Justification by Faith Defended!

[Phil 1:21]

the link was supposed to go right to the post, where does it take you?

Actually I tried the link and it took me right to the post I was wanting you to see...what's up?

Perhaps next time identify the post. When I click on threads it often takes me to somewhere in the middle.

That being said, I read your post. Your hypothesis rests on connecting "receiving" the word to being saved, and you've used opinion to connect those dots. Unless you can connect them with scripture itself, your post is more eisegesis than exegesis.

 

[discipler7]

IIRC, someone here quoted Scripture and pronounced King David as being unsaved because he had committed murder(= not a good work). Scripture says different. Even repentant murderers and prostitutes can be saved. The danger here is that that-someone falsely pronouncing believers as unsaved because they have committed this sin or that sin. ...

HEBREWS.11: = 32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

1CORINTHIANS.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

GALATIANS.5: = 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1JOHN.1&2 = 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[redleghunter]

That we have it.
From Genesis to Revelation.
Genesis 4:10
God was rather upset with Cain for having killed his brother.
If we have no free will because God determines everything, then God would be responsible for Abel's death and there would be no reason for Him to be upset with Cain.

Philemon 1:14
Philemon has to decide of his own free will to take back the slave that had run away.

Revelation 3:20
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. IF anyone opens the door, He will go in and sup with them.

Well I agree with CS Lewis when he said people in hell will be there of their own free will.

Yet since the fall of mankind, our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to the righteousness of God. One might say that is not so free after all.

Romans 6: NASB
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[zoidar]

What did Jesus do before these verses?

I don't know... what did he do?

 

[Kenny'sID]

79%?? There are none around!

Well, that's not good.

 

[redleghunter]

The audience may indeed be Gentiles,

It is Gentile not a Jewish audience:
Ephesians 2: NASB

11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Let’s be clear: Paul frequently uses the single word “works” to denote the works of the Law of Moses.

Not in this case.

So the fact that Ephesians 2:9 does not explicitly reference the Law of Moses is not an argument that he is not referring to the Law of Moses.

It is when you have a Gentile audience.

Besides, there is simply no debate here - what Paul writes in verse 11 and following eliminate all doubt: the “works” if verse 9 must be those associated with the Law if Moses.

No, Paul is showing how the Gentiles were out of the picture of promise until Christ united the nations and people in His Blood. The Council of Jerusalem already made it clear that Gentiles did not have to become Jews first in order to become Christians. Council of Jerusalem was in 48-50 AD and Ephesians was written circa 61 AD. The debate was over by then.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Do you believe everyone in church, or who calls themselves a Christians is actually saved?

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1 John 2:19

Your post in reply was irrelevant, and an absolute dodge from something you cannot argue with.

Would you please just answer the question? Or can I take it you will not answer for the reason I just mentioned.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Your post in reply was irrelevant, and an absolute dodge from something you cannot argue with.

Would you please just answer the question? Or can I take it you will not answer for the reason I just mentioned.

I did answer your question (with scripture no less). I suspect your issue with my answer is it wasn't the one you wanted.

 

[redleghunter]

Paul tells us we are either in bondage to sin and death or a slave to righteousness. That amounts to our free will in bondage to something.

Romans 6: NASB
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


For those who advocate, somehow without Divine intervention spiritually, we come to Christ and 'choose' to follow Him or accept Him by our free will, the above refutes such.

The above in no way refutes free will. In fact it illustrates free will without a doubt. I have highlighted places throughout that illustrate as such, in each case a choice is made.

The above in no uncertain terms shows our will is either in bondage to sin and death or in bondage to the righteousness of God. Bondage of the will. Doesn't seem so 'free' after all.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Let me ask you this: Do you understand what Paul is describing in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15?

Yeah, read the entire chapter and you'll see to whom Peter is referring.

It doesn't matter to whom he's referring. I keep hearing this.

They were LOST
Then became SAVED
and then were LOST again.

