Justification and Sanctification ?

Mark Quayle · May 12, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

As for the mention of 1 Timothy 1:15:

When Paul said he is the chief of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:15, he was referring to his old life before he became a Christian.

Context:

”And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did itignorantly in unbelief.” (1 Timothy 1:12-13).

So as we can see in this above passage in context, Paul was BEFORE a blasphemer. BEFORE is referring to his old life before he became a Christian. Paul is not the chief of sinners in regards to describing his life as a Christian. A person who is out to defend their sin on some level with the thinking they are still magically saved will only twist the context and meaning of what Paul said here. In fact, this reminds me of the time I have talked with Christians who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and they still would be saved while doing so because they have a belief alone in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Clearly this is not what Paul was talking about. Jude 1:4 warns us about those believers who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality).

As for the mention of 1 John 1:8:

1 John 1:8 is one of the most misused verses to justify some level of sin today.

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level.

“If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).

Note: The words in brackets in blue is my commentary to the text above.

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Just so you know ahead, nothing I say here means that I support anyone's notion of license to sin, and I believe in "IF saved, always saved". That is, nobody but the Elect become regenerated, and the Elect will not ultimately fall away.

You say, above, "1 John 1:8 is one of the most misused verses to justify some level of sin today." Yet, you misuse it, by using one 'translation' (paraphrase) to say one thing, and another to say something very different. You add to one —“If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”— as a condemnation against those who, as you suppose, are saying that sin does not exist, after quoting the NET (as if it was any authority) to prove Eternal Security wrong. But neither use, whether true or not, is what the text says.

You are correct, that the Greek uses the present tense for "have no sin", in verse 8. I would add that the present tense here is continuous action, (as in, "are not having sin"), which is a significant difference, though I don't see it as pivotal to your take nor mine. Verse 10 is well translated as "have not sinned" as it indicates past action, but to draw from it that the sinning has not continued —that sin is over and done with— is not implied by the Greek perfect tense. It only means that sinning did indeed occur in the past. In fact, to say that sin is over and done with is to directly oppose verse 8.

Verse 9 is particularly interesting to me. I'm no Greek authority, but I do know one, who says that the grammar and tenses of the Greek in verse 9 DO say that the forgiveness is indeed contingent on the confession, but that upon confession the forgiveness has already happened. Thus —"If we are confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins, and to already have cleansed us from all unrighteousness." (Note that this man was not Reformed nor Calvinist.)

This following, I find necessary to say, in the context of this discussion. Perhaps, for some of us, what you take as 'excusing sin', or maybe self-justification of sinfulness, is only actually their awareness of the depravity of the 'old man', and old ways of thinking, still inhabiting their mind and members. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can fail to see, even in their own heart, their constant tendency toward self-exaltation and opposition toward God. It is in this that I find the Arminianistic, and Wesleyan, theologies to fail catastrophically. It is because of the insistence on self-determinism that I find such a distaste for the notion of free-will, quite apart from its considerable illogic.

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

setst777 said:
Is faith a "genuine faith" if one has not first repented, denying the old master, and now confess Jesus as Lord of his life?

Previously addressed. . .

Faith is repentance. . ."a turning, a mighty change of mind and heart," from unbelief to belief.

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

setst777 said:
You wrote earlier that repentance is the origin of faith.

Clare73 said:
Repentence (turning, change of mind) is the origin of faith.

If a genuine faith results in repentance, obedience, and commitment, then is this genuine faith a sanctifying of ourselves to God before one work is ever done?

Since is a faith that results in repentance, commitment, and obedience is a genuine faith doesn't that mean that this faith is a commitment to God (a setting ourselves apart onto God) sanctification before one work is ever done? Why or why not?

Sanctification only means "to be set apart onto God." Works done from sanctification is not sanctification itself; rather, the works done are the acts that follow sanctification.

Sanctification does not describe all the works done after we sanctify ourselves to God, only that we have set apart ourselves to God by faith.

Works of sanctification come forth from first sanctifying ourselves to God by faith before one work is ever done.

Previously addressed. . .

