Justification and Sanctification ?

[timothyu]

God has offered the Kingdom to all ever since the resurrection, but each must still pledge allegiance to His will over our own so why would He send anything until we do so?

 

[zoidar]

God has offered the Kingdom to all ever since the resurrection, but each must still pledge allegiance to His will over our own so why would He send anything until we do so?

I don't think He necessarily would. I don't know how it was for you. For me it was a complete surrender of mind and heart, that lead to God giving His Spirit and giving me a new heart and a new life.

 

[timothyu]

For me it was a complete surrender of mind and heart, that lead to God giving His Spirit and giving me a new heart and a new life.

But why did you do that?

 

[zoidar]

But why did you do that?

Because I was convicted of sin and judgment.

 

[Dah'veed]

To me a change of mind comes first, then the new birth follows, with a complete change of life. IOW first change of mind, then receiving the Spirit and a new heart.

They report how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who saves us from the coming wrath. 1 Thess 1:9-10

 

[AbbaLove]

Very True. Faith without repentance is not the Gospel Faith by which God chooses to save us.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

So, it would seem there is little disagreement that: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness).

According to Paul 'born again' Chritians should be sanctificed (holy) ... Does anyone posting so far disagree with Paul? If so - Why?

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ... (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, (YLT)
that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)
that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, (WEB)
that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (NIV)
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; (KJV)​

Of 50 Bible translations 33 use either holiness or holy and 17 using sanctification. Other expressions are: consecration, purity, separated from things profane. (1 Thessalonians 4:4) The lengthy Phillips translation is uses "holy" as follows ...

God’s plan is to make you holy, and that entails first of all a clean cut with sexual immorality. Every one of you should learn to control his body, keeping it pure and treating it with respect, and never regarding it as an instrument for self-gratification, as do pagans with no knowledge of God. You cannot break this rule without in some way cheating your fellow-men. And you must remember that God will punish all who do offend in this matter, and we have warned you how we have seen this work out in our experience of life. The calling of God is not to impurity but to the most thorough purity, and anyone who makes light of the matter is not making light of man’s ruling but of God’s command. It is not for nothing that the Spirit God gives us is called the Holy Spirit.​

Does a 'born again' Christian first have to be sanctified before they are justified
(Do some of today's churches have it in the wrong order)​

​

​

 

[zoidar]

So, it would seem there is little disagreement that: Belief, Repentance and Faith are necessary for one's sanctification (holiness).

According to Paul 'born again' Chritians should be sanctificed (holy) ... Does anyone posting so far disagree with Paul? If so - Why?

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. ... (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

Of 50 Bible translations 33 use either holiness or holy and 17 using sanctification. Other expressions are: consecration, purity, separated from things profane. (1 Thessalonians 4:4) The lengthy Phillips translation is uses "holy" as follows ...

​

God’s plan is to make you holy, and that entails first of all a clean cut with sexual immorality. Every one of you should learn to control his body, keeping it pure and treating it with respect, and never regarding it as an instrument for self-gratification, as do pagans with no knowledge of God. You cannot break this rule without in some way cheating your fellow-men. And you must remember that God will punish all who do offend in this matter, and we have warned you how we have seen this work out in our experience of life. The calling of God is not to impurity but to the most thorough purity, and anyone who makes light of the matter is not making light of man’s ruling but of God’s command. It is not for nothing that the Spirit God gives us is called the Holy Spirit.​

Does a 'born again' Christian first have to be sanctified before they are justified
(Do some of today's churches have it in the wrong order)​

​

​

I think at the new birth we are washed clean, sanctified (and justified), but we need to keep living righteously to keep our sancification. If we quench the Spirit from sinning, our heart will get muddy again. Basically.

I'm also open for the possibility that some people aren't totally washed clean at the new birth, yet justified. But that life with Christ will change their heart, moving towards a complete sanctification.

I don't think you can be sanctified before you are justified. How do you see it?

 

[Dah'veed]

I think at the new birth we are washed clean, ...

You are already clean because of the word; John 15:3

I don't think you can be sanctified before you are justified. How do you see it?

For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. John 17:19 Heb 2:11

 

[setst777]

To me a change of mind comes first, then the new birth follows, with a complete change of life. IOW first change of mind, then receiving the Spirit and a new heart.

Yes, I agree just as you stated.

I would like to add something though that we have not discussed yet that I think may be important to understanding the new birth or new heart....

