Judgement of the Great harlot

[NightHawkeye]

If I say anything, ANYTHING, about the Roman Catholic Church being the harlot on this website, I will be kicked off, regardless of the evidence.

I cannot go there.

I can only show you the Scriptures that point directly at Rome.

Look at the entire history of the Roman empire/Holy Roman Empire. It's not about the Vatican, necessarily. Mystery Babylon was around to enslave Israel, kill the saints, fornicate with the Kings of the earth and is still around in the end for the beast to destroy her.

OK.

I'll assess it versus Rome/Vatican then ...

1) In John's day maybe there wasn't a Vatican ... The church was in the wilderness ... still doesn't seem right though since Rome was like in the CENTER of the known world.
2) Granted, Catholics have killed quite a few, but then what religion hasn't? Being so vast and over so many diverse populations, perhaps it qualifies though.
3) Granted, Rome may not qualify, but the Vatican has certainly squatted on peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
4) Future event, can't say ..., but who are the ten kings?
5) FAIL - Neither the Vatican nor Rome have greatly influenced world affairs recently. WWII may have been the highpoint for Rome/Vatican in the past century. That was none too high, and it has been downhill from there.
6) FAIL - I don't see the Vatican or Rome enriching many ..., perhaps centuries ago ..., but a minor player on the world stage today.
7) Can't dispute how clean or unclean the Vatican may or may not be ... although I'm inclined to think they're little different from some of the seven churches of Revelation. Whatever God's disappointments may be, condemnation seems unlikely.
8) FAIL - I just don't see that either the Vatican or Rome has had a major effect on commerce over the past two or three centuries.
9) Can't confirm or dispute
10) FAIL - The Vatican and Rome have had their share of sorrows ..., just take WWII for instance.
11) Future event ...
12) FAIL - Again, I just don't see the Vatican or Rome having a major effect on commerce.
13) FAIL - Again, I just don't see the Vatican or Rome having a major effect on commerce.
14) FAIL - Again, I just don't see the Vatican or Rome having a major effect on commerce.

Again, ir seems that even the combination of Vatican and Rome seems to fail a large number of required characteristics.

Even if one generously attributes to Rome the characteristics of long bygone days, there is still the matter of sitting as a queen and refusing to see sorrow. Rome and the Vatican have both had numerous sorrows ... I honestly don't see how these characteristics can be stretched to be attribute to Rome/Vatican.

In comparison, it's relatively easy to rationalize the Great harlot as being London. After all, the sun never set on the British Empire, and the Brits have been on the victorious side in every military engagement for a very good while now. Where I see London falling short is that London's economic output is dwarfed by the USA and others ,,, Of course, if one subscribes to the theory that the Rothschild's actually manipulate the Fed, then the prophecy might actually seem applicable to modern London.

And, considering the rioters in London recently yelling "Off with their heads ... " to Prince Charles and Camilla, London appears closer to anarchy than the USA. But, who knows ...

 

[trialbyfire]

Who is that ROMAN, daughter of Babylon, woman that rides the kings of the earth, setting herself up as queen over the people?

http://www.forbes.com/profile/pope-benedict-xvi

"Highest earthly authority for 1.1 billion souls, or one-sixth of world's population. Staunch traditionalist deplores secularism, consumerism and moral relativism, unbending on birth control, gay marriage and ordination of female priests. Despite major gaffes.."

 

[interpreter]

Moscow is the great harlot that sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). And she was breifly alligned withe Hitler, the anti-christ, whose Third Reich was the third six of the 666 trilogy.

 

[trialbyfire]

Moscow is the great harlot that sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). And she was breifly alligned withe Hitler, the anti-christ, whose Third Reich was the third six of the 666 trilogy.

Hitler was not the antichrist. Hitler committed suicide and his remains were burned.

This is what will happen to the antichrist:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Mystery Babylon is not Moscow. Moscow doesn't fit any of the criteria. Moscow didn't kill the saints. Moscow is not rich. Moscow doesn't have Babylonian practices. Mystery Babylon is Roman.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Mystery Babylon is Roman.