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

setst777 said:
That is not what sanctification means. Sanctification is not the works done, but is being set apart for a purpose before one work is ever done.

<<
Sanctification literally means "to set apart for special use or purpose", that is, to make holy or sacred.

Sacredness - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

>>

Previously addressed. . .

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

setst777 said:
So true. We sanctify ourselves to God by faith, confessing "Jesus is Lord" because of the Gospel Word.

Faith comes by hearing the Word about Christ (Romans 10:17).

When the believer confesses that Jesus is Lord of his life (Romans 10:9) after hearing the Word, that is when he sanctifies (sets himself apart) as a slave of Lord Jesus before one work is ever done.

To these who possess this genuine faith, God then sanctifies (sets apart) the believer onto himself, justifying the believer by the blood of Lord Jesus, and indwelling the true believer by His Spirit.

What follows our confession of faith that "Jesus is Lord" (sanctification), is to now live out that sanctification by following Lord Jesus into a life of righteousness and love, living by God's Word and Spirit.

I believe we are first saved by God’s grace through faith without works in Initial Salvation.
So I agree we can be saved before one work is ever done.
But I also believe there is a secondary aspect of salvation we need to continue in of which I believe the Bible describes as Sanctification.

Sanctify:

John 17:17

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Again, I do not see these words above in Scripture saying LIVE out your sanctification. It simply says sanctify involving the process of making ourselves holy. We are to sanctify or cleanse (wash, or make holy) our life by the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture). This is a continual process. We have to keep putting the Word on the inside of us in loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and by loving our neighbor as ourselves. This is the most plainest way to read the text above. I am not trying to insert anything into it. It merely says I can sanctify myself by Scripture and the goal of that is to be without blemish and to be holy and without spot or wrinkle. This takes time and it is not an overnight process. All believers through time needed to grow and learn to love God in their walk with Him. I mean, can we honestly say we are loving all our neighbors like we should?

Now, I also agree to an extent with you that we are to sanctify (cleanse) ourselves to God (i.e., make a dedication in renewing or transforming our minds and prove what is the acceptable will of God is). David asked for a clean heart by God and a right spirit. We need to sanctify the Lord our God in our hearts.

1 Peter 3:15

”But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts:”

I see this as a rededicating to the Lord.

This can be done when a person first comes to the Lord, or when they get off the path. They decide to dedicate themselves to Christ and make Him Lord of their life and say ”no” to all ungodliness and sin and serve Jesus because of what He has done for them in His love (Which was expressed upon His sufferings and by His death upon the cross). I see this as a part of God’s grace. When we set out to renew our minds or be transformed in our thinking for God, we are doing so because we most likely messed up, and want to dedicate our lives to Him in everything we do and please Him in all things to His glory and not our own.

So I disagree with your conclusion on Sanctification. It is incomplete. While Sanctification (Washing/Making holy) can have different applications, I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification’s primarily teaching is describing the secondary aspect of salvation to live a holy life over the whole course of our life (as a believer). Grace is what helps us to get there. God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and to live righteously in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). God’s grace can help us to labor more abundantly than others (1 Corinthians 15:10). Just like the woman who loved Jesus very much by her anointing Jesus’ feet with her tears. She loved much because she was forgiven much. She realized the greatness of God’s grace that moved her naturally to love in her actions.

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Just so you know ahead, nothing I say here means that I support anyone's notion of license to sin, and I believe in "IF saved, always saved". That is, nobody but the Elect become regenerated, and the Elect will not ultimately fall away.

You say, above, "1 John 1:8 is one of the most misused verses to justify some level of sin today." Yet, you misuse it, by using one 'translation' (paraphrase) to say one thing, and another to say something very different. You add to one —“If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”— as a condemnation against those who, as you suppose, are saying that sin does not exist, after quoting the NET (as if it was any authority) to prove Eternal Security wrong. But neither use, whether true or not, is what the text says.