• For the new birth/new heart of the indwelling Spirit to take place we first must repent and believe, just as you stated.
• The many Scriptures that use the terms "The Faith" or "Believe In" without using the word "repentance" is already assuming that repentance has occurred within the context, because to be in "The Faith" of the Gospel, to truly "Believe In," or to "have faith in" Lord Jesus, means to have the kind of faith God accepts to be saved in context.
• The Scriptures that teach about Faith in Lord Jesus are in the present tense.
• The present tense in Greek is assumed to be continuous unless restricted by a time limit within the sentence.
• "Faith," "believe," "believes," "believing" - is understood to be a voluntary action of the one believing after learning the Gospel that must continue to the end to remain in the saving grace of God and to inherit the promises. And there are many Scriptures that do admonish the Christian that he is to remain firm in the faith to the end to be saved.

Zoidar, I believe you already understand this, but I write it for anyone who may be reading this message. I believe you understand this because of what you had written to "AbbaLove" as follows:

zoidar wrote:
I think at the new birth we are washed clean, sanctified (and justified), but we need to keep living righteously to keep our sancification. If we quench the Spirit from sinning, our heart will get muddy again. Basically.

While the Spirit indwells true believers in Lord Jesus by which we begin the new life, the new birth, the guarantee of this new life is always and only for those who believe and continue in the faith he had when he first believed and by which he received the Spirit.

I say this because not all Christians will remain faithful, and so, they will grieve (Ephesians 4:17-32; Isaiah 63:10); quench (1 Thessalonians 5:19); insult (Hebrews 10:24-31); resist (Act 7:51), reject (1 Thessalonians 4:1-8), lie to (Acts 5:3), and test (Acts 5:9), the Spirit of God indwelling them, which can result in eternal punishment if not repented of (Hebrews 10:24-30); for the Spirit will only give a new life, and eternal life, to those Christians who continue to sow to the Spirit without giving up (Galatians 6:7-9). The Spirit leads the Christian as the Christian is, by faith, is willing to be led by the Spirit to the New Life now, and to inherit Eternal Life.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Romans 8:3-4 (WEB) 3 For what the law couldn’t do; in that, it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Therefore, although the indwelling Spirit guarantees eternal life to the believer, the guarantee and promise of eternal life is for those who are believing, and continue to believe with the same faith they had when the first believes and by which the Spirit indwelt them.

For instance, consider these Passages:

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited The Promises.

Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB) 12 Beware, brothers and sisters, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest anyone of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

Romans 6:2-8 (WEB) We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection.

Romans 6:19-23 (WEB) 19 for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive The Promise

Matthew 24:11-13 (WEB) [To believers] 11 Many false prophets will arise and will lead many astray. 12 Because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19 (WEB) 19 “By your endurance you will win your lives.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; 17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Revelation 3:11 (WEB) I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB)34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB) 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) 16 Pay attention to yourself and to your doctrine. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will both save yourself and those who hear [listen to] you.

Jude 1:21 (WEB) 21 Keep yourselves in God’s love, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

2 Peter 1:10-11 (WEB) Therefore, brothers and sisters, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for IF you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

John 12:25 (WEB) He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life.

1 John 1:24-25 (WEB) 24 Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father. 25 This is The Promise which he promised us, the eternal life.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB) He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

In “Matthew 25:31-46” Lord Jesus is the Judge who, at the end of time, will separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep who are resurrected to life are those who believe and live out their faith in Jesus as their Lord in righteousness and love while in this present life. That is “The Promise.”

Matthew 25:34 (WEB) Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ ... 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Luke 10:25-28 (WEB) 25 “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; [Deuteronomy 6:5] and your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18] 28 He said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live.”

John 5:28-29 (WEB) 28 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, 29 and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[AbbaLove]

I think at the new birth we are washed clean, sanctified (and justified), but we need to keep living righteously to keep our sancification. If we quench the Spirit from sinning, our heart will get muddy again. Basically.

Is it possible for a Believer to be "justified" before being raised from death to new life with a glorified body? Was not the proof of our Lord's "justification" His resurrection? Christ Jesus (Israel's Messiah) appeared to 500 people after His resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) as justified proof being (Immanuel - God with us) the physical represeantation / manifestation of Father God. (John 1:1, 14)

IF many of today's Christians that don't believe it's possible to stop sinning ... then is it also possible that God doesn't consider them to be holy?

