Justification and Sanctification ?

[Bible Highlighter]

Then you have the causal order backwards. All those are true, and "we do so because it is so". Doing so does not save us. Doing so demonstrates, even fulfills, what we are.

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you don’t like what God’s Word says, take it up with Him, my friend. The verses are clearly teaching we are responsible.

God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved. That’s a violation of not only the obvious goodness of God but the Scriptures in tons of places.

Again, see 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and see Jonah 3:6-10 for starters. Pretty straightforward and so there is no reason to continue to hold on to those extra Biblical Calvinistic books (that forces folks to look at things in the Bible through the Reformed lens). Just read the Bible with the help of the Spirit and throw away those books or turn away from looking at those Reformed online articles.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You did not. Nor did you answer my questions. Do you, or do you not, sin? Do you say you have no sin?

Already addressed this question in this thread. Go back a couple of pages.
But generally when I am asked this question, it is to divert away from the fact that one believes they can sin and still be saved on some level.

So what is your view of 1 John 1:8?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You did not.

So unless somebody rewrote MacArthur’s study Bible recently it is proof enough. But if don’t believe his own study Bible he clearly says we can take the mark of the beast and be saved and he says sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer. You can hear him say these things. John Piper actually admits he still sins in a video. The video clip is played back multiple times. It’s unmistakable.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you don’t like what God’s Word says, take it up with Him, my friend. The verses are clearly teaching we are responsible.

God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved. That’s a violation of not only the obvious goodness of God but the Scriptures in tons of places.

Again, see 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and see Jonah 3:6-10 for starters. Pretty straightforward and so there is no reason to continue to hold on to those extra Biblical Calvinistic books (that forces folks to look at things in the Bible through the Reformed lens). Just read the Bible with the help of the Spirit and throw away those books or by looking at their online articles.

You talk as though I said we are not responsible. That is ludicrous.

Where do you get, that I say God forces anyone to be saved? That is ludicrous. Does God force you to be born the first time?

You look at things through the self-determinism lens. You require it, or it makes no sense to you.

But start asking yourself, and keep asking yourself, WHY they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Ask yourself, WHY does anyone repent. But mostly, ask yourself WHY one person does one thing, and another does something else. And when you have answered that, as yourself WHY that happened, and so on. Maybe you will be simple-hearted enough to see that God began the whole thing. And mere chance had nothing to do with it. Or maybe you will still insist on self-determinism, in the face of the Grace of God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Already addressed this question in this thread. Go back a couple of pages.
But generally when I am asked this question, it is to divert away from the fact that one believes they can sin and still be saved on some level.

So what is your view of 1 John 1:8?

The 'old man' is there til the day our body stops. Get used to the fact that we need to keep putting sin to death.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So unless somebody rewrote MacArthur’s study Bible recently it is proof enough. But if don’t believe his own study Bible he clearly says we can take the mark of the beast and be saved and he says sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer. You can hear him say these things. John Piper actually admits he still sins in a video. The video clip is played back multiple times. It’s unmistakable.

That is not all you claim concerning them. THAT is my point. You have not proven them wrong. What's worse, you have not quoted (or video'd) them in what they are trying to say. The context is missing.

If you know them or know Calvinism or Reformed theology, you know that what you quote them to say is not all they are trying to say. And you say you don't sin?

 

[setst777]

Agree ... Isn't it actually God/Holy Spirit that leads one to a heart-felt need of turning from sin by repenting (Stop sinning ... Go and sin no more)

God draws all people (John 12:32) to repentance and faith in himself by means of the Gospel (Romans 10:17) and the convicting work of the Spirit (John 16:8). But the drawing is not irresistible:

Acts 7:51 (WEB) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Those who refuse to believe after the drawing of the Word and Spirit will not come to the Son.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Matthew 22:3 (NIV) He sent his servants to those who had been invited [those of Elect Israel] to the banquet to tell them to come, but {{they refused}} to come.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you refused!

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

It's GOD/Christ/Holy Spirit that first sanctifies a Believer.

Yes, God, Christ, the blood of Christ, and the Spirit all sanctifies the Believer. Sanctification is only possible if a sinner, because of the Gospel and convicting work of the Spirit, will renounce the darkness and then commit to walking in the light of righteousness. By faith we access the grace and power onto salvation. By this faith we sanctify (set apart) ourselves, on a human level to God, and accepts our repentant fait; in that, because of our faith, God sanctifies those who believe to himself.

2 Timothy 2:19-21 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light (repentance), and from the power of Satan unto God (repentance), that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

From beginning to end, that power of the Gospel to save is accessed and kept by faith in Lord Jesus.