You are correct, that the Greek uses the present tense for "have no sin", in verse 8. I would add that the present tense here is continuous action, (as in, "are not having sin"), which is a significant difference, though I don't see it as pivotal to your take nor mine. Verse 10 is well translated as "have not sinned" as it indicates past action, but to draw from it that the sinning has not continued —that sin is over and done with— is not implied by the Greek perfect tense. It only means that sinning did indeed occur in the past. In fact, to say that sin is over and done with is to directly oppose verse 8.

Verse 9 is particularly interesting to me. I'm no Greek authority, but I do know one, who says that the grammar and tenses of the Greek in verse 9 DO say that the forgiveness is indeed contingent on the confession, but that upon confession the forgiveness has already happened. Thus —"If we are confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins, and to already have cleansed us from all unrighteousness." (Note that this man was not Reformed nor Calvinist.)

This following, I find necessary to say, in the context of this discussion. Perhaps, for some of us, what you take as 'excusing sin', or maybe self-justification of sinfulness, is only actually their awareness of the depravity of the 'old man', and old ways of thinking, still inhabiting their mind and members. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can fail to see, even in their own heart, their constant tendency toward self-exaltation and opposition toward God. It is in this that I find the Arminianistic, and Wesleyan, theologies to fail catastrophically. It is because of the insistence on self-determinism that I find such a distaste for the notion of free-will, quite apart from its considerable illogic.

Look. One of the first deceptions or lies of the devil was to get Eve to believe she and her husband would not die if they disobeyed God’s command. 1 John 3:4 says sin is the breaking of the Law. So the devil wants people to believe the lie that they can sin and still be saved. Makes sense, right? 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil, and Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This is what is deceptive about many I have heard in Christianity today. They appear to be for holy living but in reality they teach a double message that they can sin and not die. They think it is the gospel.

Be honest with yourself. Jesus did not sound like He was promoting the popular sin and still be saved belief today in Matthew 7:21-23. He told those believers He never knew to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. They justified the idea that they can sin and still be saved. So if 1 John 1:8 is all you got and you are betting your chips on that verse along with a few other out of context readings of a few others (like Romans 7:14-24), then I would say that is a huge gamble that is not going to really pay off for anyone.

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Just so you know ahead, nothing I say here means that I support anyone's notion of license to sin, and I believe in "IF saved, always saved". That is, nobody but the Elect become regenerated, and the Elect will not ultimately fall away.

You say, above, "1 John 1:8 is one of the most misused verses to justify some level of sin today." Yet, you misuse it, by using one 'translation' (paraphrase) to say one thing, and another to say something very different. You add to one —“If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”— as a condemnation against those who, as you suppose, are saying that sin does not exist, after quoting the NET (as if it was any authority) to prove Eternal Security wrong. But neither use, whether true or not, is what the text says.

You are correct, that the Greek uses the present tense for "have no sin", in verse 8. I would add that the present tense here is continuous action, (as in, "are not having sin"), which is a significant difference, though I don't see it as pivotal to your take nor mine. Verse 10 is well translated as "have not sinned" as it indicates past action, but to draw from it that the sinning has not continued —that sin is over and done with— is not implied by the Greek perfect tense. It only means that sinning did indeed occur in the past. In fact, to say that sin is over and done with is to directly oppose verse 8.

Verse 9 is particularly interesting to me. I'm no Greek authority, but I do know one, who says that the grammar and tenses of the Greek in verse 9 DO say that the forgiveness is indeed contingent on the confession, but that upon confession the forgiveness has already happened. Thus —"If we are confessing our sins, He is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins, and to already have cleansed us from all unrighteousness." (Note that this man was not Reformed nor Calvinist.)

This following, I find necessary to say, in the context of this discussion. Perhaps, for some of us, what you take as 'excusing sin', or maybe self-justification of sinfulness, is only actually their awareness of the depravity of the 'old man', and old ways of thinking, still inhabiting their mind and members. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can fail to see, even in their own heart, their constant tendency toward self-exaltation and opposition toward God. It is in this that I find the Arminianistic, and Wesleyan, theologies to fail catastrophically. It is because of the insistence on self-determinism that I find such a distaste for the notion of free-will, quite apart from its considerable illogic.

You said, I quote:
”no Reformed or Calvinist that I know of, excuses sin.”

