Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

Uber Genius · Nov 14, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
the great mystery and the inward life of believers.

So we would need a clear definition of soterion or sozo in relation to OT Jews.

We find those who had faith in God, and we find those who were described as the remnant, but where were they after they died? In heaven?

1 pet. 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which is include in the Apostle's Creed. "he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again."

So that and the rich man and Lazarus parable all suggest that these faithful did not go to heaven but were waiting in a place referred to as Abraham's bosom.

If we are going to describe them as "saved" then who was Jesus preaching to?

Why were souls like Samuel the Prophet not in heaven if ey were in fact saved?

Over and over we see the Scriptures talking about salvation only bein made possible by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If that is not necessary for salvation then did God needlessly condemn hos son to torture?

LoveofTruth said:
You might want to consider Romans 2:14,15 around there about the Gentiles who did not have the scriptures of the mosaic law specifically and how they had Gods natural way of dealing with all men

Paul is making a logical progression that neither Jew nor Gentile can fulfill righteousness. Which he concludes in Romans 3:10 and 3:23.

If "none" are good and "all" fall short then faith rather than works, and Christ atoning death Romans 5 and 6, then NONE in the OT are saved.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Nov 15, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was a sheep of jesus one if HIS disciples whom followed jesus and in the end he fell by transgression and was lost then.

LoveofTruth said:
and Lucifer was created ( as scriptures shows) perfect in all his ways. So if he was unclean he would not be said to have been perfect in all his ways.

Sometimes the truth is so simple and clear to the unbiased reader, there is no need to try and avoid the simple reality of the text.

You forgot the word 'until' Ezekiel 28:14-16
An interesting sidenote to the story is that the potter's field was purchased with the gold that was paid for Jesus' betrayal. Foriegn visitors who died in Jerusalem were buried there.

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

tatteredsoul said:
I am not so sure, because this would mean the entity Satan could snatch one from Christ's hand - which is categorically against what Christ said (not to mention it endows one with hopelessness concerning their salvation.)

Also, we have evidence that Judas repented for his sin - as in, he had a change of heart in truth. When Judas tried to return the money he got for selling out Christ, the pharisees were the ones who rejected it calling it blood money.

Then, somehow he killed himself AND disemboweled himself?

It sounds like, being such a high ranking member of Christ''s army, once he repented he was heavily assaulted by demons - psychologicallly, spiritually and physically.

In other words, Judas had a job to do that no man would ever want - to be the betrayer of the Christ. But, as Christ said even blasphemies can be forgiven, except against the Holy Spirit.

Remember, Peter directly denied Christ three times, then he repented immediately.

Even Judas' crime, I believe, can and likely is forgiven. Otherwise, all of us need to be worried about the Enemy''s ability to tempt us to the point where we lose our salvation - despite repentence.

Tattersoul, IT clearly states in this verse...

Act 1:25

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Judas fell by transgression and it doesn't state anywhere else he was restored.

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

SeventyOne said:
(staff edit)

IN YOUR OPINION, that means he was saved, but the text doesn't support the conclusion. You have to make those sent in the condition of sheep among wolves to being actual sheep in a spiritual sense. Still grasping at straws with the inaccurate equivication.

I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so.

The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text.

I've misled no one and I've twisted nothing. The twisting and misleading started at the title of this thread. It is this thread teaching a salvation by works, a false gospel.

SeventyOne, this thread is NOT teaching a salvation by works, you miss the point!

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
You said

"I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so."

the verse in Psalms says that they were blotted out of the book of the living. But those in that book are the righteous as the verses show. So if a person was in that book they were written with the RIGHTEOUS", not the unrighteous. This shows that Judas was once righteous and in the book. To not come into thy righteousness, is different than the righteous in that book. To come into the righteousness is to come into the kingdom of God and heaven. The kingdom of God is righteousness joy and peace in the Holy Ghost, and only those who are saved in the book will come into that righteousness. Into a new place wherein dwells righteousness.

again you don't understand the text and miss many parts.

You also said,

"The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text."

no John wrote by the Spirit of God not his own words as Paul did when Paul said the things he writes were the commandments of the Lord 1 Cor 14:37, John also wrote by the Spirit. So when John says this he spoke of Judas who should betray him. John was giving the Spirits interpretation of what Jesus mean when he spoke. The words "should betray him" are future tense. Jesus often spoke of things in prophetic as though they were. We see this in John 17 when Jesus ( before his death on the cross said,

"4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." ( John 17:4)

Yet Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet. He spoke prophetically as if it had happened. God told Abrahma similar about his seed etc.