​

"Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine." (Leviticus 20:26)​

Since the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you. (Deuteronomy 23:14)​

but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)​

I'm also open for the possibility that some people aren't totally washed clean at the new birth, yet justified. But that life with Christ will change their heart, moving towards a complete sanctification.

For years i believed Christendom's order (justification before sanctification). That order is more accepting of man's sinful nature for Christians that don't believe it's possible to stop sinning. And question if hell is really a literal place of eternal punishment or temporary (purgatory).

I don't think you can be sanctified before you are justified. How do you see it?

My preference is Paul's order of sanctification before justification. Is it possible that Christendom has reversed the order beginning around 300 AD/CE? The reasoning that it isn't possible to stop sinning? Is it possible Christians have been so indoctrinated with the reverse order because too many Preists and Pastors (not to mention Christians) find it difficult if not impossibe to stop sexual sins ...

​

Romans 6:1-2, 6, 15​

1-2 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

6 So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not!​

 

[zoidar]

Is it possible for a Believer to be "justified" before being raised from death to new life with a glorified body? Was not the proof of our Lord's "justification" His resurrection? Christ Jesus (Israel's Messiah) appeared to 500 people after His resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:3-8) as justified proof being (Immanuel - God with us) the physical represeantation / manifestation of Father God. (John 1:1, 14)

IF many of today's Christians that don't believe it's possible to stop sinning ... then is it also possible that God doesn't consider them to be holy?

​

"Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine." (Leviticus 20:26)​

Since the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you. (Deuteronomy 23:14)​

but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)​

For years i believed Christendom's order (justification before sanctification). That order is more accepting of man's sinful nature for Christians that don't believe it's possible to stop sinning. And question if hell is really a literal place of eternal punishment or temporary (purgatory).

My preference is Paul's order of sanctification before justification. Is it possible that Christendom has reversed the order beginning around 300 AD/CE? The reasoning that it isn't possible to stop sinning? Is it possible Christians have been so indoctrinated with the reverse order because too many Preists and Pastors (not to mention Christians) find it difficult if not impossibe to stop sexual sins ...

​

Romans 6:1-2, 6, 15​

1-2 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?​

6 So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.​

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not!​

Hm, even if we manage to stop sinning, does that mean we are sanctified? I mean don't we need to receive the Holy Spirit first? We don't have a new heart until we receive God's Spirit right? Being sanctified is not only about stopping to sin, but being clean within the heart as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe we are to stop sinning to truly repent and be born again, but I wouldn't call the stop of sinning being sanctified, before having the new birth.

I do however agree that there might be a misunderstanding among churches what sanctification really means.

Do you have any verses showing sanctification is before justification?

 

[AbbaLove]

"You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
(1 Corinthians 6:11)​

The yoke of the Pharisees was unbearable. The other extreme is the yoke of today's nominal Christianity that teaches it's not possible to stop sinning and be holy. Therefore holiness is unattainable. It's like a Christian can go though his/her entire life without ever becoming sanctified (holy), yet he/she is "justifed" before God according to how some interpret 1John 1:8-10 and Romans 7:17-25 and other scripture.

think at the new birth we are washed clean, sanctified (and justified), but we need to keep living righteously to keep our sancification. If we quench the Spirit from sinning, our heart will get muddy again. Basically.

Sanctification and holiness are interchangeable in Bible translations. Why do you think so many pastors are reluctant to promote "holiness" when 33 out of 50 Bible translations use "holy" ... whereas only 17 out of 50 use "sanctification?

I'm also open for the possibility that some people aren't totally washed clean at the new birth, yet justified. But that life with Christ will change their heart, moving towards a complete sanctification.

Is that the same as "moving towards complete holiness" but never becoming "holy" ... because it's not possible to stop sinning? Yet the Lord says "Be holy as I am holy". The Lord also said "stop sinning or something worse may happen to you" and "Go and sin no more".

​

"Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine." (Leviticus 20:26)​

Since the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you. (Deuteronomy 23:14)​

but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)​

3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul didn't say, "you should try to be sanctified / holy.

Can the Lord sanctify or justify a
nominal lukewarm Christian
that fines it's impossible
to STOP SINNING ?​

 

[zoidar]

"You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
(1 Corinthians 6:11)​

The yoke of the Pharisees was unbearable. The other extreme is the yoke of today's nominal Christianity that teaches it's not possible to stop sinning and be holy. Therefore holiness is unattainable. It's like a Christian can go though his/her entire life without ever becoming sanctified (holy), yet he/she is "justifed" before God according to how some interpret 1John 1:8-10 and Romans 7:17-25 and other scripture.