Romans 1:16-17 (WEB) 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News of Christ, because it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first, and also for the Greek. 17 For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” [Habbakkuk 2:4]

1 Peter 1:5 (KJV) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we [those who believe: vs. 1) also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

The Spirit leads us into that sanctified life as we continue in the same faith by which God saves us. The Spirit leads as we, by faith, follow.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up

That work would not be possible without His atoning blood at Calvary. Although i'm not a Calvinist it's only GOD/Christ/Holy Spirit that leads and deserves ALL the credit-Glory that makes it possible for a born again Believer to live a Sanctified Life thereby obtaining eternal salvation.

Yes, God deserves all the credit for our salvation. And that salvation is only promised to those who believe.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited The Promises.

Hebrews 10:35-38 (WEB) 35 Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has a great reward. 36 For you need endurance so that, having done the will of God, you may receive The Promise

1 John 1:24-25 (WEB) 24 Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father. 25 This is The Promise which he promised us, the eternal life.

James 1:12 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

Revelation 21:7 (WEB) He who overcomes, I will give him these things. I will be his God, and he will be my son.

Galatians 3:22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Sanctified Followers of Christ would never boast or even see themselves as a sacred holy righteous vessel. GOD forbide they ever think of themselves something as something special because of their own doing. They are a bond servant (slave) to carrying out HIS righteousness only possible with the abiding leading of the Holy Spirit being an obedient servant ...

It is never pride to submit one's life in humility to Lord Jesus who loves us and gave his life for us (John 3:16).

John 14:15-17 (Young’s Literal Translation)15 `If you love me, keep my commands, 16 and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age; 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

The Spirit surely indwells the Spirit, but the believer is still responsible to sow to the Spirit without giving up to receive eternal life by the Spirit. Nothing prideful about our responsibity to walk by the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us (the believers) not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

But who is there among you, having a servant plowing or keeping sheep, that will say when he comes in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down at the table,’ and will not rather tell him, ‘Prepare my supper, clothe yourself properly, and serve me, while I eat and drink. Afterward you shall eat and drink’? Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded? I think not. Even so you also, when you have done all the things that are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants. We have done our duty.’”​

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!​

Perhaps we all can agree that there is a tad too much of "me and my theology" that pervades today's modern Cristianity. The tendency being to consider that a Believer has been justified (OSAS) ... even if they don't quite see Calvery as an initial work of sanctification..

Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB) 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Matthew 10:38 (WEB) 38 He who doesn’t take his cross and follow after me isn’t worthy of me.

Luke 19:17 (WEB) “He said to him, ‘Well done, you good servant! Because you were found faithful with very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.’

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Matthew 25:34-46 (WEB)
34 Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you took me in. 36 I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you a drink? 38 When did we see you as a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?’
40 “The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’
45 “Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[timothyu]

God does know who are His

At one time before Jesus God knew who were His because He proclaimed them His people. The rest belonged to the rebellious elohim whom God was systematically destroying the people of. With Jesus the elohim were defeated, so it was no longer necessary to stick to one people but open the Kingdom to all.

 

[setst777]

No, my friend. MacArthur preaches a double message. John MacArthur pretends to teach holy living as a requirement for salvation, but he really does not believe that way according to the Bible. The Lordship Salvation doctrine he popularized is a Trojan horse.

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”​

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3​

John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...​

(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:

Here is John Piper (Another Calvinist) teaching he can sin and still be saved, as well.

John MacArthur was put in a tight spot with that question because the Passage in question about leading to death definitely involves believers. Obviously, since John MacArthur is a Calvinist, he can't say that a believer can lose his salvation because he believes faith and salvation are guaranteed by God.

So, John MacArthur, in answering that question has in mind the following Scripture:

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 (WEB) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, that one has his father’s wife. 2 You are arrogant, and didn’t mourn instead, that he who had done this deed might be removed from among you. 3 For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

However, I have listened to hundreds of his sermons since the early 1980's, and I can say with certainty that John MacArthur definitely taught that a true Christian does not live in any sin. John is very tough on sin and living a sanctified life onto God. However, because he is a Calvinist, he has to say that those who call themselves "Christians" who do live in sin could not be genuine sheep of Christ Jesus.

John MacArthur also teaches that any sins we commit in this life can be forgiven if we truly repent and confess our sins - even adultery, murder, etc. I also believe this.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John MacArthur was put in a tight spot with that question because the Passage in question about leading to death definitely involves believers. Obviously, since John MacArthur is a Calvinist, he can't say that a believer can lose his salvation because he believes faith and salvation are guaranteed by God.

