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Yes which lead us away from that in ourselves we must reject and understanding why, will not carry it forward with us.seeking Him, drawing near to Him, remaining in Him, increasing in holiness by walking in the Spirit. These are directives given us.
"Reject self" sounds like an Buddhist/Hindu concept. But you probably mean something else. Maybe you mean reject egotism?But that is focusing on self. The idea is to reject self.
I mean upon becoming self aware we took it upon ourselves to pursue self interest, to self determine what it good and evil, to self justify those determinations, to be self centered contrary to the second commandment of Jesus, etc etc., all of which and more create all the woes of the world."Reject self" sounds like an Buddhist/Hindu concept. But you probably mean something else. Maybe you mean reject egotism?
Yes which lead us away from that in ourselves we must reject and understanding why, will not carry it forward with us.
Yes and Paul never saw it and probably neither will we. The transition to the Kingdom is happening everyday and that transition occurs as we leave the self serving ways of man behind. That transition runs in importance even before inheritance of eternal life. We are secondary.however, the hope of every Christian is the Promise of God to inherit eternal life in His Kingdom - the Kingdom of Light. Without that hope of the Gospel, Eternal Life, [John 3:16), Christians have no motive to live out The Faith.
Yes and Paul never saw it and probably neither will we. The transition to the Kingdom is happening everyday and that transition occurs as we leave the self serving ways of man behind. That transition runs in importance even before inheritance of eternal life. We are secondary.
Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.
"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.This is not the historical teaching of the church. The believer is justified by being forgiven, cleansed, made a new creation- not merely declared righteous but filled with the gift of righteousness as he enters fellowship with God, now enabled to walk in His ways as a slave to righteousness instead of to sin- by grace, by the Spirit and the love that's been poured out into His heart (Rom 5:5). Justification and sanctification are part and parcel of the same thing: holiness, the life of God in us, with sanctification being a growth in that holiness, in that transformation into His own image as opposed to burying it or turning back away from it.
As they have to many people in the last 2000 years. Granted we are truly at a global scale now. But in my opinion as there is nothing we can do about it, there are more important things to dwell upon. Things getting worse should theoretically cause more people to look at themselves and realize they must leave the traditional self serving ways of man behind.Well, Timothyu, I do understand the transition of the Kingdom, but at this present time, things are growing worse, and will continue to grow worse until the appearing of Christ.
As they have to many people in the last 2000 years. Granted we are truly at a global scale now. But in my opinion as there is nothing we can do about it, there are more important things to dwell upon. Things getting worse should theoretically cause more people to look at themselves and realize they must leave the traditional self serving ways of man behind.
"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.
I see Scriptures where we grow, and become more mature in The Faith (2 Thessalonians 1:3; Revelation 2:19), and our faith is tested (James 1:2-4; 1 Peter 1:6-7). Can you show me Scriptures in which we grow or mature in sanctification?
I ask you this because the Scriptures teach that without sanctification, no one can see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14-17).
Do you have any quotes from the Church Fathers that show that the Early Church held sanctification before justification? I haven't looked for it myself."Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.... (Doctrine Of Sanctification). Progressive sanctification seems to be the norm within Christendom.What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? | GotQuestions.org
What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Is sanctification positional or progressive?www.gotquestions.org
What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org ... (Doctrine of Justification). Can't have one without the other. The order seems to depend on one's preference (church doctrine or Holy Spirit counsel). Does church doctrine always line up with that of the Holy Spirit?
We may have arrived at a cul-de-sac of sorts in which scrptures have been so theologized over 2000 years that discussing which comes first (sanctification or justification) apparently can't be proved for those that think the order should be changed with justification before sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11)
It was your opinion in your first post (answering the 5 questions) that my understanding is "dangerouos". The Apostles and early disciples were always aware of the "dangers" of being an outspoken follower of Christ. What Christian today wants to rock the boat knowing that doing so more likely results in disunity than unity?
"Sanctification" means --of itself-- only what it means. It does not in every use of the word (or related concepts) in scripture, refer to the doctrine that is usually called the Doctrine of Sanctification, which is about growth subsequent to justification and regeneration.... (Doctrine Of Sanctification). Progressive sanctification seems to be the norm within Christendom.What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? | GotQuestions.org
What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification? Is sanctification positional or progressive?www.gotquestions.org
What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org ... (Doctrine of Justification). Can't have one without the other. The order seems to depend on one's preference (church doctrine or Holy Spirit counsel). Does church doctrine always line up with that of the Holy Spirit?
We may have arrived at a cul-de-sac of sorts in which scrptures have been so theologized over 2000 years that discussing which comes first (sanctification or justification) apparently can't be proved for those that think the order should be changed with justification before sanctification (1 Corinthians 6:11)
It was your opinion in your first post (answering the 5 questions) that my understanding is "dangerouos". The Apostles and early disciples were always aware of the "dangers" of being an outspoken follower of Christ. What Christian today wants to rock the boat knowing that doing so more likely results in disunity than unity?
Paul is simply stating the position we all find ourselves in apart from the grace of God. No matter how kind or patient or loving we may think ourselves to be, our human good is finite and we will eventually be shown up for the sinner we are under testing.Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...
Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.
Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).
17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).
He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)
And this is a basic misunderstanding of the Reformed movement. In truth, Christ delivers me from the sin that separates me from God, earning me death. Grace saves me by not only forgiveness of sin but by the overcoming of future sin, enabling us to 'go, and sin no more' with a new, authentic righteousness not based on the law but on faith, a righteousness that's ensured to the extent that we walk by the Spirit, now in union with God, under grace. This understanding flows naturally from Rom 6 and into Rom 8.Paul isn't saying it is difficult to stop sinning, he is saying it is impossible. Therefore, he ends the passage with ....
Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
I gave Clare73 the "Winner Award" (poste;d on 3/11 and awarded on 3/12) as it represents (Titus 3:5) what "born again" (not lukewarm-nominal) Christians consider the correct theological interpretation of Romans 7:17-25. Also Clare73 "Agreed" with my introductory sentence (posted below) a representative theology of Christianity ...I see Paul as clearly referring to his life in Judaism prior to his conversion to life in Christ (Ro 7:25).Nor are we sinless in Christ (1 Jn 1:8-10)."Can't stop sinning" is prior to new birth. They do much better after new birth.But we are not sin free after the new birth (1 Jn 1:8-10). That comes only in glory.
Furthermore it is evident from some of your posts that Jesus' words should not be taken as literal by the lame man and adulturous woman because even today's born again Christians don't believe it's possible to stop sinning.Well of course Jesus is going to say , "sin no more". What else is he suppose to say? "Just try and cut back on the sinning" ? In Matthew 5:48 it appears Jesus demands perfection. But he also said we should pray, "forgive us our trespasses". Unless your one of those people who think you should never pray the Lord's Prayer more than once in your lifetime.
AbbaLove, I believe Jesus demands perfection. Do you believe this also ?
The church has struggled with these matters many centuries ago. The problem involves whether there is any consequence for sin. Can no amount or gravity of sin separate us from God again? The early church actually taught that there can be no repentance for serious sin after conversion, such as for murder or adultery. Conversion to the living God involved the turning away from sin and the ways of the world. Various passages support this no-more-repentance-available idea and in any case Gal 5 and elsewhere affirm that such sins lead to death. This was modified fairly soon, meaning that it was recognized that, due to God's love and mercy and desire that none should perish, one can repent of any sin, with a true change of heart. But sin was taken very seriously back then; the early believers had given up much to become Christians, including their lives and those who had returned to the flesh were not easily, or quickly, considered to be under God's grace again.I gave Clare73 the "Winner Award" (poste;d on 3/11 and awarded on 3/12) as it represents (Titus 3:5) what "born again" (not lukewarm-nominal) Christians consider the correct theological interpretation of Romans 7:17-25. Also Clare73 "Agreed" with my introductory sentence (posted below) a representative theology of Christianity ...
Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification meansgrowing in righteousness.
Possibly why the majority of today's theologians use "progressive sanctification"(holiness) as following "justification". Which is contrary to 1 Corinthians 6:11 ... such that whether the Pope or highly educated theologians (Hebrew and Greek) they are able to correctly interrupt the Holy Bible for the masses.
That way we won't take the Words of Jesus and Paul ("stop sinning") as literal instruction knowing that it is impossible to stop sinning. What would we do without the Pope and the most highly educated born again theologians to write a worthy commentary for our consideration.
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The other summation (possible conclusion) from your posts is that when Jesus told the lame man that he healed to: Stop sinning or something worse may happen. He new it wasn't possible for him to stop sinning under the existing covenant.
Likewise when Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to: "Go and sin no more" it wasn't meant to be literal under the existing covenant. Jesus' disciples had not yet received their conversion so under the present covenant it was impossible for them to stop sinnng.
Even after the disciples conversion (Titus 3:5) we have come to the conclusion thanks in part to Setst777 that it isn't possible for today's 'born again' Christians to stop sinning. Athough it may have been possible for the original Apostles to stop sinning (Titus 3:5).
That's possibly why some 'born again' Christians don't believe the 9 supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 1-11) are still active (ceased) among today's 'born again' Christians.
Same with Paul when he told some in the Corinthian church to "stop sinning". Yet more than a few Christians believe Paul was is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says ...
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. (Romans 7:21-23)
Burningbush84 sums up his interpretation of the words of Jesus and Paul with this post ...
Furthermore it is evident from some of your posts that Jesus' words should not be taken as literal by the lame man and adulturous woman because even today's born again Christians don't believe it's possible to stop sinning.
Thus it's to be expected that more than a few 'born again' Christians will in so many ways belittle a Christian who believes Jesus intended for the lame man that was healed and the adulturous to accept His words as possible.
When we are indoctrinated by theologians that it is impossible to stop sinning then other scriptures are misinterpreted which invariably leads to what is called "progressive sanctification" or "progressive righteousness"
What we've learned is that a born again Christian shouldn't take the words of Jesus as literal or when Paul tells others to "stop sinning" being that some thinks that Paul still considers himself a foremost "chief" sinner of sinners.
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