Just a quick question for law proponents.

[tzadik]

Does that make it part of the law or something. We aren't denying that grace existed. We are plainly stating that grace voids the law and the law voids grace as demonstrated in the Scripture.

Now perhaps you can show us that grace is a provision of the law from the law. No one else has been able to establish this as a fact in the last year.

I'll take that as a round-about admission that Abraham, David, Daniel, Paul and EVERYBODY else who is saved is in fact "under grace" WHETHER in the "OT" or the "NT".

Now do you really want me to prove that those people that I mentioned (Abraham, David, Daniel and Paul) continued to keep Torah, and spoke highly of Torah (especially David) after they were saved by grace??

Do you see now how completely erroneous the statement "if you are under grace" you no longer have to keep the Torah of G-d is??

 

[Frogster]

Can you please answer the question:

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

i said no, because the reign of grace, did not come until the act of the one man. Did you study the "ONE" word, i mentioned in 5?

Disprove rom 5...

then why the cross, if the adamic reign could end sooner?

what does rom 6;6 say, ended the old adamic nature? THAT ALL WERE IN...

who was not IN ADAM?

 

[tzadik]

i said no, because the reign of grace, did not come until the act of the one man. Did you study the "ONE" word, i mentioned in 5?

Disprove rom 5...

then why the cross, if the adamic reign could end sooner?

what does rom 6;6 say, ended the old adamic nature? THAT ALL WERE IN...

who was not IN ADAM?

Atleast scratch is honest in his answers and doesn't JUST want to prove his point no matter what to the death. Even a newborn baby "Christian" will be able to tell you that everyone who is saved, whether from the beginning until now was saved by grace through faith. There's only one way to be saved and that's "under grace" so you can beat around the bush all you want...but the fact remains...

 

[Frogster]

I'll take that as a round-about admission that Abraham, David, Daniel, Paul and EVERYBODY else who is saved is in fact "under grace" WHETHER in the "OT" or the "NT".

Now do you really want me to prove that those people that I mentioned (Abraham, David, Daniel and Paul) continued to keep Torah, and spoke highly of Torah (especially David) after they were saved by grace??

Do you see now how completely erroneous the statement "if you are under grace" you no longer have to keep the Torah of G-d is??

how could abarahm keep a torah, that was not written yet?

david didn't "keep it"..he saw bathsheba...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

how could abarahm keep a torah, that was not written yet?

david didn't "keep it"..he saw bathsheba...

Did Abraham go into the same place that we do, upon his death?

Great question frog

http://www.christianforums.com/t7538871/
Luke 16:24 why is the rich man calling out to Father Abraham?

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having, the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the stones, these, to raise-up/rouse/egeirai <1453> (5658) children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in the flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]

 

[Frogster]

Atleast scratch is honest in his answers and doesn't JUST want to prove his point no matter what to the death. Even a newborn baby "Christian" will be able to tell you that everyone who is saved, whether from the beginning until now was saved by grace through faith. There's only one way to be saved and that's "under grace" so you can beat around the bush all you want...but the fact remains...

sorry..but you can't refute rom 5, sin and death, and the law, were all before the cross, and no one was out, till the cross...

Next you will say Mary was without sin, like the Catholic's do.

 

[from scratch]

Good morning.
Do you believe David, Daniel, John the Baptist and Paul were "under grace"?

Are you trying to say that these people found grace or that the law provided grace? How can one be under opposing forces at the same time?

 

[Frogster]

I'll take that as a round-about admission that Abraham, David, Daniel, Paul and EVERYBODY else who is saved is in fact "under grace" WHETHER in the "OT" or the "NT".

Now do you really want me to prove that those people that I mentioned (Abraham, David, Daniel and Paul) continued to keep Torah, and spoke highly of Torah (especially David) after they were saved by grace??

Do you see now how completely erroneous the statement "if you are under grace" you no longer have to keep the Torah of G-d is??

anyway, the point is, that grace came by the cross, not law..

 

[Frogster]

Are you trying to say that these people found grace or that the law provided grace? How can one be under opposing forces at the same time?

zactly.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

sorry..but you can't refute rom 5, sin and death, and the law, were all before the cross, and no one was out, till the cross...

Next you will say Mary was without sin, like the Catholic's do.

Good point

Mariology & Hagiography - Christian Forums

http://www.christianforums.com/t7303142/
Mary Sinless?

 

[tzadik]

how could abarahm keep a torah, that was not written yet?

david didn't "keep it"..he saw bathsheba...

You don't get it. Torah is a guideline that teaches you how to walk in His ways. There was only one person who could keep the Torah perfectly without mistakes, and that's Yeshua. The Torah provides proper consequences, steps to correct and repent from the sin committed.
You need to really study Torah out a bit before you throw around fluff statements that you don't know anything about.
Sin is when you transgress the Torah- whether it's before or after salvation. When you sin (not IF you sin), His Word teaches you and shows you what steps you must take to repent and restore with your brother.
Catching someone sinning isn't enough to throw away the Torah of G-d. For it's the human being that has messed up. It's the human that has failed TOrah. The Torah itself is perfect! G-d's word is perfect!

