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Does that includeYes indeed, God has promised that all of those who have truly been regenerated will be transformed by the sanctifying, purifying work of God the Holy Spirit.
Most believe that no sinners will enter heaven and that God, in His way, will ultimately accomplish true sinlessness in us in the next life prior to entrance. But in this life there are at least four different perspectives on this matter.Yes indeed, God has promised that all of those who have truly been regenerated will be transformed by the sanctifying, purifying work of God the Holy Spirit.
Most believe that no sinners will enter heaven and that God, in His way, will ultimately accomplish true sinlessness in us in the next life prior to entrance. But in this life there are at least four different perspectives on this matter.
Numbers 1, 2, & 4 would definitively deny that persistence in gross sins such as the deeds of the flesh listed in Gal 5 would be consistent with the life of a believer-and would hold that such sins would exclude him from heaven. And they can all be reasonably well enough supported by Scripture. Number 4, FWIW, is the position held by the early churches in the east and west, and is reflected virtually unanimously in the writings of the early
- Personal sinless perfection is possible-and required-for a believer. This is not a common belief even though the very early church tended towards this position, with some biblical support.
- Sinless perfection is guaranteed to a believer as an imputed righteousness so that God sees one as righteous despite our still being sinners in truth. At its extreme-and taking it to its logical extension-this perspective understands that no gravity or amount of sin can separate one from God as long as he believes.
- Christ’s righteousness is imputed to a believer and yet he must overcome sin and is empowered to do so by the Spirit and guaranteed to overcome it, growing in holiness even if sinless perfection is not expected in this life.
- The righteousness of Christ/God is given to a believer by virtue of union with Him; sinless perfection is not expected in this life and yet the believer must be on that path, overcoming sin more than being overcome by it as he’s empowered to do so by the Spirit but not guaranteed to do so. He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation with His Creator throughout whatever time he’s given in this life, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit in faith, hope, and love.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth
Yes, those who believe receive the Spirit to guide those who have put their faith in Lord Jesus, ...
For when you were enslaved to sin, you had no part in Christ's righteousness...[Philippians 3:9]John 3:14-18 (WEB)
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Romans 8:12-14 (WEB)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Yes indeed, the new nature acquired at the new birth will necessarily lead to new desires and a willing heart to obey the moral and ethical teachings of Christ. Now what that looks like precisely, how that plays out in real life, is where the confusion and controversies emanate from. It appears to me that it will look very imperfect at times, but nevertheless, the Lord knows who His children are.Does that include
the obedience which leads to righteousness (Ro 6:16); i.e.,
wholehearted (willing) obedience to the moral and ethical teachings of Christ (Ro 6:17) and,
in human terms, offering themselves in slavery to righteousness instead of slavery to sin (Ro 6:19)?
Turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, so that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. Heaven must receive Him until the time of the restoration of all things, Acts 3:19-21Yes indeed, the new nature acquired at the new birth will necessarily lead to new desires and a willing heart to obey the moral and ethical teachings of Christ. Now what that looks like precisely, how that plays out in real life, is where the confusion and controversies emanate from. It appears to me that it will look very imperfect at times, but nevertheless, the Lord knows who His children are.
2 Timothy 2:19-21, "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:20
Believers, you are of God, you belong to Christ and have already overcome them; because He who is in you is greater than he
is now at work in those who are disobedient, sinful, depraved mankind. 1 John 4:4
For when you were enslaved to sin, you had no part in Christ's righteousness...[Philippians 3:9]
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:20-23
Regarding "1 John 2:20," I agree that true believers do have the Spirit dwelling in them, and they know the truth.
Regarding "1 John 4:4," yes, I agree that the Spirit is the guide of the true believer, giving the believer victory over sin and death. And, as we know, the believer has victory over sin as he remains in the faith manifested by living and walking in the Spirit by the same faith by which they received the Spirit. The indwelling Spirit gives eternal life to who?
Since we have a great Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with full assurance of faith; Heb 10:21-23Galatians 6:7-9 (EWEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let {{us}} not be weary in doing good, for {{we}} will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.
And so, John, in agreement with the Apostle Paul, warns the believers to remain in Christ to remain in the Son and the Father.
1 John 2:24 (WEB) Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.
Regarding "Romans 6:20-23," I agree with you that the free gift of eternal life is for those who are in Christ. And as "Romans 6:20-23" teaches us, we are in Christ by renouncing sin (Romans 6:12-19), which is being freed from sin, and living sanctified in righteousness.
Those who are governed by the flesh cannot please God.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. Rom 8:8-9
But if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. John 8:36
And of course, as John pointed out, believers receive the anointing of Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.Dah'veed, to come to an accurate understanding of what God intended in context, then we must accept the full council of God within the Gospel Revelation rather than pitting Scripture against Scripture. All the Scriptures relate harmoniously to give us the Truth of the Fullness of the Gospel.
In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, having believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13True, anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. Who are the ones who possess the Spirit of Christ?
The answer is: The believers
Now the one who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit; 2 Cor 5:5The Spirit indwells who?
Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth 1 Peter 1:18-23The answer is: The believers who demonstrate their faith by obedience:
Acts 5:32 (ESV) 32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
John 14:15-16 (ESV) 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth
And of course, as John pointed out, believers receive the anointing of Christ who is the way, the truth and the life.
In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, having believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13
Now the one who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit; 2 Cor 5:5
Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth 1 Peter 1:18-23
Since we have fellowship of the Spirit of Christ, being of the same mind, having the same love, knit together in spirit, intent on one purpose [ living in accordance to your faith, spreading the gospel—the good news regarding salvation through faith in Christ. Phil 2:1-2Exactly. Thanks for sharing.
