Just what is not living in sin exactly?

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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.
 

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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.
I've noticed that most Protestants are weak in moral theology, beyond "smoke not, drink not, dance not" in some of them.

I suggest you read CALLED TO BE HOLY.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I've noticed that most Protestants are weak in moral theology, beyond "smoke not, drink not, dance not" in some of them.

I suggest you read CALLED TO BE HOLY.

That's true. Unless they mean that Christians will sin less after they are reborn. I've noticed that I sin a lot less than I used to after becoming a Christian.

I'll have to pick up a copy of that book and read it. Thanks.
 
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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.

This article gives a good take. While it's a teaching on one verse it touches on the whole.

The Meaning of 1 John 3:9 - Faith Baptist Bible College
 
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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.
Actually Romans 6:1 is asking a rhetoric question: Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

That is, as he explained in chapters prior to Romans 6, in light of man's inherent sinfulness, God graciously took issues of performance out of the justification formula. Under the Law justification was a matter of one's performance. Under the grace of the New Covenant man is justified by faith apart from works. "To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:5,6

Those who reject or otherwise ridicule the gospel of grace allege that God's grace leads to a license to sin. That's the kind of issue Paul was dealing with.

You'll notice the incentive for not sinning in Romans 6 is not fear of condemnation, but rather that it's simply the appropriate thing to do in light of who we are in Christ and our fate which has been secured for us. In Rom 6:21 he also notes that sinning is not fruitful.

In other words while anti-grace people ask "Why not sin", those who embrace God's grace inherent in the gospel ask "Why sin?" Similar analogies could be made with "Why not eat garbage?" versus "Why eat garbage" or "Why not do drugs" versus "Why do drugs".

Furthermore we learn through John in 1John 3:9 that being born of God changes one's nature such that it's unnatural to live in sin. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."
 
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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.
Sin, is the transgression of Torah (the law), so when Paul and John and Jesus say go and sin no more, they're saying, that you're to be saved by placing your faith in Jesus, but that you're to walk according to Torah. Doing all things that are good and pleasing to God.

Doing God's will. How can you know God's will you might ask? By reading Genesis - Deuteronomy, because that is the Torah and in the Torah, God tells His children what He loves and hates. We are to avoid the things He hates. Homosexuality, witch craft, child sacrifice, eating unclean animals (something He says in Isaiah He will destroy people in fire for when He returns).

The general consensus of our tradition today, is that Torah isn't important, and that we can live without it, but that is a tradition of man. To avoid sin, is to do your best to keep Torah. You'll stumble, obviously, but as it's written, that's where Jesus as your Savior comes into play. The important part, is that you desire to walk perfectly in Torah, even though you will never.

All throughout the old testament we see God getting angry at people for either completely ditching Torah, or "doing" Torah, but their way. Greedily denying and ignoring what it says for their own personal gain. He doesn't just want you to love others, He wants you to keep Torah as well. But, He wants a balance. He wants you to Love Him (by keeping Torah), but He also wants you to love others. Without loving others, keeping Torah is pointless. Without keeping Torah, if you still love others, you may still have a shot into heaven, but as Jesus says, as one who does away with and teaches the doing away with the law, if you do get in, you'll be least.
 
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Neostarwcc

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ilovejcsog

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I seem to always have to remind myself that we all sin and it is practicing sin that is meant when they say sinless. I probably didn't say this right. Someone knows what I mean and they can rephrase it please.
 
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HTacianas

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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved. General Church teaching is that we should repent of our sins and no longer sin. But wait! Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh? And isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus? Or am I missing something here? Just what is not living in sin exactly? Since everyone sins before and after their rebirth.

What you are missing is the concept defined most fully by the Roman Church in their teaching on mortal and venial sin. It is true that we all sin, but our everyday sins are venial, meaning minor acts of unrighteousness. I would hope that no one commits mortal sins every day, such as murder.
 
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...isn't biblical repentance a change of mind about Jesus?

A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.

Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
 
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A very basic way to understand it - if you're carrying on an extramarital affair (adultery) - end it now.

As to the sin of pride or covetousness, that one is going to take rooting out. In some sense we will continue to sin in those sorts of ways - different inclinations for different people - and we should work on these (with the help of God of course) and should improve, but might struggle in various degrees for the rest of our lives.