 

[tzadik]

Are you trying to say that these people found grace or that the law provided grace? How can one be under opposing forces at the same time?

Scratch, I never said that people found grace through or by the law. My point is that though they were "under grace" they continued to keep the Torah of G-d. That point is indisputable.
You call them opposing forces because you are not seeing the Torah of G-d in the right light, as David, Moses, Paul and believers in the Scriptures saw it: as a guide, teaching them to walk in His ways. A guide for correction, reproof, instruction.

This is why David in Psalm 19:11 says "Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward." But the rest is up to us, with the help of His Spirit within us, whether or not we will listen, whether or not we walk in His ways (Psalm 119:1). David messed up, he knew it was wrong to covet, lie, heck David broke all 10 of the commandments when he sinned with Bathseba, the Torah showed --"warned him", yet he followed after his flesh and sinned. (broke the Torah) And with that came consequences. But the same Torah also taught Him how to restore His relationship with G-d.

 

[Frogster]

You don't get it. Torah is a guideline that teaches you how to walk in His ways. There was only one person who could keep the Torah perfectly without mistakes, and that's Yeshua. The Torah provides proper consequences, steps to correct and repent from the sin committed.
You need to really study Torah out a bit before you throw around fluff statements that you don't know anything about.
Sin is when you transgress the Torah- whether it's before or after salvation. When you sin (not IF you sin), His Word teaches you and shows you what steps you must take to repent and restore with your brother.
Catching someone sinning isn't enough to throw away the Torah of G-d. For it's the human being that has messed up. It's the human that has failed TOrah. The Torah itself is perfect! G-d's word is perfect!

then why do we gentiles, come in by faith, not torah? it clearly says the torah was not God's righteousness in rom 10.


If it were, gentiles would have to become jewish.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

anyway, the point is, that grace came by the cross, not law..

And also Truth

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"grace" AND "truth"
occurs in 5 verses in the YLT


Young) Genesis 47:29 And the days of Israel are near to die, and he calleth for his son, for Joseph, and saith to him, `If, I pray thee, I have found grace in thine eyes, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and thou hast done with me kindness and truth; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt,

NKJV) John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, [but] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[from scratch]

Answering a question with a question is the simpler way to avoid answering a question

Ah so you don't like rhetorical questions that really are statements. It is a softer approach. Some seem to think that one doesn't know or understand. This is a lack af ability or flat a refusal to understand. Besides you know th problem with making any out right statement here.

 

[Frogster]

Scratch, I never said that people found grace through or by the law. My point is that though they were "under grace" they continued to keep the Torah of G-d. That point is indisputable.
You call them opposing forces because you are not seeing the Torah of G-d in the right light, as David, Moses, Paul and believers in the Scriptures saw it: as a guide, teaching them to walk in His ways. A guide for correction, reproof, instruction.

This is why David in Psalm 19:11 says "Moreover, by them Your servant is warned; In keeping them there is great reward." But the rest is up to us, with the help of His Spirit within us, whether or not we will listen, whether or not we walk in His ways (Psalm 119:1). David messed up, he knew it was wrong to covet, lie, heck David broke all 10 of the commandments when he sinned with Bathseba, the Torah showed --"warned him", yet he followed after his flesh and sinned. (broke the Torah) And with that came consequences. But the same Torah also taught Him how to restore His relationship with G-d.

no they were not under grace.

The law is not of faith, read gal 3;12.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

then why do we gentiles, come in by faith, not torah? it clearly says the torah was not God's righteousness in rom 10.


If it were, gentiles would have to become jewish.

Good point

http://www.christianforums.com/t7597546/
When did Gentiles become Jews?

 

[Frogster]

You don't get it. Torah is a guideline that teaches you how to walk in His ways. There was only one person who could keep the Torah perfectly without mistakes, and that's Yeshua. The Torah provides proper consequences, steps to correct and repent from the sin committed.
You need to really study Torah out a bit before you throw around fluff statements that you don't know anything about.
Sin is when you transgress the Torah- whether it's before or after salvation. When you sin (not IF you sin), His Word teaches you and shows you what steps you must take to repent and restore with your brother.
Catching someone sinning isn't enough to throw away the Torah of G-d. For it's the human being that has messed up. It's the human that has failed TOrah. The Torah itself is perfect! G-d's word is perfect!

there it is..you don't seem to think the whole narratve is perfect, ya gotta see the end of the movie bro.

 

[tzadik]

then why do we gentiles, come in by faith, not torah? it clearly says the torah was not God's righteousness in rom 10.


If it were, gentiles would have to become jewish.

Frogster--i think i've proved ENOUGH times that this isn't about "coming into faith" or becoming saved, or anything like that. I don't understand why you continue to act like I'm claiming that anyone needs to do any work, commandment, or keep the Torah in order to "be saved" - "get under grace" etc.

And again you use your interpretation of Scripture and build your entire theology on this wrong interpretation.
Are you really saying that the Torah of G-d is not His righteousness?

 

[Frogster]

i'm going out for a cheeseburger..later gaterssss...