LOL. That I agree with ..., with emphasis on the suffix -an.

London, New York, Washington, even Paris would meet the criterion of being Roman. Modern western culture can legitimately be said to have descended from Rome.


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[trialbyfire]

LOL. That I agree with ..., with emphasis on the suffix -an.

London, New York, Washington, even Paris would meet the criterion of being Roman. Modern western culture can legitimately be said to have descended from Rome.


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Ok, so what city is very old - killed the saints, enslaved and desolated Israel and is still around so that the antichrist/beast destroys her?

What city, at the time of the Revelation, was THE great city that rules over the kings of the earth and still presumes to tell the nations of the world the proper course of action?

What city thinks that she is a queen of kingdoms, very rich, has control over people of all nations and tongues?

What city is full of Babylonian practices? - called the "daughter of Babylon" and is in the land of the North.

What city is the "Mother" of the harlots? - meaning there are other, lesser ones.

What city is hated by the devil and by God but for different reasons?

Look at Rev 17/18, Isaiah 47 and Zech 2 from an overall, 2000 year perspective. What is her history according to those prophetic Scriptures?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Ok, so what city is very old - killed the saints, enslaved Israel and is still around so that the antichrist/beast destroys her?

What city, at the time of the Revelation, was THE great city that rules over the kings of the earth?

What city thinks that she is a queen of kingdoms, very rich, has control over people of all nations and tongues?

What city is full of Babylonian practices? - called the "daughter of Babylon" and is in the land of the North.

There has already been a more comprehensive list of major characteristics provided earlier in this thread, trial. Instead of using that list though, you have focused on just the few characteristics which fit your pre-conceived belief. You ignore characteristics which interfere with your belief and focus only on those which support your belief.

I believe God wants us to understand and debate the whole TRUTH, not just the part that's convenient to our pre-conceived notions. History shows that many such beliefs have been silly and ill-conceived. But, hey, maybe that's just my perspective ...


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[trialbyfire]

I just realized something else. In order for mystery babylon to be destroyed in one day/one hour by fire - that's got to be a bomb - a big one, likely nuclear.


8Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Rev 17:16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

They stand far off for the fear of her torment and it says she is desolated.
That means that the beast and ten kings will have access to such a bomb. But they can't be Western - unless they are anti-western, liberal secularists. The beast/antichrist will be communistic/totalitarian and anti-Western.

 

[trialbyfire]

There has already been a more comprehensive list of major characteristics provided earlier in this thread, trial. Instead of using that list though, you have focused on just the few characteristics which fit your pre-conceived belief. You ignore characteristics which interfere with your belief and focus only on those which support your belief.

I believe God wants us to understand and debate the whole TRUTH, not just the part that's convenient to our pre-conceived notions. History shows that many such beliefs have been silly and ill-conceived. But, hey, maybe that's just my perspective ...


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Ok, let's use your list. Hold on and I'll post it here.

Ok, here's your list from the original post. I'll put my comments in blue:

Here's a summary of total characteristics given in Revelation 17 and 18 for the Great harlot:

- located in the wilderness --> kinda leaves out Rome?
It was John who was carried into the wilderness and shown the vision, not that the vision itself takes place in a wilderness. Jesus was tempted in the wilderness.

- drunken with blood of saints --> built on efforts of saints and/or martyred them
Yes, for her to be drunken on the blood of the saints of Jesus and still around at the time of the end when the beast arises means she's at least 2000 years old.

- sitting on seven mountains which are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues --> seven continents?
That's an interesting idea - could be. The seven heads refers to the beast, and the beast is global, so very good and likely!

- ten horns hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire --> world hates USA
Mexico doesn't hate the USA. Canada doesn't hate the USA. Australia and England don't hate the USA.
To me, this means that the beast will probably use a nuke to destroy her. Remember, she is described as a city.

- great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth --> London, New York, Rome, Moscow?
In the time of Revelation, it was definitely Rome. Today, it is certainly Rome given the pope's involvement in world affairs.

