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Just a quick question for law proponents.

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So you agree with Frogster and think that the term 'under the law' as referenced throughout Romans and Galatians is in reference to everyone who is obedient to the Holy Torah of G-d?

So to make this discussion crystal clear - you believe that everyone (Jew or Gentile believers) who obey the Torah of G-d (after salvation) are 'under the law' and not 'under grace'... si?
Do you have some other explanation? I didn't see it. I don't see how if you observe or keep the law you're not under it. Especially since it seems to be a condition of salvation for you. If one isn't obedient to the law, I take your position is that they aren't a Christian or in possession of salvation called eternal life. Perhaps you can explain this.

If you don't understand my agreement with Frogster on this point I have no clue how to make it plain. And what does it matter anyway?
 
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Say, just out of curiousity. Why is there so little NT theology you can post, without plucking a verse here or there to support Gentiles living under law, and in a sense, "becoming Jewish", trying to keep festivals that they never even kept 2000 years ago, and food laws that they never listened to, 2000 years ago?

And as far as morals, can you post 1 NT verse, to show how law stops sin in the heart? I ask because all the evidence posted by scrath and myself, shows all the opposite to what you say.:)

Try to see the scriptures as a narrative, the Torah was just the beginning, like the movie analogy we spoke of, ya gotta see the end of the movie, to get the whole story.
I wonder why the end of the movie isn't liked much.;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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you're totally forgetting that 7 opened with died to law, released from WHAT BOUND, and the holy law aroused sin, so ye need not press your romans 7 citation the way you do. How much could he delight in what he died to. Who delights in their dead husband?:D
As the Father delights in His only begotten Son :)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT
"delight"
occurs 64 times in 64 verses in the YLT
Page 1 / 3 exact matches (Gen 29:7 - Psa 147:10)

ISA) Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over-shadows them.
And behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight/eudokhsa <2106> (5656), be ye hearing Him!".
[Deut 18/Acts 3:22/2 Peter 1:17/Revelation 2:18]

NKJV) 2 Peter 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased/eudokhsa <2106> (5656)."

2106. eudokeo yoo-dok-eh'-o from 2095 and 1380; to think well of, i.e. approve (an act); specially, to approbate (a person or thing):--think good, (be well) please(-d), be the good (have, take) pleasure, be willing.
 
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tzadik

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you're totally forgetting that 7 opened with died to law, released from WHAT BOUND, and the holy law aroused sin, so ye need not press your romans 7 citation the way you do. How much could he delight in what he died to. Who delights in their dead husband?:D

Apparently Paul does in Romans 7:22 and 25 and the tens of thousands of zealous Jewish believers in Acts 21.

Do you consider David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul and John to be under grace?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Apparently Paul does in Romans 7:22 and 25.

Do you consider David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul and John to be under grace?
Grace goes all the way back to Noah :)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"grace"
occurs 170 times in 159 verses in the KJV

1st time used:

NKJV) Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD
 
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Frogster

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Apparently Paul does in Romans 7:22 and 25.

Do you consider David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul and John to be under grace?

by the way..first..good morning..:wave:



They had to be under the reign of sin and death, there is not getting around it. John said "the lamb" that takes away the sin, John was still in Adam in the reign of sin and death, like the rest. How could I be wrong?:)
 
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So what you are saying then is that everyone who obeys and keeps the Torah of G-d is “under the law” and therefore not “under grace”?
NO!
If this argument is true then:
Jehu did not keep the Torah of G-d, therefore he must’ve been “under grace”

Everyone that the L-rd gave discretion and understanding to give charge over Israel, would’ve not been ‘under grace’, if they kept the Torah of G-d.
The whole kingdom of Rehoboam forsook the Torah of G-d and did no longer keep them, therefore they must’ve been “under grace”
All the people living in Jerusalem that devoted themselves to the Torah of G-d, were not “under grace”
Ezra set his heart to not only study Torah, but to practice and teach it; he definitely was not “under grace”.
All of those who read and kept the feasts of the L-rd according to the Torah were definitely not “under grace”
What in the world is David purporting here? He is telling us to delight in the Torah of G-d. Doesn’t He know that to do that would be to “not be under grace”??
David’s at it again. Why would I want to walk in the Torah of G-d, if it would mean that I would “not be under grace???”
Those who have rejected the Torah of the L-rd or hosts, must’ve been “under grace”.

