Just a quick question for law proponents.

[LittleLambofJesus]

there it is..you don't seem to think the whole narratve is perfect, ya gotta see the end of the movie bro.

You also gave an answer to that same post here

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613900/#post59206513

 

[Frogster]

Frogster--i think i've proved ENOUGH times that this isn't about "coming into faith" or becoming saved, or anything like that. I don't understand why you continue to act like I'm claiming that anyone needs to do any work, commandment, or keep the Torah in order to "be saved" - "get under grace" etc.

And again you use your interpretation of Scripture and build your entire theology on this wrong interpretation.
Are you really saying that the Torah of G-d is not His righteousness?

because faith is god's righteousness, yet you keep making like torahh is..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Frogster--i think i've proved ENOUGH times that this isn't about "coming into faith" or becoming saved, or anything like that. I don't understand why you continue to act like I'm claiming that anyone needs to do any work, commandment, or keep the Torah in order to "be saved" - "get under grace" etc.

And again you use your interpretation of Scripture and build your entire theology on this wrong interpretation.
Are you really saying that the Torah of G-d is not His righteousness?

His interpretation is about as good as yours and the MJs....but then again, maybe not

http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846-54/#post35780183
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

 

[from scratch]

Read Romans 4:16 and re-answer the question.
I'll include Abraham in the pool as well.

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

Please quote your verse and explain what you think it means, then ask your question.

You're clearly demand that salvation (righteousness) comes by the law. And it clearly doesn't.

 

[from scratch]

Can you please answer the question:

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

NO! Is that plain enough for you? You refuse everything else now prove that they were under grace. I did not say that they received grace inspite of the law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by tzadik Read Romans 4:16 and re-answer the question.
I'll include Abraham in the pool as well.

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

Please quote your verse and explain what you think it means, then ask your question.

You're clearly demand that salvation (righteousness) comes by the law. And it clearly doesn't.

David, Moses, JtB and Paul were under the Law, as were all the Apostles of Jesus and the Judean rulers, except I don't think the Judean rulers fell under the grace of Jesus

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Acts 5:33
And they having heard, were cut [to the heart], and were taking counsel to slay them,
34 but a certain one, having risen up in the sanhedrim--a Pharisee, by name Gamaliel, a teacher of law honoured by all the people--commanded to put the apostles forth a little,
35 and said unto them, `Men, Israelites, take heed to yourselves about these men, what ye are about to do,

 

[tzadik]

His interpretation is about as good as yours and the MJs....but then again, maybe not

http://www.christianforums.com/t5546846-54/#post35780183
How damaging is the Messianic Movement

This is my interpretation:
G-d is righteousness. G-d's Word is righteousness. G-d's Torah is righteousness.

"It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us.

"Let my tongue sing of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness."

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."

For Christ is the goal of the Law of righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness."

"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?"

"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is my interpretation:
G-d is righteousness. G-d's Word is righteousness. G-d's Torah is righteousness.

Good verses

 

[from scratch]

I'll take that as a round-about admission that Abraham, David, Daniel, Paul and EVERYBODY else who is saved is in fact "under grace" WHETHER in the "OT" or the "NT".

Now do you really want me to prove that those people that I mentioned (Abraham, David, Daniel and Paul) continued to keep Torah, and spoke highly of Torah (especially David) after they were saved by grace??

Do you see now how completely erroneous the statement "if you are under grace" you no longer have to keep the Torah of G-d is??

Why Yes I do. First it is impossible to prove that Abraham was ever subkect to the law because it came 430 years later and Moses clearly said it wasn't given to him in Deu 5;3. So to prove your point you have to call Moses a liar. Do you not understand the problem that causes?

We don't deny that we are saved only by grace. We do deny that salvation is maintained by the law which can't provide salvation. Gal 3:1-3. This is demonstrated by Jesus and realized by the rich young ruler of Mat 19, Lk 18 and MK 10.

You continue to insist that Christians are obligated to a defunct covenant of death Jer 31:31-33. Why do you have such a love affair with the ministration of death II Cor 3:7?

 

[tzadik]

Please quote your verse and explain what you think it means, then ask your question.

You're clearly demand that salvation (righteousness) comes by the law. And it clearly doesn't.

See that's where we part ways Scratch. You purport that salvation = righteousness and righteous=salvation.
So when you read verses like
Psalm 106:3 "How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times!"
Ezekiel 18:5, 22 "But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness...All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live."
Ezekiel 45:9 `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Enough, you princes of Israel; put away violence and destruction, and practice justice and righteousness. Stop your expropriations from My people," declares the Lord GOD."
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:5 "For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness."
Matthew 6:1 "Practice not your righteousness before men"
1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."
1 John 3:7, 10 "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

When you read these do you consider the task at hand is to PRACTICE SALVATION...or something else?

 

[James 75]

NO! Is that plain enough for you?

You're wrong, but plain.

 

[tzadik]

Why Yes I do. First it is impossible to prove that Abraham was ever subkect to the law because it came 430 years later and Moses clearly said it wasn't given to him in Deu 5;3. So to prove your point you have to call Moses a liar. Do you not understand the problem that causes?

We don't deny that we are saved only by grace. We do deny that salvation is maintained by the law which can't provide salvation. Gal 3:1-3. This is demonstrated by Jesus and realized by the rich young ruler of Mat 19, Lk 18 and MK 10.