Yet, I proven this to be false. I have shown how both John MacArthur and John Piper teach that they can sin and still be saved (Which is an excuse to sin). John Piper says he still does his sins and yet Jesus does not see them. John MacArthur says that suicide and taking the mark of the beast will not lead to spiritual death. This again is an excuse of sin. I could go into Paul Washer if you like. He wrote a PDF document saying we are sinners and yet saved. So yeah. You were wrong on this point.

They are not teaching holy living but a license to sin.

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
Colossians 1:22 says that Jesus will present us before The Father holy, blameless, and beyond reproach. Now I’m not saying that this means we can use this as a license to sin but our holiness comes from nowhere other than Christ’s sacrifice.

Not true.

We are not to be deceived on this matter written below.

1 John 3:7 says,
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
Colossians 1:22 says that Jesus will present us before The Father holy, blameless, and beyond reproach. Now I’m not saying that this means we can use this as a license to sin but our holiness comes from nowhere other than Christ’s sacrifice.

If that was a person’s sole righteousness, then they can in theory turn God’s grace into a license to sin. You cannot have it both ways. Either holy living plays a part or it doesn’t. Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously in this present world. So His grace could not a means of taking away present and or future sin. I mean, what do you do with 1 John 1:9? It says if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. But to you, the sacrifice and believing in that is how you are forgiven or saved. I choose to believe rather verses like 1 John 1:9 and not men in the pulpit who make up stupid sayings that don’t exist in the Bible like, “Believe on the finished work of the cross alone is how we are saved.” That’s not even a saying in the Bible. They made it up.

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Look. One of the first deceptions or lies of the devil was to get Eve to believe she and her husband would not die if they disobeyed God’s command. 1 John 3:4 says sin is the breaking of the Law. So the devil wants people to believe the lie that they can sin and still be saved. Makes sense, right? 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil, and Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This is what is deceptive about many I have heard in Christianity today. They appear to be for holy living but in reality they teach a double message that they can sin and not die. They think it is the gospel.

Be honest with yourself. Jesus did not sound like He was promoting the popular sin and still be saved belief today in Matthew 7:21-23. He told those believers He never knew to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. They justified the idea that they can sin and still be saved. So if 1 John 1:8 is all you got and you are betting your chips on that verse along with a few other out of context readings of a few others (like Romans 7:14-24), then I would say that is a huge gamble that is not going to really pay off for anyone.

Wow! The word of God is null and void. . .not to be reconciled with all Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

Clare73 said:
Wow! The word of God is null and void. . .not to be reconciled with all Scripture.

He is sufficient to cover past sins only if we confess and forsake them (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus was never meant to be an eliminator of our present sins and or future sins by a belief alone in Him. Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality). John Piper says he still does sins but the Lord cannot see them because He does not have them anymore (and yet Piper says he still does them). That’s not grace, but that’s a license to do evil under God’s grace. Titus 2:11-12 teaches that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. But if your present and future sins are no more by a belief on Jesus, there is zero incentive to live holy or to treat sin as leading to death. Again, the Garden. The devil’s deception. Most today are buying into his lie today. Why do you not see the problem here is beyond me. Why would one of the lies of the devil in the Garden be true today? It makes no sense. Then again, sin is enticing to men and so they will defend it at all costs (even despite what the Scriptures say).

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

Clare73 said:
Wow! The word of God is null and void. . .not to be reconciled with all Scripture.

Listen to John Piper here saying how he still does sins but God does not see them because He does not have them anymore.

BBAS 64 · May 12, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Listen to John Piper here saying how he still does sins but God does not see them because He does not have them anymore.

Man do I love Piper

Ummm "we know" sir do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Lets look at the verse:

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Takes away- Verb

Thayer Definition:
1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease

No not magic silly it is a verb an action word something Jesus does.

Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Peace with God!

In Him

Bill

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Man do I love Piper

Ummm "we know" sir do you have a mouse in your pocket?

So you agree with Piper saying that he still does his sins and yet God does not see them? How is that not a violation of the lie the devil gave Eve in that she and her husband would not die if they disobeyed God’s command? Even Jesus taught that certain sins can lead to hell or condemnation (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, etcetera).