Sanctification and holiness are interchangeable in Bible translations. Why do you think so many pastors are reluctant to promote "holiness" when 33 out of 50 Bible translations use "holy" ... whereas only 17 out of 50 use "sanctification?

Is that the same as "moving towards complete holiness" but never becoming "holy" ... because it's not possible to stop sinning? Yet the Lord says "Be holy as I am holy". The Lord also said "stop sinning or something worse may happen to you" and "Go and sin no more".

​

"Thus you are to be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy; and I have set you apart from the peoples to be Mine." (Leviticus 20:26)​

Since the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you. (Deuteronomy 23:14)​

but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)​

3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul didn't say, "you should try to be sanctified / holy.

Can the Lord sanctify or justify a
nominal lukewarm Christian
that fines it's impossible
to STOP SINNING ?​

I think it's possible to stop sinning. But it's hard for me to see that a Christian is able to live a whole life and never sinning, if that is what you mean by stop sinning.

I was saved soon 13 years ago, heart washed clean. The very same week I sinned and my heart has not been clean since. Did I lose sanctification and salvation the same week I was saved? I hope not!

I have thought of myself of now being in a process of sanctification. Sanctification or holiness to me is having a clean heart. I think we can be more or less holy or sanctified and hopefully become fully sanctified. But you see it as an either or? Either you are sanctified or you are not? And if you aren't sanctified you won't be saved even you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

 

[timothyu]

Did I lose sanctification and salvation the same week I was saved? I hope not!

Does a caterpillar upon realizing it is bound for a greater personification lose that personification simply because it still must act in the ways of a caterpillar? We are talking transition.

 

[setst777]

Does a caterpillar upon realizing it is bound for a greater personification lose that personification simply because it still must act in the ways of a caterpillar? We are talking transition.

Hi timohyu, I like the analogy you gave. I will give the long version. I think my long version agrees with your response, but let me know if you see any disagreement.

A Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus is a sanctified life onto righteousness (Romans 6:19-22; 1 Thessalonians 4:2-8). That is the faith by which God sanctifies us onto himself.

2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”

Faith in Lord Jesus cannot be separated from a commitment to a sanctified life onto God by following Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love. If this is our faith, our mindset toward God then, when we do sin in weakness, God is faithful to forgive our sins. In this way, we remain always sanctified and holy to God. For every Christian will fall short of the glory of God in thought, word, and deed.

Yes, we grow and mature in faith, by the leading of the Spirit, to recognize areas in our life that are still not pleasing to God, and then to correct that behavior, so that we continue to grow in faith, which is a sanctified life onto God.

Gospel Faith must always be a sanctified life onto Lord Jesus in righteousness and love, that is, if we are in The Faith of the Gospel.

A Gospel Faith always includes repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 20:20-21; Acts 26:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9), which is a complete change of mind and purpose by which we have already:

• Died to old master of sin (Romans 6:2),
• Put off the old man/Put on the new man” in righteousness (Colossians 3:9-10; Ephesians 4:20-32)
• Crucified the flesh (Galatians 5:24)
• Put to death the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13)

Instead of serving the old master of sinful passions, we now, by faith, have committed to follow Lord Jesus:

• To be his disciple, which is what a Christian is (Acts 11:26)
• As His disciple, we obey all things that Lord Jesus commands of us (Matthew 28:19-20)
• We listen to and follow Lord Jesus is evidence of the sheep who belong to Christ (John 10:26-28)
• We walk in the light (John 8:12; 1 John 1:6-7)
• We walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4)
• We live/walk/sow to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 5:24-25; Galatians 6:7-9)
• We are to be a living Sacrifice to Lord Jesus, which is how we worship him (Romans 12:1-2)
• We walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6)
• We follow in the steps of Lord Jesus (1 Peter 2:21)

Isn't that what sanctification means?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you [the believer] abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord

Therefore, sanctification can never be separated from a true faith in Lord Jesus by which God sanctifies us onto himself.

Does that mean a true believer in Lord Jesus never sins? I will let Scripture answer that:

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

1 John 3:7-9 (WEB) 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:6-14 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB) 24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge {{{HIS}}} people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalms 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Therefore, as a true believer in Lord Jesus, sin is never permitted by God; but we will sin in weakness. God is merciful, in that, God allows us time to repent of sins we do commit in weakness or error, and God will forgive any sins we do commit as faithful Christians. In this way, "The Faith of the Gospel" always is a sanctified life onto God, the very same faith we had when we first believed and by which we received the Spirit. However, we grow in that faith, we mature, become more experienced in living out our faith; that is, if we continue in the faith.

