Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[SeventyOne]

at the beginning of Judas ministry he had obtained the ministry and part of it, and later at the end of jesus ministry Judas fell away and betrayed him. Judas was not always lost

Works don't grant salvation. That's a false gospel.

 

[faroukfarouk]

At one time Judas was. Jesus said he was of his household and had the Spirit of the father speaking in him and was a sheep. So to be a sheep , (or as a sheep since none is actually a literal sheep) and to have the father speaking in you and to give the peace of God to theories and be of jesus household you can only do this in faith. Judas also had obtained part of the ministry. The ministry can only be done in Christ.

But Judas was not genuine; this is my understanding.

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is just a bunch of weird stuff ^

I'm not convinced that you actually understand the doctrines of grace because you've not yet attempted to articulate them. Could you do this for us please?

To talk of the grace of God and the working of that grace in salvation is a massive talk.

i speak of things you may never have been taught, but that is because you have been cloistered in a wrong doctrine for a while and taught by false teachers. Infant salvation is a big issue. Consider this and see if calvinism or TULIP stands. Also The angels that sinned and are an example and warning to believers, They had life and were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire as all unbelievers will as well. Did angels never have life > whee they never with God?

 

[Tree of Life]

To talk of the grace of God and the working of that grace in salvation is a massive talk.

i speak of things you may never have been taught, but that is because you have been cloistered in a wrong doctrine for a while and taught by false teachers. Infant salvation is a big issue. Consider this and see if calvinism or TULIP stands. Also The angels that sinned and are an example and warning to believers, They had life and were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire as all unbelievers will as well. Did angels never have life > whee they never with God?

A 1-2 sentence summary of each of the 5 points would do. 10 sentences max. You can't do that?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Works don't grant salvation. That's a false gospel.

I never said our works grant salvation , ever.

God works in all those who believe. By faith we enter into the grace by which we are saved. Gods grace is his unmerited favour and divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life of those who are saved.

I believe we are saved by grace through faith, and then as we are saved we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. These good works we do in Christ are not what saves us. But if we are not in such works then is faith working by love? are we manifesting the work of God in our lives.

I know many on the false Calvinistic eternal security side cannot imagine anyone who disagrees with them not teaching works to save themselves. But i do not teach that. Paul said by hearing and believing the gospel are we saved.

and as we keep this in memory or else we have believed in vain. The Galatians heard the truth and believed and were saved and had the Spirit then they went back to the works of the law and fell from grace ( if they did such things). Paul said to them that he stood in doubt of them. that doesn't sound like he promised them eternal security to tell those who once believed that he stood in doubt of them and that he desired that he traveled in birth AGAIN until Christ be formed in them.

 

[tatteredsoul]

He was always lost. He shared the same title as the antichrist, the man of sin, as the "son of perdition." John 17:12 and 2 Thes 2:3

Right.

My only qualm was the fact that no one can be snatched out of the hands of Christ - including, and especially by the Enemy.

If we agree Judas was always lost, then this works (even if he showed remorse.)

If we are to say Judas was once an actual "digit" on the hand of God - one of His in His hand - then that is where I see a problem.

Because, Christ stated no one can be snatched from Him/His hand. But, if Judas was never in His hand in the first place, then it isn't an issue. (Christ designating him as a disciple is a nonsequetor to his salvation in the sense that being chosen doesn't necessarily mean you are automatically saved.)

Judas, to me, mimics the tribe of Dan.

 

[SeventyOne]

I never said our works grant salvation , ever.

God works in all those who believe. By faith we enter into the grace by which we are saved. Gods grace is his unmerited favour and divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life of those who are saved.

I believe we are saved by grace through faith, and then as we are saved we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. These good works we do in Christ are not what saves us. But if we are not in such works then is faith working by love? are we manifesting the work of God in our lives.

I know many on the false Calvinistic eternal security side cannot imagine anyone who disagrees with them not teaching works to save themselves. But i do not teach that. Paul said by hearing and believing the gospel are we saved.

and as we keep this in memory or else we have believed in vain. The Galatians heard the truth and believed and were saved and had the Spirit then they went back to the works of the law and fell from grace ( if they did such things). Paul said to them that he stood in doubt of them. that doesn't sound like he promised them eternal security to tell those who once believed that he stood in doubt of them and that he desired that he traveled in birth AGAIN until Christ be formed in them.

Actually, you did. You are saying Judas was saved because he had a ministry (a work) and then lost it by not keeping from a particular sin (also a work). You might think you believe one is saved by grace through faith, but that is not what you are proclaiming and defending.

