LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

I for one, beg to differ....

"Not that many men in the world that have given their lives for the testimony of Jesus Christ"? How nice to say such a thing from an easy chair. However, doesn't sound like that is quite true to the rest of the currently watching world.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/12/aleppos-forgotten-christians
http://legalinsurrection.com/
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481
http://www.dohi.org/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joop-koopman/are-christians-persecuted_b_5085636.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/19/africa/libya-isis-executions-ethiopian-christians/index.html
http://www.meforum.org/3833/syria-islamist-crucifixion

Pretty admirable for "abominable apostates", huh?

Some of us have relatives in Allepo who are under fire RIGHT NOW simply for bearing their testimony of Jesus Christ--unto death. Some even had the opportunity to stay in safety, but went back to be with their families and congregations. And there was no need to shame them into returning either. So, when was the last Mormon "martyr" accounted for? JS? Right. Hmmm.....

I have read the history of the church, and know the sacrifice that thousands made for the early church to get started. I read the current news. I have a pretty good idea of the sacrifice men and women today give, even their lives for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

What I said did nothing to disrespect their sacrifices.

But of the billions of men and women that have lived upon this earth, only a tiny fraction of billions have given their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ. JS was 1 of them, along with many other Mormons of that time period who were put to death by marauding mobs. The time will come in the near future when we who are sitting in our easy chairs will be confronted with the kingdom of evil and will have to face the music. Will we have the courage to stand up and testify, knowing that we could die for our testimony?

You can respond to this post, but I will not respond back on this subject, there was no disrespect for fallen Christians in the past or present.

 

[tickingclocker]

I have read the history of the church, and know the sacrifice that thousands made for the early church to get started. I read the current news. I have a pretty good idea of the sacrifice men and women today give, even their lives for their testimony of Jesus Christ.

What I said did nothing to disrespect their sacrifices.

But of the billions of men and women that have lived upon this earth, only a tiny fraction of billions have given their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ. JS was 1 of them, along with many other Mormons of that time period who were put to death by marauding mobs. The time will come in the near future when we who are sitting in our easy chairs will be confronted with the kingdom of evil and will have to face the music. Will we have the courage to stand up and testify, knowing that we could die for our testimony?

You can respond to this post, but I will not respond back on this subject, there was no disrespect for fallen Christians in the past or present.

If you say so.

It's a touchy subject for post-1844 mormonism. I understand.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do I need to go on?[/QUOTTE


I wish you wouldn't----you use more words to say nothing than anyone I have met! However, I will try to rise to the occasion.

God IS spirit---To you that means something different than God is a spirit? OK---So Sparky is a dog is different meaning than Sparky is dog. A dog meaning one amongst others, whereas is meaning more like the definition of that word

Or to put it more "earthy"---Marylyn Monroe is a sex symbol------Marylyn Monroe is sex.


indefinite article "A"
1.
not any particular or certain one of a class or group:
a man; a chemical; a house.
2.
a certain; a particular:
one at a time; two of a kind; A Miss Johnson called.
3.
another; one typically resembling:
a Cicero in eloquence; a Jonah.
4.
one (used before plural nouns that are preceded by a quantifier singular in form): a hundred men(compare hundreds of men); a dozen times(compare dozens of times).
5.
indefinitely or nonspecifically (used with adjectives expressing number):
a great many years; a few stars.
6.
one (used before a noun expressing quantity):
a yard of ribbon; a score of times.
7.
any; a single:

Definition of "is-"

1. 
   1 : equal : homogeneous : uniform <isentropic>
   
   
2. 2 : isomeric <isocyanate>
   
   
3. 3 : for or from different individuals of the same species <isoagglutinin>

So, you prefer the GOD IS SPIRIT----as in the very definition of Spirit----compared to GOD IS A SPIRIT--as in one of that kind.

OK----I'll take IS instead of A----God is Spirit-----you bet He is!!!

I did in posting 5 & 6

No, you did not prove anything, you stated there was an apostasy. I can do the same thing--there was no apostasy---there I proved it!!

 

[Rescued One]

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Foxes Book of Martyrs.pdf

 

[Super14LDS]

Aloha is a spirit too.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

There are not that many men in the world that have given their life for the testimony of Jesus Christ. JS is one of them.

