep, etc.

But I learned this from two churches --- not online.
Churches depend on theologians who have studied for years to understand what was written 2,000 years ago. When we read stuff online, we should already know if we agree with it or not.

I listen to Swaggart and he sounds so right.
I listen to McCarthur and he sounds so right.
Jesus tells me whom I'm to trust...First of all HIM, and second of all those who agree with HIM and what HE said so many years ago.

Sometimes I post something Jesus said and it gets counter-posted with something Paul said.

1. Jesus hung on the cross, not Paul.

2. Paul AGREED with everything Jesus said!

So how could there be any misunderstanding?
Because some believe Paul taught only grace, when this is not true at all. He only explained very well that unrighteous works do not save and that we are saved by grace. But then he goes on to say that we are also to work at our salvation with fear and trembling.

Maybe some just love grace and hate work?

I tend to stick with the bible/Jesus words more than anything, then when other wisdom comes along, I would hope I can recognize it.

As far a s learning from a Church setting, they are men, and that can be a problem...some of the junk we see here actually comes out of some churches. That's not to say we cannot find a good church we can trust, not at all, but that one should always go back to the Bible if there is question about anything taught. And never assume we should not question authority if need be... doing so has landed a few smack dab i the middle of a cult or at the very least on very wrong paths.

As far as these wrong "easy" doctrines, it's as you say, love the grace part of the bargain, but to walk the talk? not on your life. They only want to make the requirement of any effort go away. They want "easy" more than they want what God requires, so they allow themselves to be easily swayed by false doctrine, and in this case as you say, swayed by those who choose to twist Paul's words, it's a favorite around here. They only need someone to help them justify what they want, then they are all over it without question.

They basically delude, or lead themselves astray out of sheer selfishness, so in the end, it's all on them, and all we can do is hope to wake them up..