AGAIN entangled in the defilements of the world.
2 Peter 2:20

They knew the WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
2 Peter 2:21

They TURNED AWAY from the holy commandmetns.
2 Peter 2:21

A dog RETURNS to is vomit.
2 Peter 2:22

As to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 YOU brought it up, so please explain it.

 

[redleghunter]

??

Is there a reason you don't wan to clarify, as I asked you, but instead you just repeat what you said with no clarification?



I personally would have looked it up, that is if I truly wasn't familiar with it. Maybe you'd just rather not go there?

Your contrariness tells me you are afraid to discuss this further, and that's up to you, but the natural conclusion to that is you have no defense for whatever it is you are claiming...you won't even make that clear...wonder why?

Very familiar if you mean the parable of the soils. What's your point about it? Only one type of soil produced.

 

[redleghunter]

Here is a prior post on the biblical explanation Jesus gave of his Parable of the Sower, that covers what you are requesting, with scripture/explanation in detail on just what you are talking about here...losing salvation. Please read it and comment on it if you will....Thanks.

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Who says other than the soil which produced were saved? Many are called and few are chosen.

 

[expos4ever]

Not in this case.

No. Verses 11 and following make the case. In those verses, the author explains that God has brought Jew and Gentile together. How did God achieve this? By doing away with the very thing the Jew believed gave them exclusive rights to justification - the Law of Moses!

So when Paul says that “works” don’t justify in verse 9, he has to be making the case that doing the works of the Law of Moses, not good works that the Gentile could also do, do not have the power to justify the Jew to the exclusion of the Gentile.

Your position on this cannot work in context. Which is why supporters of your stance bever bring up verses 11 and following since that block of text completely undermines their position.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That verse is not an instruction on how to be saved or stay saved. It was written to already saved and sealed believers to instruct them as faithful disciples and in spiritual maturity.

We were discussing works and salvation.
1 John 3:17-22 could address both. Here's how:

1 John 3:17-22
17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

From the above verses we learn:

1. If we see a brother in need we are to help him. This is a work.

2. If we do not help him, the love of God is not in us.

3. We are not to love only in WORD but in DEED. Deeds are works.

4. We will know by THIS...doing good deeds, that we are of the truth.

5. We will receive from God because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing to Him. More works.

 

[GodsGrace101]

We believe in Christ Jesus in who he is, and in what he has done. This is what saves the ungodly. There is no room for any of our works. And if you mix any of your works in the Gospel, then you have another Gospel, that Paul warned the Galatians, that is no gospel at all. Are we speaking of justification of sinner here. Not the sanctification of the believer. These are two distinct topics, but not separated.

Perhaps YOU have another gospel.
Could you please show me where it plainly states that we are to have faith ALONE and that works are not necessary for maintaining salvation. I've listed many -- can you list ONE?

If you could also show how those that came immediately after the Apostles also believed that works do not keep saved, it would be nice. I could post many early theologians who stated that works are necessary for salvation.

No gospel at all....that sounds like what some here preach.
Please do the above.
Thanks.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Very familiar if you mean the parable of the soils. What's your point about it? Only one type of soil produced.

I trust I'm not going to run into near the evasion issues with you as with Phil 1:21 on the same scripture, so please read the past post at the following link on the subject so you'll see my point.. I made it very detailed/clear.

Also please let me know if the link takes you directly to post 394 of that thread or elsewhere? Thanks

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

 

[amariselle]

We were discussing works and salvation.
1 John 3:17-22 could address both. Here's how:

1 John 3:17-22
17But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? 18Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. 19We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him 20in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. 21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

From the above verses we learn:

1. If we see a brother in need we are to help him. This is a work.

2. If we do not help him, the love of God is not in us.

3. We are not to love only in WORD but in DEED. Deeds are works.

4. We will know by THIS...doing good deeds, that we are of the truth.

5. We will receive from God because we keep His commandments and do what is pleasing to Him. More works.

John 2:17-22 is also addressed to "little children" "beloved" (saved, born again, sealed believers). These verses speak of having a clear conscience and confidence before God, which is indeed a precious thing. However, they are not instruction in how to be saved, but again are instruction in discipleship and spiritual maturity.