So, John MacArthur, in answering that question has in mind the following Scripture:

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 (WEB) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, that one has his father’s wife. 2 You are arrogant, and didn’t mourn instead, that he who had done this deed might be removed from among you. 3 For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

However, I have listened to hundreds of his sermons since the early 1980's, and I can say with certainty that John MacArthur definitely taught that a true Christian does not live in any sin. John is very tough on sin and living a sanctified life onto God. However, because he is a Calvinist, he has to say that those who call themselves "Christians" who do live in sin could not be genuine sheep of Christ Jesus.

John MacArthur also teaches that any sins we commit in this life can be forgiven if we truly repent and confess our sins - even adultery, murder, etc. I also believe this.

Again, it does not match up with his words on justifying various sins that I shown to you.
So if you teach you can commit suicide and or take the mark of the beast and be saved, then one can understand this to mean you can do other kinds of serious sins (like murder, fornication, etc.), and be saved. Once you open the door to the thinking of a believer thinking they can commit serious sin and still be saved on any level, then holiness is no more. He also says that sin does not lead to spiritual death for the believer. So that means a license to sin (despite whatever holy talk he has said before). What he said before on holy living does not matter if he is also saying you can commit serious sin and be saved, too. Again, he is preaching a double message that is contradictory. Jesus warned how committing certain sins can lead to spiritual death or condemnation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62).

 

[setst777]

Again, it does not match up with his words on justifying various sins that I shown to you.
So if you teach you can commit suicide and or take the mark of the beast and be saved, then one can understand this to mean you can do other kinds of serious sins and be saved. Once you open the door to the thinking of a believer thinking they can commit serious sin and still be saved on any level, then holiness is no more. He also says that sin does not lead to spiritual death for the believer. So that means a license to sin (despite whatever holy talk he has said before). What he said before on holy living does not matter if he is also saying you can sin and be saved, too. Again, he is preaching a double message that is contradictory.

True, your one several minute clip does not match up with hundreds of other videos I have watched on actual hour-long sermons over a period of decades. The reason I gave is obvious. I do not defend Calvinism, but I am not here to unfairly bash John MacArthur either. Blessings.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 (WEB) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles, that one has his father’s wife. 2 You are arrogant, and didn’t mourn instead, that he who had done this deed might be removed from among you. 3 For I most certainly, as being absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as though I were present, judged him who has done this thing. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 is not teaching what the Eternal Security folk desire it to mean. They say that he is still saved even while in his fornication, and excommunication. But this passage is saying he is not saved, and he must be delivered to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit MAY be saved in the day of the Lord’s return for His people (Seeing Paul believed that Jesus would return in his lifetime). It is not a guarantee that he would be saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

True, your one several minute clip does not match up with hundreds of other videos I have watched on actual hour-long sermons over a period of decades. The reason I gave is obvious. I do not defend Calvinism, but I am not here to unfairly bash John MacArthur either. Blessings.

Those hundreds of videos is just a front or cover for his license to sin belief. What I shared is unmistakable in regards to his belief.
Two sources are from his own mouth. Another source is from his own study bible. I have his study bible and I can confirm it. The source about one of his church members committing suicide (and him being sued in court over it because they state that a believer who commits suicide is saved) is from a general non-religious website. So no. I don’t buy his cover story of teaching holy living.

Here are some quotes from John MacArthur‘s books:

Yes, someone says, but can’t Christians put themselves outside God’s grace? What about those who commit abominable sins? Don't they nullify the work of redemption in themselves? Don't they forfeit the love of God? Certainly not ... it's preposterous to think that we can forfeit it [salvation] by anything we do. (John MacArthur, The Love of God, Word Publishing, 1996, p. 159).

Believers will often fall into sin, but their sin is not more powerful than God's grace. (John MacArthur, Saved Without A Doubt, Chariot Victor Publishing, 1982, p. 45).

Words bolded above are added for emphasis to see what MacArthur is really teaching.
Even one Calvinist here (Claire) is defending how John Piper can still do his sins and yet God does not see his sins (even when he does them). This is what most Calvinists really believe if they are honest about all of their teachings.

John MacArthur says that it is a settled fact that the believer is imputed righteousness and forgiveness forever (all eternity).

Listen to his audio clip of him saying that here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/John-MacArthur-myth-forgiven-forever.mp3

John MacArthur says John Calvin is his hero.

John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. John Calvin believed in infant damnation. Meaning, he believed some innocent babies are in hell. John Calvin believed infant baptism.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nope not the same.