Since we have fellowship of the Spirit of Christ, being of the same mind, having the same love, knit together in spirit, intent on one purpose [ living in accordance to your faith, spreading the gospel—the good news regarding salvation through faith in Christ. Phil 2:1-2
This salvation was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, and has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:9-10
Live in Me, and I will live in you; if you're not in unity with Me, you cannot bear fruit; John 15:4
Ok. The difference in our thinking here involves whether or not we-our wills-are at all involved in our turning to God -and then in our remaining in Him. From your perspective, once a person turns to God in faith they cannot turn back; salvation is a done deal and we're guaranteed to live as children of God should.You said, "He must still strive, with the help of grace, to work out his salvation ". Agreed, however, what many people fail to recognize [in Philippians 2:12-13] is this .... the salvation that they are working out is one that could only be gained through trusting in another's work ... the atoning work of Jesus Christ. They are not said to be working [for] it .... but instead to be working [out] that salvation which was already purchased for them.
All those who truly have been regenerated will strive, with the help of God's grace, to work out their salvation [to pursue the will of God for each of their individual lives]. You believe that some regenerated followers of Christ will fail to strive hard enough, and, as a result will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity [that is, some will "miss the final cut" to qualify for a position on "team Heaven" - a spot on the final roster for the only team that will be playing throughout eternity in Heaven] ... a position that I strongly disagree with. [if I've misrepresented your position please correct me ... and my apologies in advance].
Ok. The difference in our thinking here involves whether or not we-our wills-are at all involved in our turning to God -and then in our remaining in Him. From your perspective, once a person turns to God in faith they cannot turn back; salvation is a done deal and we're guaranteed to live as children of God should.
From my perspective we must participate, working out our salvation is an option. We must choose to pick up our cross daily-and follow. Everything is grace; God must come to us first. He seeks to draw a "yes" from us that counters the "no" which humankind first said to God in Eden. And from there He wants that "yes" to grow in loudness, to be confirmed in its resolve. And as it does we grow nearer to Him, and increasingly like Him-by virtue of that nearness since our righteousness, our love, to put it best, comes from Him. It's all His work, but a work He wants us to come to appreciate, love, and embrace for ourselves. Our own justice/righteousness is intrinsically bound up with our wanting it, wanting what He wants for us, for our own highest good..
So salvation is more than simply making it to heaven; it's to be changed, it's to become the beings He created us to be. It's to agree with Him, to be aligned with Him, to be one with Him, to begin to love as He does. That's our purpose. And it doesn't happen all at once.
Faith is the gateway...to Him. Full-blown love, for Himself and neighbor, is the goal, such that a teaching I'm familiar with can actually put it this way, quoting a 16th century believer in this case while summing up the gospel concisely:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
That's the love Jesus showed us. And that love is both a divine gift, and a human choice.
With all respect, I think that's a distinction without a difference. I mean, the elect will obviously persevere. But to predict that I or anyone else will persevere-that we're definitively numbered among the elect-is a totally different matter. God, alone, knows whose names are written in the Book of Life with perfect certainty.No, from my perspective, that's not the case at all. I really can't see how you read into my statements that I believe that the elect don't possess free moral agency both prior and subsequent to regeneration. Although a regenerate person could turn back [out of their free moral agency], they simply won't; they won't ultimately apostatize from the faith due to their renewed nature coupled with God's preserving means.
There is only one gospel.I am not sure what your intent is by referencing those Scriptures. The Scriptures you referenced are wonderful, and reveal God's gracious provision for sinners that God planned from eternity. However, my feeling is you are either a Calvinist or Reformist, and so, the Passages you quoted are being understood by you according to your doctrine. Am I correct? I will respond as if that were correct, because otherwise, I am not sure what point you are making, since you are not actually dialoguing with me regarding your beliefs or intentions.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:8-11This eternal gracious plan of God is by the Gospel, and this grace is granted to all of humanity through faith in Christ (Philippians 2:1-2).
Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we [those who believe: vs. 1) also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.
1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
As you can see, when read in context, the Scriptures clearly teach us that God's plan from eternity was to save those who believe because of the Gospel. This faith is demonstrated to be genuine by good works.
Titus 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 looking for the blessed hope and a1pearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works.
Notice that the Scriptures do not state that God's plan is to save by the Gospel those whom God shows partiality and favoritism by giving some faith by regeneration to be saved, while decreeing the rest of humanity to eternal condemnation without a fair chance. Rather, God so loved the world that whosoever believes (present and continuous believing) in His Son is saved.
I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?Living in the flesh with its sinful passions while we live by faith does humble us for sure, but if I am understanding you correctly, to say that you could not have lived out your faith in this life any better or less than what God has in mind for you, and what God is using you for, is not a Scripture teaching. God definitely holds us, even Christians, responsible for how we live out our faith in this life, and not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. [2 Peter 1:16-18] 1 John 2:19-20@setst777
I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?
That second sentence sounds like something I said —probably something like, "If God did not ordain something to happen it didn't happen— implies to you that I think we are not responsible for how we live our lives.
If this is true, "not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.", then they were "in" the faith but not of the faith.
I don't follow that first sentence. You understand me to say that me living this life doing only what God had decreed that I do, etc —Are you saying that you understand me to say that is NOT a Scripture teaching? Or are YOU saying that it is not a Scriptural teaching?
That second sentence sounds like something I said —probably something like, "If God did not ordain something to happen it didn't happen— implies to you that I think we are not responsible for how we live our lives.
If this is true, "not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.", then they were "in" the faith but not of the faith.
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