BBAS 64 · May 12, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
So you agree with Piper saying that he still does his sins and yet God does not see them? How is that not a violation of the lie the devil gave Eve in that she and her husband would not die if they disobeyed God’s command? Even Jesus taught that certain sins can lead to hell or condemnation (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, etcetera).

Nope not the same.

It is called atonement and mediation the fundamentals of the NC in His blood.

There is now no condemnation... even now and every now.

He saves to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, utterly) He is better.

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Peace with God!

In Him,

Bill

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Man do I love Piper

Ummm "we know" sir do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Lets look at the verse:

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Takes away- Verb

Thayer Definition:
1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
1a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones
1b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand
1c) to draw up: a fish
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
3a) to move from its place
3b) to take off or away what is attached to anything
3c) to remove
3d) to carry off, carry away with one
3e) to appropriate what is taken
3f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force
3g) to take and apply to any use
3h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence
3i) cause to cease

No not magic silly it is a verb an action word something Jesus does.

Rom 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Peace with God!

In Him

Bill

Jesus taking away the sins of the world is in reference to the “provisional atonement.” It’s not saying everyone is saved unless one believes in Universalism. The provisional atonement is like God paying the price so He could write you a check to cancel out your debts. But you would have cash those checks and pay off those you were in debt to. Granted, I know Calvinists take the world as referring to the Elect but that does not compute. World and the elect believers are clearly different things.

Romans 4:7 is talking about forgiveness of past sins and not sins you are currently are doing or your future sins. That would be turning God’s grace into a license for immortality (See Jude 1:4).

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
He is sufficient to cover past sins only if we confess and forsake them (Proverbs 28:13). Jesus was never meant to be an eliminator of our present sins and or future sins by a belief alone in Him. Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality). John Piper says he still does sins but the Lord cannot see them because He does not have them anymore (and yet Piper says he still does them).

Is that what Mark Quayle is presenting?

Or is that a misrepresentation of him?

Bible Highlighter said:
Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God’s grace into lasciviousness (i.e., a license to sin or immorality). John Piper says he still does sins but the Lord cannot see them because He does not have them anymore (and yet Piper says he still does them). That's not grace, but that’s a license to do evil under God’s grace. Titus 2:11-12 teaches that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. But if your present and future sins are no more by a belief on Jesus, there is zero incentive to live holy or to treat sin as leading to death. Again, the Garden.

The devil’s deception. Most today are buying into his lie today. Why do you not see the problem here is beyond me. Why would one of the lies of the devil in the Garden be true today? It makes no sense. Then again, sin is enticing to men and so they will defend it at all costs (even despite what the Scriptures say).
Listen to John Piper here saying how he still does sins but God does not see them because He does not have them anymore.

I don't need John Piper to tell me that believers are not sinless, I have the testimony of the NT for that (1 Jn 1:8-10).

setst777 · May 12, 2023

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed. . .

Faith is repentance. . ."a turning, a mighty change of mind and heart," from unbelief to belief.

What you are describing is sanctification. There can be no saving faith unless it involves sanctifying ourselves onto our Lord - a commitment to turn away from the old master, and to now follow our rightful Master, Lord Jesus. That is sanctification.

Once we believe like this, then we now live out our faith in a sanctified life before God by the same faith we had when we first believed.

Clare73 · May 12, 2023

setst777 said:
What you are describing is sanctification. There can be no saving faith unless it involves sanctifying ourselves onto our Lord - a commitment to turn away from the old master, and to now follow our rightful Master, Lord Jesus. That is sanctification.

Once we believe like this, then we no live out our faith in a sanctified life before God by the same faith we had when we first believed.

Previously addressed. . .

Bible Highlighter · May 12, 2023

BBAS 64 said:
Nope not the same.

It is called atonement and mediation the fundamentals of the NC in His blood.

There is now no condemnation... even now and every now.

He saves to the uttermost (completely, perfectly, utterly) He is better.

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Peace with God!

In Him,

Bill

Holy living is an illusion of one believes they can sin and not die.

Justification and Sanctification ?

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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