 

[zoidar]

Does a caterpillar upon realizing it is bound for a greater personification lose that personification simply because it still must act in the ways of a caterpillar? We are talking transition.

Hi timohyu, I like the analogy you gave. I will give the long version. I think my long version agrees with your response, but let me know if you see any disagreement.

A Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus is a sanctified life onto righteousness (Romans 6:19-22; 1 Thessalonians 4:2-8). That is the faith by which God sanctifies us onto himself.

2 Timothy 2:19 (WEB) 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”

Faith in Lord Jesus cannot be separated from a commitment to a sanctified life onto God by following Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love. If this is our faith, our mindset toward God then, when we do sin in weakness, God is faithful to forgive our sins. In this way, we remain always sanctified and holy to God. For every Christian will fall short of the glory of God in thought, word, and deed.

Yes, we grow and mature in faith, by the leading of the Spirit, to recognize areas in our life that are still not pleasing to God, and then to correct that behavior, so that we continue to grow in faith, which is a sanctified life onto God.

Gospel Faith must always be a sanctified life onto Lord Jesus in righteousness and love, that is, if we are in The Faith of the Gospel.

A Gospel Faith always includes repentance (2 Corinthians 7:10; Acts 20:20-21; Acts 26:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9), which is a complete change of mind and purpose by which we have already:

• Died to old master of sin (Romans 6:2),
• Put off the old man/Put on the new man” in righteousness (Colossians 3:9-10; Ephesians 4:20-32)
• Crucified the flesh (Galatians 5:24)
• Put to death the deeds of the body (Romans 8:13)

Instead of serving the old master of sinful passions, we now, by faith, have committed to follow Lord Jesus:

• To be his disciple, which is what a Christian is (Acts 11:26)
• As His disciple, we obey all things that Lord Jesus commands of us (Matthew 28:19-20)
• We listen to and follow Lord Jesus is evidence of the sheep who belong to Christ (John 10:26-28)
• We walk in the light (John 8:12; 1 John 1:6-7)
• We walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4)
• We live/walk/sow to the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4; Galatians 5:24-25; Galatians 6:7-9)
• We are to be a living Sacrifice to Lord Jesus, which is how we worship him (Romans 12:1-2)
• We walk as Jesus walked (1 John 2:4-6)
• We follow in the steps of Lord Jesus (1 Peter 2:21)

Isn't that what sanctification means?

1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (WEB) 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you [the believer] abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Hebrews 12:14-16 (WEB) 14 Follow after peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no man will see the Lord

Therefore, sanctification can never be separated from a true faith in Lord Jesus by which God sanctifies us onto himself.

Does that mean a true believer in Lord Jesus never sins? I will let Scripture answer that:

1 John 2:1-6 (WEB) My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

1 John 3:7-9 (WEB) 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

1 John 1:6-14 (WEB) 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB) 24 Let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. 26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge {{{HIS}}} people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalms 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Therefore, as a true believer in Lord Jesus, sin is never permitted by God; but we will sin in weakness. God is merciful, in that, God allows us time to repent of sins we do commit in weakness or error, and God will forgive any sins we do commit as faithful Christians. In this way, "The Faith of the Gospel" always is a sanctified life onto God, the very same faith we had when we first believed and by which we received the Spirit. However, we grow in that faith, we mature, become more experienced in living out our faith; that is, if we continue in the faith.

This is pretty much where I stand as well. If we sin and deny we are sinning how can there be forgiveness (1 John 1:8)? Then we are accepting our sin and living in sin. It's important to be honest to God about our sin, if there is a sin, then there is atonement for it (1 John 2:2).

Like I said to Abbalove, I don't think sanctification is only about living righteously, but having a clean heart. But how we live certainly effects our heart.

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
— Philippians 4:4-7

Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life.
— Proverbs 4:23

 

[AbbaLove]

I think it's possible to stop sinning. But it's hard for me to see that a Christian is able to live a whole life and never sinning, if that is what you mean by stop sinning.​

​

What do you think Jesus and Paul meant when they said, "stop sinning" ? Jesus told both the lame man that He healed to "Stop sinning or something worse could happen" and the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." That was before He told His disciples He would send them the Comforter, Counselor, Helper. Would Jesus have told the man and woman to stop sinnig if it wasn't possible?​

​

I was saved soon 13 years ago, heart washed clean. The very same week I sinned and my heart has not been clean since. Did I lose sanctification and salvation the same week I was saved? I hope not!