But we shouldn't be stealing, murdering, or otherwise making overt consciously chosen sin a way of life anymore - or we need to question if we are really believers at all.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I seem to always have to remind myself that we all sin and it is practicing sin that is meant when they say sinless. I probably didn't say this right. Someone knows what I mean and they can rephrase it please.

I think I understand what you're trying to say. A Christian who's been born again will not continue to practice sin because they are a new creation right? So they will sin less and not have habitual sin. Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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Neostarwcc

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A very basic way to understand it - if you're carrying on an extramarital affair (adultery) - end it now.

As to the sin of pride or covetousness, that one is going to take rooting out. In some sense we will continue to sin in those sorts of ways - different inclinations for different people - and we should work on these (with the help of God of course) and should improve, but might struggle in various degrees for the rest of our lives.

But we shouldn't be stealing, murdering, or otherwise making overt consciously chosen sin a way of life anymore - or we need to question if we are really believers at all.

I think that makes sense. Thank you.
 
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I think that makes sense. Thank you.

Unless a person repents....

One act of adultery (is considered adultery - Leviticus 20:10) and it can destroy a person's soul.

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul" (Proverbs 6:32).​

Unless a person repents....

One act of murder means one is a murderer (See Numbers 35:16-18), and they have no eternal life abiding in them.

"...And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).​

So yeah, I don't see how a person can abide in grievous unrepentant sin and still be saved.

Side Note:

To repent means to seek forgiveness of one's sins with GOD.
The "fruits of repentance" spoken by John the Baptist means is talking about good deeds.
In Acts of the Apostles 8:22, Peter tells Simon to repent by way of a prayer to God so he may be forgiven of his wickedness. For me, this is the biggest evidence for "repent" meaning to seek forgiveness with GOD. For repentance is where it starts with the LORD.
 
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ilovejcsog

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I think I understand what you're trying to say. A Christian who's been born again will not continue to practice sin because they are a new creation right? So they will sin less and not have habitual sin. Am I understanding you correctly?
You definitely did it, thank you:)
 
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A very basic way to understand it - if you're carrying on an extramarital affair (adultery) - end it now.

As to the sin of pride or covetousness, that one is going to take rooting out. In some sense we will continue to sin in those sorts of ways - different inclinations for different people - and we should work on these (with the help of God of course) and should improve, but might struggle in various degrees for the rest of our lives.

But we shouldn't be stealing, murdering, or otherwise making overt consciously chosen sin a way of life anymore - or we need to question if we are really believers at all.
Actually the two attitudes to be considered are if you serve the world or serve God. You cant't serve one without hating the other. If you love the world you are sinning. The description covers all manifestations of loving the world, even coveting, adultery and murder, and this text is very useful in demonstrating what sin looks like:

Numbers 14:20The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times—23not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
 
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FireDragon76

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Okay so Paul says in Romans 6:1 that we should not continue to sin while we are being saved.

I don't think Paul is saying that, exactly. Let's look at the actual verse:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

He's not implying we can be sinless. Indeed, he seems to confess that he himself still sees another law working within him- sin. See Romans 7:15-26. Paul sees deliverance from this existential plight only in the mystical union with Christ, where our life is now "hidden with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3).

In Lutheran soteriology, we do not conceive of Christian freedom in purely negative terms, the freedom from something. It is also the freedom to do genuine good works that benefit our neighbor. So we would not understand Christian liberty as a license to do things that offend human dignity and harm others.
 
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Doesn't everyone still sin while we are in the flesh?

.
You are absolutely correct in what you say, as long as we are in the flesh we will continue to sin, but do you not know what the Bible says about a Born Again Christian being DEAD to the FLESH?

Oh, and lest we forget, Born Again Christians are also DEAD to the LAW and SIN.

Therefore the premise that a Christian continues to sin after they are Born Again, is a fallacy.

Look at it this way, if there isn't any difference between a Non-Believer and a Believer sinning, then why the New Birth, why the Newness of Life, why the infilling of the Holy Spirit, what advantage does the Believer have, what advantage Salvation?
 
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FireDragon76

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Look at it this way, if there isn't any difference between a Non-Believer and a Believer sinning, then why the New Birth, why the Newness of Life, why the infilling of the Holy Spirit, what advantage does the Believer have, what advantage Salvation?

We are justified by faith, and not works.

The promises of God are not trivialities. And the divine promises are exactly what separates a believer from a non-believer. The believer lives in patient expectation of the world to come, which leads to a realistic ethic vs. perfectionism, which leads to fanaticism.
 
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