 

[faroukfarouk]

To talk of the grace of God and the working of that grace in salvation is a massive talk.

i speak of things you may never have been taught, but that is because you have been cloistered in a wrong doctrine for a while and taught by false teachers. Infant salvation is a big issue. Consider this and see if calvinism or TULIP stands. Also The angels that sinned and are an example and warning to believers, They had life and were perfect in all their ways and yet they will end up in the lake of fire as all unbelievers will as well. Did angels never have life > whee they never with God?

Ephesians 2 speaks of believers having been raised up by God's grace even when they were dead in sins. Grace is a wonderful thread running through the believer's experience of God's salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus. I think you would probably believe this also.

I don't see angels as sinners saved by faith in the way humans are.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Right.

My only qualm was the fact that no one can be snatched out of the hands of Christ - including, and especially by the Enemy.

If we agree Judas was always lost, then this works (even if he showed remorse.)

If we are to say Judas was once an actual "digit" on the hand of God - one of His in His hand - then that is where I see a problem.

Because, Christ stated no one can be snatched from Him/His hand. But, if Judas was never in His hand in the first place, then it isn't an issue. (Christ designating him as a disciple is a nonsequetor to his salvation in the sense that being chosen doesn't necessarily mean you are automatically saved.)

Judas, to me, mimics the tribe of Dan.

I would agree with your understanding here, generally speaking. John reinforces that no one can pluck true believers from either the Father's or the Son's hand.

 

[LoveofTruth]

A 1-2 sentence summary of each of the 5 points would do. 10 sentences max. You can't do that?

A 1-2 sentence summary of each of the 5 points would do. 10 sentences max. You can't do that?

Some assume the if others understood the TULIP they could not possibly disagree with it. Tis is not true

here is a basic understanding

"

TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

(Genesis 2:15-17, Romans 5:12, Psalm 51:5, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Jeremiah 17:9 John 6:44, Ephesians 2:1-10)



UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

(Romans 9:10-21, Ephesians 1:4-11, Ephesians 2:4-10, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48)




LIMITED ATONEMENT
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

(Matthew 1:21, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, Philippians 1:6, John 10:11-30, John 17:6-12, Romans 8:28-30, John 6:44, Acts 20:28)



IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected-it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, and to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

(John 3:16, Matthew 22:14, Acts 17:29-31, Matthew 23:37-39, John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, John 1:12-13, John 3:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-10)



PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

(John 3:16, John 6:35-40, John 6:44, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:35-39)

 

[LoveofTruth]

Ephesians 2 speaks of believers having been raised up by God's grace even when they were dead in sins. Grace is a wonderful thread running through the believer's experience of God's salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus. I think you would probably believe this also.

I don't see angels as sinners saved by faith in the way humans are.

But angels sinned and because of that sin the writers of the new testament use them as a warning . If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell). this warning shows that even those in the highest place can fall. They were in the life and perfect and yet will end up in the lake of fire.

This is a strong case showing a holy being can fall and go away from God.

if God does not force the angels to be with him, then he will not force anyone else. Contrary to the teachings of some who make our faith a fatalism of sorts and make God treat humans a robots with no choice or faith or will.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Actually, you did. You are saying Judas was saved because he had a ministry (a work) and then lost it by not keeping from a particular sin (also a work). You might think you believe one is saved by grace through faith, but that is not what you are proclaiming and defending.

I didn't say Judas was saved because he had a ministry. I am saying that because God was working in him shows his salvation

 

[Tree of Life]

Some assume the if others understood the TULIP they could not possibly disagree with it. Tis is not true

here is a basic understanding

"

TOTAL DEPRAVITY
Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature; therefore, he will not--indeed he cannot--choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ--it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation--it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

(Genesis 2:15-17, Romans 5:12, Psalm 51:5, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 3:10-18, Jeremiah 17:9 John 6:44, Ephesians 2:1-10)



UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

(Romans 9:10-21, Ephesians 1:4-11, Ephesians 2:4-10, Romans 8:29-30, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48)




LIMITED ATONEMENT
Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which united them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

(Matthew 1:21, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 3:21-26, Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, Philippians 1:6, John 10:11-30, John 17:6-12, Romans 8:28-30, John 6:44, Acts 20:28)



IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected-it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, and to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

(John 3:16, Matthew 22:14, Acts 17:29-31, Matthew 23:37-39, John 6:44, Romans 8:28-30, John 1:12-13, John 3:1-8, Ephesians 2:8-10)



PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

(John 3:16, John 6:35-40, John 6:44, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Jude 24-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:35-39)

*sigh*

Could you produce something in your own words please? This is copied and pasted from another website. This won't do to demonstrate that you actually understand the view that you're opposing.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I would agree with your understanding here, generally speaking. John reinforces that no one can pluck true believers from either the Father's or the Son's hand.

consider

2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but ifye forsake him, he will forsake you."