​

Prevalent Christian thinking it's impossible to stop sinning. Even priests and pastors apparently think it's impossible to stop sinning. Teaching their congregation that even our future sins are already forgiven before committed. So where's the incentive to stop sinning ?​

This teaching would seem to confirm why way too many Christians think it's just a matter of time before they sin again ... a vicious cycle.​

"He that is in us is Greater than he that is in the world" (worldly pleasures are so tempting)​

​

Too many Christians have one eye on the world too much of the time and too little time with the other eye on His Word. Difficult to live a sanctified (holy) life. Even more difficult when Christians misinterpret His Word that our future sins are forgiven even before committed.​

​

I have thought of myself of now being in a process of sanctification. Sanctification or holiness to me is having a clean heart. I think we can be more or less holy or sanctified and hopefully become fully sanctified. But you see it as an either or? Either you are sanctified or you are not? And if you aren't sanctified you won't be saved even you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
sins (plural) implies repentance of confessed sins leading to one's salvation ... not after salvation

1 Corinthians 6:11 (WEB)
that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor,

Romans 6:1-2 (WEB)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer?

​

 

[timothyu]

In spite of our occasional failures, if we are of the counter-culture of the Kingdom then we must walk the walk rather than just talk the talk to show our allegiance to the Kingdom rather than the self serving will of the world of man.. That has been made obvious when using discernment with those claiming to represent God within our churches. There is a difference between using God and letting God use us.

We were also made in the image of our fellow creatures, survival of the fittest and all that. Could we rise above that nature and understand why?

 

[AbbaLove]

I was saved soon 13 years ago, heart washed clean. The very same week I sinned and my heart has not been clean since. Did I lose sanctification and salvation the same week I was saved? I hope not!

When we confess our sin with a repentant heart - He is Faithful and Just to Forgive our sin.

It's not easy for me to believe that millions of Christians loose their salvation if they sin again after washed clean.
The fact that sin makes one feel like their heart is no longer clean is evidence of the renewing of one's mind.
Every born again Christian wants to stop sinning because having sinned there's such sorrow. (James 4:7)

“If anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use,
set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work” (2 Timothy 2:21).

We are to foregive others that have trespassed against us 7 times 70 when the offender has a repentant heart.
Is the Lord's Foregiving Mercy any less toward that of a repentant Christian seeking His foregiveness

If one finds it difficult to pray it's most likely because of unforegiveness and unconfessed sin.
​

 

[setst777]

This is pretty much where I stand as well. If we sin and deny we are sinning how can there be forgiveness (1 John 1:8)? Then we are accepting our sin and living in sin. It's important to be honest to God about our sin, if there is a sin, then there is atonement for it (1 John 2:2).

Very true. A sanctified life onto God is the manifestation of the person who is in "The Faith of the Gospel."

Like I said to Abbalove, I don't think sanctification is only about living righteously, but having a clean heart. But how we live certainly effects our heart.

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
— Philippians 4:4-7

Watch over your heart with all diligence,
For from it flow the springs of life.
— Proverbs 4:23

True. Sanctification, as a Christian, is to be separated onto God. That is what sanctification means: to be separated onto God, to purify ourselves before him.

We are separated/purified onto God (sanctified) when, in repentance and faith, we renounce the old master of sin that we use to slave for as part of this world, and now live a New Life of following Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love, living by His Spirit who indwells those who repent and believe.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who {{{belong to Christ}}} have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we [believers] live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.

For we can only have one master, and we have to choose whom we serve, which is sanctfication.

Matthew 6:24 (WEB) 24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can’t serve both God and Mammon.

Revelation 3:15-16 (WEB) 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.”

Luke 9:62 (WEB) 62 “No one, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for God’s Kingdom.”

When we put our faith in Lord Jesus in this way, God sanctifies us onto himself, and indwells us by His Spirit.

James 4:8-10 (WEB) 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners. Purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament, mourn, and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

As we live out our faith (which is a sanctified life onto God), we have a clean heart before God, and God forgives the faithful Christian when he does sin in weakness or error.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) 6 If we [believers] say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.