- merchants waxed rich through abundance of her delicacies --> New York, Washington?
The Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire was exceedingly wealthy as is Western society, that stemmed from Rome.


- habitation of devils, hold of every foul spirit, cage of every unclean bird
Seen any weeping statues lately? How about tales visions and apparitions? Or maybe "miracles" from dead saints?

- all nations drink the wine of her delicacies
Again, rich - over 1 billion members of all nations worldwide.

- sins reached into heaven
Claims Christianity but has babylonian practices. Killed the saints. Desolated Israel.


- says "I sit a queen ... and shall see no sorrow." --> London?
The pope is titled "vicar of Christ" meaning, 'in the place of Christ". Considers herself "queen of kingdoms". Did you know that there were arguments between emperors and popes over the years of the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire as to which had more authority. Popes claimed authority of God.

- utterly burned with fire
Yes, and in only one hour/one day. People stand far off in fear. I think it's probably a nuke on Rome.

- merchants weep and mourn - no man buyeth their merchandise any more --> USA
The antichrist will institute the mark of the beast where no one will buy or sell unless they have it. Goodbye Capitalism which is Western/Roman.



- merchants of the earth made rich by her --> USA
Besides Babylon, I know of no other kingdom that was richer than the Roman empire and the West.



- all those with ships in the sea made rich by her -- USA
Wasn't it Rome that brought spices from the orient/international trading?

 

[trialbyfire]

Since the beast/antichrist hates the woman, why would that be?

The beast is global. The people of the world are following the beast, worshipping the beast as God.

What would the Roman Catholic Church do when a guy stands up and claims he's God with false miracles, blaspheming the God of Heaven? They would immediately denounce him/it. And he/it would destroy the RCC because it would be in the way of the antichrist's plans.

After all, the beast/antichrist/devil does make war with those who hold to the commandments and the testimony of Jesus.

 

[NightHawkeye]

And I'll add comments in red ...

Ok, let's use your list. Hold on and I'll post it here.

Ok, here's your list from the original post. I'll put my comments in blue:

Here's a summary of total characteristics given in Revelation 17 and 18 for the Great harlot:

- located in the wilderness --> kinda leaves out Rome?
It was John who was carried into the wilderness and shown the vision, not that the vision itself takes place in a wilderness. Jesus was tempted in the wilderness.
... LOL ... Imagination knows no bounds. I'll grant you this, even though the argument seems really weak.

- drunken with blood of saints --> built on efforts of saints and/or martyred them
Yes, for her to be drunken on the blood of the saints of Jesus and still around at the time of the end when the beast arises means she's at least 2000 years old.
I agree that Roman qualifies, as in any major western city ...

- sitting on seven mountains which are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues --> seven continents?
That's an interesting idea - could be. The seven heads refers to the beast, and the beast is global, so very good and likely!
I agree this could be said to apply to Vatican.

- ten horns hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire --> world hates USA
Mexico doesn't hate the USA. Canada doesn't hate the USA. Australia and England don't hate the USA.
To me, this means that the beast will probably use a nuke to destroy her. Remember, she is described as a city.
Mea culpa. Ya got me on semantics. The ten kings certainly hate her though. Likely there is not country as hated in the world as the USA. Also, no country where more people want to come than the USA. Believe it or not, the two go together. Don't see that this characteristic disqualifies Rome though.

- great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth --> London, New York, Rome, Moscow?
In the time of Revelation, it was definitely Rome. Today, it is certainly Rome given the pope's involvement in world affairs.
FAIL. You can say it all you want. Doesn't make it so though ...
Near as I can tell many/most world leaders simply tolerate the Pope, and are little influenced by his pronouncements.

- merchants waxed rich through abundance of her delicacies --> New York, Washington?
The Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire was exceedingly wealthy as is Western society, that stemmed from Rome.
OK. Since we're talking Roman.

- habitation of devils, hold of every foul spirit, cage of every unclean bird
Seen any weeping statues lately? How about tales visions and apparitions? Or maybe "miracles" from dead saints?
LOL. Maybe the Mafia qualifies ...