It is called atonement and mediation the fundamentals of the NC in His blood.

There is now no condemnation... even now and every now.

Try reading Romans 8:1 in the King James Bible and not a Modern Translation.
It says there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

He saves to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, utterly) He is better.

Hebrews 7:25
”Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

Must be read in context to verses like this in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:26
”For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,“

And passages like this:

Hebrews 12:14-15
14 ”Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

This is saying that the Lord will write His laws in those who desire to be faithful to Him, and if they are faithful, their lawless deeds will be no more. Hebrews 10 does not say you can be unfaithful at any point and your lawless deeds will be no more.

Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

Hence, why you have to confess and forsake sin to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Peace with God!

In Him,

Bill

That passage in Hebrews 10 says we are to have our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience.
But more importantly, if you skip down towards the end of Hebrews 10, it says this:

”Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Hebrews 10:38).

So you have a choice. A person can draw back.
Notice it says IF any man draw back and it does not say, and any man I have not chosen to be my Elect will draw back.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,

Holy living would be the result of God.... he is the cause.

Better known as regeneration or the new birth and is exclusively part of the NC.


I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

He puts His spirt in us the the express purpose to cause us to walk in our statues and obey his rules...

This would be another discussion on a different topic.

Hebrews:

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

New heart God writes His law on it... = New desires

We no longer have to teach our neighbor "Know the Lord" ... they will know him and desire Him based upon his work of "putting and writing"

That is His purpose in doing His work, and His purposes can not fail.

In Him,

Bill

Holy living is not possible if one says the same words as John Piper in that he still does his sins and they are not on him because he does not have them anymore. Listen to the video at minute 3:36. The clip is played of him saying this insane nonsense repeatedly or several times.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You talk as though I said we are not responsible. That is ludicrous.

I am not talking about chastening here. Chastening in your belief system is not real chastening because the goal of chastening is to get a person to stop sinning. Most Christians today believe they will always sin this side of Heaven. So chastening does not really make any sense in their particular worldview. It would be like kicking a dog across the room because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem in the fact that it is sick. Why kick the animal? It makes no sense.

When I talk about not being responsible in the sin and still be saved type belief: It is in the sense of one believes there is no real consequences like hellfire for one committing serious sin like lying, fornication, coveting, etcetera. I say this because most believers in your camp wave around 1 John 1:8 as some kind of banner flag to sin and still be saved.

Where do you get, that I say God forces anyone to be saved? That is ludicrous. Does God force you to be born the first time?

Well, the first birth is not entirely God’s choice because it also involved humans making free will choices to have a child together or to take the chance at having a child through a free will choice to partake in being intimate with one another. In fact, it was a command to be fruitful and multiply in the beginning. But as we know man can disobey God’s commands. It’s never God’s will that we ever disobey His commands. Now, can God accomplish His will despite man’s disobedience? Yes, but it is never God’s ultimate intention or desire that man disobeys Him.

You look at things through the self-determinism lens. You require it, or it makes no sense to you.

No, it’s called reading the Bible and common sense. If you lay the blame on God for salvation then you are blaming God for all the evil and the suffering in the world. You are also saying that the Judgment is a farce or joke because men are not really being punished for what they have done wrong but because God decreed sin upon them even though the Judgment says they will be judged because they (the individuals) did evil. You have things all twisted around and you cannot read the Bible correctly that sets up a series of contradictions (because of your Reformed lens). I say this because you believe God chooses who is saved and not saved. If a person is saved they are not going to live that sinful life, right? So it is God’s choice who sins and does not in your belief system.

Another example of a contradiction in the Bible because of your belief in Calvinism:

God gets angry at the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11).
But this does not make sense in Calvinism. In Reformed thinking, God predetermines ultimately who is saved and unsaved.
So if that is the case, then why is God angry at His own choices? Why doesn’t God just elect certain wicked people He is angry at to salvation and change them to no longer be wicked?

It makes no sense. In Calvinism: God is angry at His own indecision. He can simply click His fingers and make them saved and to live a holy life and not be wicked anymore.

But start asking yourself, and keep asking yourself, WHY they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why the wicked perish is because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.
It says that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. So you are not reading the verse right. You are ignoring the word “MIGHT” in the verse in relation to salvation.

Ask yourself, WHY does anyone repent. But mostly, ask yourself WHY one person does one thing, and another does something else. And when you have answered that, as yourself WHY that happened, and so on. Maybe you will be simple-hearted enough to see that God began the whole thing. And mere chance had nothing to do with it. Or maybe you will still insist on self-determinism, in the face of the Grace of God.