Ok, because the Genesis 26:5 discussion will cause to big an argument, we'll remove Abraham from the "saved by grace/kept Torah list"...let's turn then to David. Was David saved by grace through faith alone? (I'll answer for ya) ABSOLUTELY. Now after David was saved and placed "under grace" did David continue to keep the Torah of G-d? Did David sing it's praises? Did David say "blessed is the man who delights in the Torah of G-d? and blessed the man that walks in the Torah of G-d?"
Yes?
Why in the World would David continue to keep the Torah of G-d and observe it as a guide that teaches him to walk in G-d's ways, after he's already been imputed righteousness, and salvation??
Simple question. Simple answer - because the Torah of G-d teaches believers in G-d how to walk in His ways.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

See that's where we part ways Scratch. You purport that salvation = righteousness and righteous=salvation.
So when you read verses like
1 John 3:7, 10 "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

When you read these do you consider the task at hand is to PRACTICE SALVATION...or something else?

Didn't our Lord Jesus refer to these law keeping Judean rulers as being of the Devil

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

John 8:44 `Ye out of a father, the Devil are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him.
Whenever he may be talking, the falsehood out of the own/P he is talking, that a falsifier he is and the father of it.
[Reve 18:14]

 

[from scratch]

Atleast scratch is honest in his answers and doesn't JUST want to prove his point no matter what to the death. Even a newborn baby "Christian" will be able to tell you that everyone who is saved, whether from the beginning until now was saved by grace through faith. There's only one way to be saved and that's "under grace" so you can beat around the bush all you want...but the fact remains...

My buddy Frogster is just as honest. You are demanding salvation be maintained by the law and if you use Abraham who never had the law according to Moses was not saved in any relationship to the law. That is by the law or maintained by by the law. Romans 4 clearly says by imputation and not obedience to anything. Your argument clearly fails.

 

[from scratch]

You're wrong, but plain.

Show me, please.

 

[Nanopants]

You don't get it. Torah is a guideline that teaches you how to walk in His ways. There was only one person who could keep the Torah perfectly without mistakes, and that's Yeshua. The Torah provides proper consequences, steps to correct and repent from the sin committed.
You need to really study Torah out a bit before you throw around fluff statements that you don't know anything about.
Sin is when you transgress the Torah- whether it's before or after salvation. When you sin (not IF you sin), His Word teaches you and shows you what steps you must take to repent and restore with your brother.
Catching someone sinning isn't enough to throw away the Torah of G-d. For it's the human being that has messed up. It's the human that has failed TOrah. The Torah itself is perfect! G-d's word is perfect!

If this were true, then the chief priests and the elders would have been favored by Christ. But we know that wasn't the case, because we were told that He favored prostitutes and tax collectors over them:

...Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. (Mat 21:31)

And yet, we are also told:

...unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20)

So, the logical conclusion is that prostitutes and tax collectors (sinners who violated the law of God?) were more righteous than those who followed the law. How then does your theological framework, with the law being of central importance, answer for this?

 

[from scratch]

Didn't our Lord Jesus refer to these law keeping Judean rulers as being of the Devil

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

John 8:44 `Ye out of a father, the Devil are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him.
Whenever he may be talking, the falsehood out of the own/P he is talking, that a falsifier he is and the father of it.
[Reve 18:14]

Interesting, isn't it?

 

[tzadik]

My buddy Frogster is just as honest. You are demanding salvation be maintained by the law and if you use Abraham who never had the law according to Moses was not saved in any relationship to the law. That is by the law or maintained by by the law. Romans 4 clearly says by imputation and not obedience to anything. Your argument clearly fails.

Unbelievable. I did not say that the Torah maintains my salvation or anybody elses. You're blind (either innocently or by choice) if you don't see that David was saved by grace through faith alone, and continued to keep Torah. Now if you want to ask me "WHY did David continue to keep Torah?" we can go that route. But the point remains David, and every other believer throughout Scripture continued to keep G-d's Word and walk in His ways, after salvation. It wasn't to maintain their salvation, as if they didn't keep the Sabbath this Saturday they'd lose it, but rather because they loved G-d and wanted to Keep His Word.

 

[tzadik]

If this were true, then the chief priests and the elders would have been favored by Christ. But we know that wasn't the case, because we were told that He favored prostitutes and tax collectors over them:

...Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. (Mat 21:31)

And yet, we are also told:

...unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20)

So, the logical conclusion is that prostitutes and tax collectors (sinners who violated the law of God?) were more righteous than those who followed the law. How then does your theological framework, with the law being of central importance, answer for this?

Because they were using the LAW as a means to be justified! It's Bible 101 people. No one is arguing that we need anything but the blood of Yeshua and faith in G-d by grace to be saved. The prostitutes didn't need to keep any laws to be saved. The pharisees on the other hand rejected salvation (Messiah), and tried EARNING their way to salvation.

 

[Nanopants]

Because they were using the LAW as a means to be justified! It's Bible 101 people. No one is arguing that we need anything but the blood of Yeshua and faith in G-d by grace to be saved. The prostitutes didn't need to keep any laws to be saved. The pharisees on the other hand rejected salvation (Messiah), and tried EARNING their way to salvation.

But then if not following the law had no bearing salvation, or on the fact that they were more righteous than the followers of the law (would like an explanation on how that is), why do we need it?