- all nations drink the wine of her delicacies
Again, rich - over 1 billion members of all nations worldwide.
OK. Since we're talking Roman.

- sins reached into heaven
Claims Christianity but has babylonian practices. Killed the saints. Desolated Israel.
No argument.

- says "I sit a queen ... and shall see no sorrow." --> London?
The pope is titled "vicar of Christ" meaning, 'in the place of Christ". Considers herself "queen of kingdoms". Did you know that there were arguments between emperors and popes over the years of the Roman Empire/Holy Roman Empire as to which had more authority. Popes claimed authority of God.
FAIL. As I said previously, both Rome and the Vatican have had their share of truly humbling experiences. Consider that until 9/11, the USA considered itself an untouchable super-power. Reading the policy paper released by the George Bush White House after 9/11 will give you an idea of the level of that arrogance ...

- utterly burned with fire
Yes, and in only one hour/one day. People stand far off in fear. I think it's probably a nuke on Rome.
After it happens, we'll probably know clearly. Of course, that will be the time of wrath, so by then it may not matter.

- merchants weep and mourn - no man buyeth their merchandise any more --> USA
The antichrist will institute the mark of the beast where no one will buy or sell unless they have it. Goodbye Capitalism which is Western/Roman.
FAIL. The demise of Rome, while it would be traumatic for the western world seems, by itself, very unlikely to greatly disrupt the world economy.

- merchants of the earth made rich by her --> USA
Besides Babylon, I know of no other kingdom that was richer than the Roman empire and the West.
FAIL. See above.

- all those with ships in the sea made rich by her -- USA
Wasn't it Rome that brought spices from the orient/international trading?
FAIL. See above.

It still seems that a number of attributes are not satisfied for the Catholic church.

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[trialbyfire]

In the time of John's Revelation, who was the "great city that rules over the kings of the earth"? The known world was the Roman empire.

Revelation 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Maps of the Roman World in the First Century C.E.

 

[NightHawkeye]

In the time of John's Revelation, who was the "great city that rules over the kings of the earth"? The known world was the Roman empire.

Revelation 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Maps of the Roman World in the First Century C.E.

LOL.

We've already agreed that Rome was a great city, back in the day ...

... not so much any more. Rome ranks 43rd in GDP, worldwide, well below Seoul at 21, Shanghai at 25th, or Singapore at 27. Even medium-sized US cities, such as San Francisco at 18th and Dallas at 14th, far outrank Rome economically in the modern world. (Source: List of cities by GDP - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Just for the sake of completeness, I'll point out that Tokyo ranks 1st, NYC 2nd, LA 3rd, Chicago 4th, London 5th, Paris 6th, Osaka 7th, Mexico City 8th, Philadelphia 9th and Sao Paulo, Brazil 10th.

As already pointed out, just consider the ramifications of Rome being turned to ashes today. While it would be a terrible personal tragedy to many, in the same way that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were tragic, it would not directly affect the world economy greatly. Even the Catholic church would recover from such a blow, IMHO.



Now ..., if you'd suggested that all western cities (which derive from Rome) will be turned to ashes according to prophecy, then IMHO there is a lot more merit in that argument. Just my $0.02, of course.


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[Jensghost]

I think you have to look at Revelation 17 and 18 from a larger context. Nighthawkeye appears to be looking around at the world of today and trying to pin the tail on mystery babylon when the context is at least 2 millenia.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I think you have to look at Revelation 17 and 18 from a larger context. Nighthawkeye appears to be looking around at the world of today and trying to pin the tail on mystery babylon when the context is at least 2 millenia.

Huh?

I've been quite direct with my words.

As for the two millennia ...

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
​

The context here is clearly not two millennia. Nor here ...

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
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Jen, you can pick and choose scripture for only what's convenient to the moment, ignoring what ill suits your pre-conceived notions ...

... or you can constantly seek to gain greater understanding. Your choice.


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[Jensghost]

Huh?

I've been quite direct with my words.