Again, you are reading the Bible with a Reformed lens and not simply and plainly as it is written. Just let the Bible speak for itself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You talk as though I said we are not responsible. That is ludicrous.

If God is the one who determines who is saved and not saved, then… “Yes.”
Man is not responsible for their ultimate fate according to Calvinism.
It’s called UNconditional Election for a reason. They are not elected based on any conditions within the individual.

 

[Rapture Bound]

I did not write the Bible. God did. If you don’t like what God’s Word says, take it up with Him, my friend. The verses are clearly teaching we are responsible.

God does not force some to be saved and others to not be saved. That’s a violation of not only the obvious goodness of God but the Scriptures in tons of places.

Again, see 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and see Jonah 3:6-10 for starters. Pretty straightforward and so there is no reason to continue to hold on to those extra Biblical Calvinistic books (that forces folks to look at things in the Bible through the Reformed lens). Just read the Bible with the help of the Spirit and throw away those books or turn away from looking at those Reformed online articles.

Bible Highlighter - it's my firm conviction that the scriptural truth here lies somewhere between two extremes ... your ["LOS" - Loss of Salvation] position and Mark's [5-point Calvinist] position. And since those who take the following position [the "middle ground"] stated below [the position which I embrace] are usually, although certainly not always, 1-point Calvinists [the "P" of T.U.L.I.P. - the inevitable preservation of the elect by God] they are considered the "minority" position and are consequently often misunderstood and rejected by most within professing Christianity.

(1) God has granted and enabled all men to make the choice [by virtue of the free moral agency He has sovereignly chosen to bestowed upon them] to receive [by faith] or reject [by unbelief] Christ's substitutional atoning work on their behalf.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that ***[whosoever]*** believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:15, "And that he died ***[for all]***, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

(2) God has promised to preserve all those who have placed their faith in [trusted exclusively in] Christ's substitutional atoning work on their behalf for the forgiveness of their sins. Not a single blood-bought child of God will ever everlastingly perish in the Lake of Fire ... they will never "lose" or "forfeit" the eternal life that they had received as a free gift.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 :

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

24 ***[Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.]***

2 Timothy 1:12, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that ***[which I have committed]*** unto him against that day.

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

All those who have been [past tense] justified by placing their faith in Christ's atoning work will be glorified [future tense] ... they will receive the redemption of their mortal bodies in Heaven.

 

[Clare73]

If God is the one who determines who is saved and not saved, then… “Yes.”
Man is not responsible for their ultimate fate according to Calvinism.
It’s called UNconditional Election for a reason. They are not elected based on any conditions within the individual.

Is Mark not talking about sin, for which we are responsible, while you are talking about salvation, for which we had nothing to do?

 

[Clare73]

Bible Highlighter - it's my firm conviction that the scriptural truth here lies somewhere between two extremes ... your ["LOS" - Loss of Salvation] position and Mark's [5-point Calvinist] position. And since those who take the following position [the "middle ground"] stated below [the position which I embrace] are usually, although certainly not always, 1-point Calvinists [the "P" of T.U.L.I.P. - the inevitable preservation of the elect by God] they are considered the "minority" position and are consequently often misunderstood and rejected by most within professing Christianity.
(1) God has granted and enabled all men to make the choice [by virtue of the free moral agency He has sovereignly chosen to bestowed upon them] to receive [by faith] or reject [by unbelief] Christ's substitutional atoning work on their behalf.

Free moral agency, a philosophical concept, means the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

However, the will is governed by the disposition, which in fallen man does not prefer to submit to God's governance of him in all things.
And fallen man does not freely choose what he does not prefer.
So free will in fallen man simply guarantees he will not, because he does not want to, choose to submit to God's governance of him in all things (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5 . . .carefully consider the import of these Scriptures).

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that ***[whosoever]*** believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
2 Corinthians 5:15, "And that he died ***[for all]***, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(2) God has promised to preserve all those who have placed their faith in [trusted exclusively in] Christ's substitutional atoning work on their behalf for the forgiveness of their sins.

True. . .and no fallen man can/will do that because he is opposed to God's, instead of self's, governance of him in all things.

Not a single blood-bought child of God will ever everlastingly perish in the Lake of Fire ... they will never "lose" or "forfeit" the eternal life that they had received as a free gift.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 :
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 ***[Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.]***

2 Timothy 1:12, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that ***[which I have committed]*** unto him against that day.

Romans 8:30, "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

All those who have been [past tense] justified by placing their faith in Christ's atoning work will be glorified [future tense] ... they will receive the redemption of their mortal bodies in Heaven.