But even if you don't see this Jesus was speaking of Judas after three years or so of ministry, near the end of his ministry. matthew shows Judas at the beginning of his ministry. Obviously Judas fell away by transgression from the place he was before. To say Judas by transgression "fell" in Acts sows he fell from something, And this is not referring to his ministry only, but he fell by transgression. He had abstained part of the ministry and was just as successful as others. One time when disciples came back from ministry Jesus told them not to rejoice that the devils are subject to them but that there names are written in the lambs book of life.

I wish to concur with this, with this scripture...

Rev 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

It says here in this verse, the righteous will NOT be blotted OUT of the book of life. IF someone's name can be blotted OUT, then their name was already in that book of life, in order for it to be blotted out. Hmm

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

Tree of Life said:
Perhaps you could articulate our heresy here. I'd genuinely like to see if what you think that we think is actually what we really think.

Tree of life....

Are we to follow Apollos or Paul? or Calvin or Jesus?

1Co 1:10

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

SeventyOne said:
It runs even deeper than that. A born again person is a new creation. One would have to be recreated again to the old man to be "unsaved". That takes an act of God, literally.

SeventyOne...

Mat 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Those who ENDURE (continue on in the faith) unto the END (in other words NOT depart from the faith) the same shall be saved. In other words, it's on-going, we are to continue on, persevere, overcome.

Examine ourselves daily, whether we be in the faith.

2Co 13:5

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Why Does Paul exhort US to examine ourselves daily IF we are in the faith?, it's because SOME can fall from the faith and become reprobates. A reprobate is someone that was ONCE in the faith. Paul is speaking to the saved here, the faithful, not the unsaved.

1Ti 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

SOME shall depart from the faith, WELL they have to be "IN" the faith, to depart from it... thus giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Hmm

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

Far Side Of the Moon said:
Then what about doubting thomas? What about peter who denied christ 3 times and god still saved him by praying for him?- what about judas being called the son of perdition? And it being prophesied that he was?

Peter who denied Jesus 3 times, REPENTED and was restored, that's the difference, he had godly sorrow. Whereas, Judas who fell by transgression felt sorry for what he had done, it was not a godly sorrow which leads to repentance.

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
It will get me everywhere in this discussion, because they are used as a warning for believers, if they had no relevance then they would not be quoted in scripture as a reference.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell"

and God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels, yet even humans who die in unbelief and sin will end up there

the point with angels is that they are eternal beings in the light of Christ and yet they can be lost in the lake of fire . They can go from the highest state and still lose their place and burn.

the angel argument is unanswerable to the eternal security groups. They usually have not even considered it let alone try to fit it into their theology, from what i have seen so far .

Interesting, I never considered this, thanks for bringing this up!!

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
The warning is for those who think they do not need the Savior. The warning is that God wants sin atoned for.

God doesn't compare us to angels, except to show that rebellion is rebellion.

1Co 6:3

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
I think you still need to show that Judas had the Spirit with him. God's Word says that one cannot serve to masters, they will love one and hate the other. So if Judas had the Spirit, he wouldn't have betrayed Christ.

Judas had free will to obey or disobey...

1Ti 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

aiki said:
Being born again, being saved, is something unique to the New Testament and is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There were some in the Old Testament upon whom God's Spirit rested, but they were not saved in the sense in which post-Calvary believers are saved until after Christ was resurrected. Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself before Jesus had atoned for sin on the cross and was resurrected. Judas, then, was never saved and could not, therefore, lose his salvation.

Selah.

aiki....

Well, what about everyone before the resurrection, in the Old Testament then, none of them were saved?, because it was before Jesus' crucifixion?

You're not making sense... We are to rightly divide the Word of truth...

2Ti 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

miknik5 · Nov 16, 2016

TheMissingRib said:
SeventyOne...

Mat 24:13

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Those who ENDURE (continue on in the faith) unto the END (in other words NOT depart from the faith) the same shall be saved. In other words, it's on-going, we are to continue on, persevere, overcome.

Examine ourselves daily, whether we be in the faith.

2Co 13:5

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Why Does Paul exhort US to examine ourselves daily IF we are in the faith?, it's because SOME can fall from the faith and become reprobates. A reprobate is someone that was ONCE in the faith. Paul is speaking to the saved here, the faithful, not the unsaved.