 

[faroukfarouk]

consider

2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but ifye forsake him, he will forsake you."

You don't mean to say that the Old Testament contradicts the Lord Jesus? and that this "proves" that what the Lord Jesus said about believers not being plucked out of His and His Father's hand, is wrong?

I can't think you mean this.

Also, in the Old Testament - before Pentecost - people were not born again and sealed by the indwelling Spirit as believers have been after Pentecost.

 

[John Hyperspace]

To my mind, the glaring problem with the proposal is that it is a contradiction in terms. If a man was "saved" from a robbery; he can't be "unsaved" later. How can someone be "saved" from something and then be "unsaved" from that something. It doesn't make sense. This is like an alcoholic at a bar saying "I was saved from alcohol" and I ask "Then how are you here drinking?" and he replies "I was unsaved from it" I would only say "Then you were never saved from alcohol, clearly."

If you're "saved" from something then you're saved. You can't be "unsaved" that doesn't make any sense. What exactly was Judas "saved from" that he was "unsaved from" later?

 

[LoveofTruth]

*sigh*

Could you produce something in your own words please? This is copied and pasted from another website. This won't do to demonstrate that you actually understand the view that you're opposing.

sigh. I dont agree with the views in full.

total depravity- man is totally depraved and in sin and cannot save himself or even seek God unless God initiates the action.

Unconditional Election - God elects people not by any faith or them meeting any conditions. He elects them before even the earth was to be saved. It is God who chose them regardless of anything.

Limited Atonement- Only those select group did Christ die for, whom he chose . Christ did not die for the sin of the whole world, only for the world of believers. And all others he intended to be lost, with no chance of salvation.

Irresistible grace - The Holy Spirits call to those God has chosen is irressitable and mans cooperation is not involved in this. He calls and draws only those who are elected. Not based on anything they do or receive. They can not resist this call inwardly

Perseverance of the Saints - All who are called and saved by God will be saved no matter what they do, their security is based on Gods keeping them.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You don't mean to say that the Old Testament contradicts the Lord Jesus? and that this "proves" that what the Lord Jesus said about believers not being plucked out of His and His Father's hand, is wrong?

I can't think you mean this.

Also, in the Old Testament - before Pentecost - people were not born again and sealed by the indwelling Spirit as believers have been after Pentecost.

No I don't mean that at all, i mean that that section goes in line with jesus words and shows that God is not the one who leaves it is men who have the choice to depart and forsake and deny him. God is there to help and draw back and save men. But if they abide not and deny him or forsake him then it is all on them.

jesus says that none can snatch them , and that is true as we abide in him.

and yes all OT saints were born again, the sealing of the Spirit was in the new covenant. Or the baptism with the Holy Ghost

But all OT saints were saved and born again the same way all new testament saints are. But we have the Holy Ghost baptism which they didn't.

 

[SeventyOne]

To my mind, the glaring problem with the proposal is that it is a contradiction in terms. If a man was "saved" from a robbery; he can't be "unsaved" later. How can someone be "saved" from something and then be "unsaved" from that something. It doesn't make sense. This is like an alcoholic at a bar saying "I was saved from alcohol" and I ask "Then how are you here drinking?" and he replies "I was unsaved from it" I would only say "Then you were never saved from alcohol, clearly."

If you're "saved" from something then you're saved. You can't be "unsaved" that doesn't make any sense. What exactly was Judas "saved from" that he was "unsaved from" later?

It runs even deeper than that. A born again person is a new creation. One would have to be recreated again to the old man to be "unsaved". That takes an act of God, literally.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Right.

My only qualm was the fact that no one can be snatched out of the hands of Christ - including, and especially by the Enemy.

If we agree Judas was always lost, then this works (even if he showed remorse.)

If we are to say Judas was once an actual "digit" on the hand of God - one of His in His hand - then that is where I see a problem.

Because, Christ stated no one can be snatched from Him/His hand. But, if Judas was never in His hand in the first place, then it isn't an issue. (Christ designating him as a disciple is a nonsequetor to his salvation in the sense that being chosen doesn't necessarily mean you are automatically saved.)

Judas, to me, mimics the tribe of Dan.

Jesus dindt say that men could not forsake him and deny him. This is always possible, but as we abide in him we are safe in him.

God said he is with men as they be with him but if they forsake him he will forsake them