17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight

 

[Phil 1:21]

It doesn't matter to whom he's referring. I keep hearing this.

They were LOST
Then became SAVED
and then were LOST again.

So context isn't important to you? Good to know.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Trying not to read too much into this, but if we are headed in the direction of predestination and its implications (probably another thread completely) then we should do so with scriptures like this in mind: 2 Peter 3:9 Romans 2:11

Okay, with 2 Peter 3:9 we have to consider the audience of the letter which is revealed in 2 Peter 1:1

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

and next we will go over 2 Peter 3:9

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

In this context and considering the audience, the "all" is referring to "those who have obtained a faith...by the righteousness of our God", in other words, by implication, ALL of the elect in Christ.

Romans 2:11 is an easy one to interpret, but for a bit more depth, let's read Calvin's interpretation, which is spot on:

"11.There is no respect of persons, etc. He has hitherto generally arraigned all mortals as guilty; but now he begins to bring home his accusation to the Jews and to the Gentiles separately: and at the same time he teaches us, that it is no objection that there is a difference between them, but that they are both without any distinction exposed to eternal death. The Gentiles pretended ignorance as their defense; the Jews gloried in the honor of having the law: from the former he takes away their subterfuge, and he deprives the latter of their false and empty boasting.

There is then a division of the whole human race into two classes; for God had separated the Jews from all the rest, but the condition of all the Gentiles was the same. He now teaches us, that this difference is no reason why both should not be involved in the same guilt. But the wordperson is taken in Scripture for all outward things, which are wont to be regarded as possessing any value or esteem. When therefore thou readest, that God is no respecter of persons, understand that what he regards is purity of heart or inward integrity; and that he hath no respect for those things which are wont to be highly valued by men, such as kindred, country, dignity, wealth, and similar things; so that respect of persons is to be here taken for the distinction or the difference there is between one nation and another. (68) But if any hence objects and says, “That then there is no such thing as the gratuitous election of God;” it may be answered, That there is a twofold acceptation of men before God; the first, when he chooses and calls us from nothing through gratuitous goodness, as there is nothing in our nature which can be approved by him; the second, when after having regenerated us, he confers on us his gifts, and shows favor to the image of his Son which he recognizes in us." John Calvin, Expositions of Romans
​

Proving his exposition correct is very easy, read the context surrounding Romans 2:11, such as; v."9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek." The context for impartiality is tribulation and distress (not salvation) and the context of "Jew" and "Greek" tells us that the impartiality of Romans 2:11 is concerned with races of men.

Otherwise we are headed straight for the doctrine of universalism,

Romans Chapter 9 alone destroys any notion of universalism.

or to the doctrine that God created and therefor endorses evil and disobedience.

So you deny Isaiah 45:7? Does 1 Samuel 16:14 mean anything? Who created Lucifer? See your strawman just raises more questions than answers and it would require great lengths of time and ink to explain the errors of your thinking on these matters.

Free will clears these serious complications with predestination right up.

At least we both believe in free will and predestination...yeah you read that right.

Foreknowing does not equate to forechoosing.

Foreknowing in the Bible, means foreLOVEing. But in case you will not accept that meaning, here are a couple of plain proof from Scripture concerning "forechoosing":

Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Who says other than the soil which produced were saved? Many are called and few are chosen.

JESUS SAID IT.

Luke 8:13 JESUS SAYS:
13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away."

Mathew 13:20-21 JESUS SAYS:
20“The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away."

Jesus Himself said that the word was RECEIVED with JOY.
Who receives God's word with joy --- an unsaved person??
No. A saved person who has accepted God's word.

Jesus Himself said that it was ONLY TEMPORARY. The person was saved only temporarily. We don't know how long because
he FELL AWAY when persecution or affliction came.

So the person received God's word and was saved,
and then he fell away.