1Ti 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

SOME shall depart from the faith, WELL they have to be "IN" the faith, to depart from it... thus giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Hmm

Please remember that those who "go out". By their "going out" make manifest that they were never with us

Judas "went out"
Those who want to leave HIM too, will make manifest that they were never with HIM to begin with

miknik5 · Nov 16, 2016

1 John 5 already identifies those who overcame

The work is to remain in HIM. but when evil runs rampant and truth is cast down many will "go out" and make manifest by their deeds that they did not even know whose SPIRIT they claimed themselves to be of

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
Hello again, there are many things I can say about infant salvation from scripture. I just haven't posted them yet. The bible has lots to say about this. Because some haven't seen it or understand this or even considered these things does not mean the bible is silent on this and has little to say. There all sorts of scriptures about this.

I would like to see these scriptures one day, it would be good to read!

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

LoveofTruth said:
God bless, and yes there are many, many passages showing a person can be saved and lose it. They are so clear and powerful it takes a lot of scriptural twisting by the other side to avoid them.

To me the angels that sinned and are an example to us in scripture as a warning show clearly the danger, and infant salvation that all one day old children were saved at that time they were born and if they died they would be with God, defeats many points of the Calvinistic view and also the child OCAS idea as well.

And Judas is a good example of this as I have been trying to show from scripture. Many just avoid it as you said and others twist it to make the text say what it doesn't say. Traditions of men and doctrines of men do not go easily.

Consider also Jeremiah 23 about the false prophets who promise peace to those who are in wickedness, and strengthen the hands of evil men. This is like some OSAS ideas that say you are still ok if you are in wickedness and unbelief.

Consider also Hebrews 3:12-14 or so. This is unanswerable by the OSAS camp. I have never heard a good answer from their side on that section of scripture. It shows that we don't lose salvation by works but by unbelief in the heart. Sin hardens us and the danger of continuing in sin is to he hardened to the danger of unbelief. As the writer warns to believers, including himself in the chapter. There are so many other verses which would take all day to go through.

But I feel for your conviction, I have been there also. And its good that you want to gather in homes with other believers. This is the biblical apostolic pattern. The traditions of men creating these large man made buildings and calling them churches and the house of God etc is false and sets in the minds of others a false church and the very function of the church cannot happen in these lecturere formats. In these religious forms the body is silent and cannot minister to each other as they are commanded to do in scripture ( 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11, Romans 12, Ephesians 4:11-16, Colossians 3 etc) and they have one man as a master and Lord over the flock unlike the biblical order in God where there are elders ( plural) in every church ( singular).

If you send me your email I can send you a Newsletter I put out with another friend on this and i can send a letter I wrote to a church recently about these things.

If you lived in Ontario It would be easier to work with another home meeting.

God bless

Actually, I would be interested in reading this Newsletter as well, if you could send it to me too? This would help me greatly in my current fellowships. Thanks!

TheMissingRib · Nov 16, 2016

Be back later!

TheMissingRib · Nov 17, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
How does that change anything? We are all called many things if we have anywhere near a considerable number of posts here on the forums. What I am showing you is that as much as you speak of not sinning, you are sinning in your posts by belittleing others.

If you want to talk the talk, then you should be able to walk the walk, otherwise people see right through it.

What are the fruit of the Spirit?

.......sigh

SeventyOne · Nov 17, 2016

TheMissingRib said:
SeventyOne, this thread is NOT teaching a salvation by works, you miss the point!

Yes, it is, and if you agree with it, then you also believe in salvation by works. There may indeed be other points I'm missing, but this isn't one of them.

TheMissingRib · Nov 17, 2016

SeventyOne said:
Yes, it is, and if you agree with it, then you also believe in salvation by works. There may indeed be other points I'm missing, but this isn't one of them.

SeventyOne... I agree with the Words of Jesus Christ!!

I disagree with your personal assumption about what you think I am agreeing and disagreeing with, your pre-supposition is in-accurate and you are in err in your views.

Whom are you following? Calvin or Jesus Christ?

1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

You are free to disagree with me, however I am not here to argue the point about what you think.

I agree with the Word of God and the Word of God says what it means and means what it says. I've read all of "LoveofTruth's" threads, he is consistant and is rightly dividing the Word of truth. He gives clear answers, with scriptures, which you refuse to consider.

I am NOT ashamed of the gospel that saves.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

You beg to differ, based on your biased doctrines and beliefs, which, however, when presented with the Word of God, you disagree.

"LoveofTruth" has clearly given clear answers, according to the Word of God, and he does not preach a works based salvation and neither do I.

The "once saved always saved" doctrine is false and heresy. "LoveofTruth" is exposing the dangers and lies in the doctrines of men. He is presenting truth and what the Word of God says, in order that you may be set free.

I am thankful for the truth.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

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