As for the two millennia ...

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
​

The context here is clearly not two millennia. Nor here ...

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: 12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
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Jen, you can pick and choose scripture for only what's convenient to the moment, ignoring what ill suits your pre-conceived notions ...

... or you can constantly seek to gain greater understanding. Your choice.


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I agree that the moment of her destruction is on a single day or in a single hour.

But for those ship-people to have gotten wealthy by her takes time. Look at all the goods she traded in! "Chariots" is one of them. That's not very modern. When was the last time you bought "frankincense"? I just read that frankincense comes from asia and east africa.

Is there anything on that list, besides Chariots, that dates mystery Babylon, as far as her age?

When was the last time slaves were openly traded like that? I believe that the fact that she trades in "souls of men" is descriptive of her religiosity.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I agree that the moment of her destruction is on a single day or in a single hour.

But for those ship-people to have gotten wealthy by her takes time. Look at all the goods she traded in! "Chariots" is one of them. That's not very modern. When was the last time you bought "frankincense"? I just read that frankincense comes from asia and east africa.

Is there anything on that list, besides Chariots, that dates mystery Babylon, as far as her age?

When was the last time slaves were openly traded like that? I believe that the fact that she trades in "souls of men" is descriptive of her religiosity.

... sigh ...

Again, I'll repeat but with some re-wording ... the kings, merchants and shipowners live in the present and bemoan only what affects them directly. They might feel slightly saddened if a city of antiquity were eliminated from the face of the earth, but they would most asssuredly continue conducting business as usual with their regular customers. Most would be little affected by such a malady.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
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The weeping and mourning here is because the merchants have been put out of business, not remorse over the historical record.

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[Jensghost]

... sigh ...

Again, I'll repeat but with some re-wording ... the kings, merchants and shipowners live in the present and bemoan only what affects them directly. They might feel slightly saddened if a city of antiquity were eliminated from the face of the earth, but they would most asssuredly continue conducting business as usual with their regular customers. Most would be little affected by such a malady.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
​

The weeping and mourning here is because the merchants have been put out of business, not remorse over the historical record.

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Oh, I see what you are saying. Excuse my blindness on that one.

Yes, at the moment of her destruction, there are current ships and merchants that see her destruction.

 

[Jensghost]

Then, yeah, given current events, it's Western or Roman (Babylonian) society, I would think.

The great city could very well be Rome and mystery babylon could be the Roman Empire or Western society.

The governments of the world are doing their best to bring down capitalism (Western economy) and institute a form of government where the people are dependent on government.

Capitalism is the Roman form based on Babylon, isn't it?

I don't know, I feel like I'm just stabbing in the dark.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Then, yeah, given current events, it's Western or Roman (Babylonian) society, I would think.

The great city could very well be Rome and mystery babylon could be the Roman Empire or Western society.

The governments of the world are doing their best to bring down capitalism (Western economy) and institute a form of government where the people are dependent on government.

Capitalism is the Roman form based on Babylon, isn't it?

I don't know, I feel like I'm just stabbing in the dark.

A little digging reveals that Babylon was in ruins before Christ was even born. Revelation clearly was not talking about the city of Babylon per se. Some have extended Babylon to mean Baghdad, but that seems a bit of a stretch.

Some major characteristics were:
- Thriving commerce
- Idols of gold and silver
- Presumed largest city in the world at its peak.
- People ignored God
- Totalitarian rule

Babylon certainly doesn't meet the modern definition of capitalism, although that was part of the culture. Perhaps the main issue with Babylon was self-aggrandizement, an over-inflated sense of self as summarized:

Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
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Few places in the world have ever had that perspective: Babylon apparently, Rome, according to historical accounts, during the empire, London in the days of the British empire, Paris under Napolean perhaps, New York today.

I suspect Mystery Babylon refers to more than a single city though. There are confirming scriptures indicating that cities (plural) will be destroyed. Couple that with the description of the woman-in-travail fleeing into the wilderness and the picture becomes one of minimal existence for some short period of time.

Just my $0.02, of course.

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