Couple of “NT ones”

Why is Paul joyfully concur with something that would = “not under grace?”
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” Worse, serve something that would put him “not under grace”.

Just letting Scripture prove Scripture.
Ah yes so here are a couple -

17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1

16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The law is the antithesis of grace and grace is the antithesis of the law. One cancels the other and thus make it void having no value. I didn't repeat again all the Scriptures showing the law is over and for a limited time. One should consider Isa 28:10 when studying or considering the facts of salvation as it unfolds. I still think the major problem is the refusal to accept Jeremiah 31:31-33 as it unfolds in Acts.

Your line of reasoning is way out of focus. Grace is not provided for in the law.
 
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tzadik

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by the way..first..good morning..:wave:



They had to be under the reign of sin and death, there is not getting around it. John said "the lamb" that takes away the sin, John was still in Adam in the reign of sin and death, like the rest. How could I be wrong?:)

Good morning.
Do you believe David, Daniel, John the Baptist and Paul were "under grace"?
 
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Frogster

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Good morning.
Do you believe David, Daniel, John the Baptist and Paul were "under grace"?

no, because the reign of grace did not happen till the cross, they had to be in sin and death..

Did God in his gracious attribute, grant grace here and there? Yes.

But answer me this, how could they not be in the sphere of sin and death, before the cross?


Don't forget, Rom 4;5, says God justifies the ungodly, not the graced, so even Abe, and David, right in 4, were still in Adam. Adam, our old nature that we all had, ONLY ended at the cross, rom 6;6, unless you can show otherwise.:cool:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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you're totally forgetting that 7 opened with died to law, released from WHAT BOUND, and the holy law aroused sin, so ye need not press your romans 7 citation the way you do. How much could he delight in what he died to. Who delights in their dead husband?:D
I know a few. And on both sides of the issue - spiritually and carnally. ;):p
 
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Frogster

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NO!Ah yes so here are a couple -

17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1

16The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16

4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The law is the antithesis of grace and grace is the antithesis of the law. One cancels the other and thus make it void having no value. I didn't repeat again all the Scriptures showing the law is over and for a limited time. One should consider Isa 28:10 when studying or considering the facts of salvation as it unfolds. I still think the major problem is the refusal to accept Jeremiah 31:31-33 as it unfolds in Acts.

Your line of reasoning is way out of focus. Grace is not provided for in the law.

my wife and i were just talking john 1;17:thumbsup:

check out "realized", nasb.


came
New Testament Greek Definition:
1096 ginomai {ghin'-om-ahee}
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb;
TDNT - 1:681,117; v
AV - be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52,
become 47, God forbid + 3361 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3,
be married to 3, be preferred 3, not tr 14, misc 4, vr done 2; 678
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
2a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage 3a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
4a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

New Testament Greek Definition:
5633 Tense - Second Aorist See 5780
Voice - Middle Deponent See 5788
Mood - Indicative See 5791
Count - 260
 
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tzadik

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no, because the reign of grace did not happen till the cross, they had to be in sin and death..

Did God in his gracious attribute, grant grace here and there? Yes.

But answer me this, how could they not be in the sphere of sin and death, before the cross?


Don't forget, Rom 4;5, says God justifies the ungodly, not the graced, so even Abe, and David, right in 4, were still in Adam. Adam, our old nature that we all had, ONLY ended at the cross, rom 6;6, unless you can show otherwise.:cool:

Read Romans 4:16 and re-answer the question.
I'll include Abraham in the pool as well.

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Frogster

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Read Romans 4:16 and re-answer the question.
I'll include Abraham in the pool as well.

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

excuse me, how could they not be in sin and death, before the cross?

When did the reign of grace come? Since sin and death reigned until Christ, how could anyone prior, have been in the reign of grace?:scratch:

5;21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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Grace goes all the way back to Noah :)

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"grace"
occurs 170 times in 159 verses in the KJV

1st time used:

NKJV) Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD
Does that make it part of the law or something. We aren't denying that grace existed. We are plainly stating that grace voids the law and the law voids grace as demonstrated in the Scripture.

Now perhaps you can show us that grace is a provision of the law from the law. No one else has been able to establish this as a fact in the last year.
 
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Frogster

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Read Romans 4:16 and re-answer the question.
I'll include Abraham in the pool as well.

Were Abraham, David, Moses, John the Baptist, Paul "under grace"?

Did Abraham go into the same place that we do, upon his death?
 
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