This is such an ignorant statement. One need look no further than the Armenian Genocide to see that millions were martyred. The Armenians were given the option by the Turks to renounce Christ and convert to Islam to be spared. A tiny amount did while more than 1.5 million did not and were slaughtered for their faith in Christ. The same happened throughout the history of the Armenians when they were slaughtered by Persians and other Islamic and pagan attackers.

Meanwhile, Joseph Smith didn't die for his testimony. Joseph Smith died because he enraged local Americans by committing polygamy with some of their wives and by destroying a printing press of a paper that was reporting his polygamy, something he desired to keep hidden from his wife Emma. Joseph Smith is far from being a martyr. There are hardly any mormon martyrs while there are millions upon millions of Christian martyrs.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

How do you know your not the twisting the scriptures? You want me to beleive the way you understand them but I feel they mean something different. You think your right and I know I am because I have prayed about it and God has told me by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true.

Understanding the scriptures doesn't require "feeling" or personal interpretation. It is writing and it can be understood like any other writing on its own merit. The Holy Ghost's job isn't to tell you that the Bible is real or not. The Holy Ghost only convicts a person of right or wrong. To know what the Bible is saying one is supposed to study it, not pray and ask God if it's true. Faith that is rooted in fact is what tells a person the Bible is true. Feeling is not a major factor.

For Christians it's Fact, then Faith, then (maybe) Feeling. Mormons turn that around to be Feeling then Faith and then (maybe) Fact. Mormon is completely opposite of Christianity.

 

[mmksparbud]

Aloha is a spirit too.

What do you mean "too?" That is just Aramaic for God---And your point????

Cross References"> User Comments"> John 4:24 Commentaries & Bibles">4:24 For Aloha is a Spirit; and they who worship him, in spirit and in truth must worship.

 

[Peter1000]

This is such an ignorant statement. One need look no further than the Armenian Genocide to see that millions were martyred. The Armenians were given the option by the Turks to renounce Christ and convert to Islam to be spared. A tiny amount did while more than 1.5 million did not and were slaughtered for their faith in Christ. The same happened throughout the history of the Armenians when they were slaughtered by Persians and other Islamic and pagan attackers.

Meanwhile, Joseph Smith didn't die for his testimony. Joseph Smith died because he enraged local Americans by committing polygamy with some of their wives and by destroying a printing press of a paper that was reporting his polygamy, something he desired to keep hidden from his wife Emma. Joseph Smith is far from being a martyr. There are hardly any mormon martyrs while there are millions upon millions of Christian martyrs.

I agree about the Armenian Genocide, and I am proud of that people who chose to loose their lives instead of deny their testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

There has been apostasy since the beginning. The Church won't become apostate, or else Christ's words are false. But that there are many who fall away from the faith of the Church is evident throughout history. There has never been a shortage of heretics, self-proclaimed prophets, self-appointed apostles, and false teachers leading others away from the faith to heresy. But the Church, through all of this, stands true upon the firm foundation of her Lord who has said "not even the gates of Hades shall overcome it".

-CryptoLutheran

Mormons believe there have been many apostasies too, since the beginning. There was also an apostasy from the true primitive, NT church of Jesus Christ. It was not a full apostacy, for Jesus taught that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. But 500 years after the ascension of Christ, there was so much schism that the primitive, NT church was unrecognisable. There was a form of godliness, but so many changes had taken place as to cause an . apostasy from the NT church.

So there needed to be another restoration. The Lord promised JS that this new original church would be protected and break offs would not cause the original church schism problems so that it would always be recognised. The original church was needed to coordinate between heaven and earth the monumental events that would happen between now and the second coming. The Lord needed men such as apostles and prophets today to help manage the end times. The Lord has had prophets throughout the history of the world, why not have them available to help at this troubled time. It just makes sense.

 

[Peter1000]

If you'd actually read my posts, you wouldn't think of yourself in such a negative light.

I don't, our future is a light, shining on a hill to all nations to come unto Jesus Christ. We look forward to a marvelous resurrection and an incomprehensible eternity, if we can overcome this world and live in the presence of God and Jesus forever. It's all positive.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Mormons believe there have been many apostasies too, since the beginning. There was also an apostasy from the true primitive, NT church of Jesus Christ. It was not a full apostacy, for Jesus taught that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. But 500 years after the ascension of Christ, there was so much schism that the primitive, NT church was unrecognisable. There was a form of godliness, but so many changes had taken place as to cause an . apostasy from the NT church.

So there needed to be another restoration. The Lord promised JS that this new original church would be protected and break offs would not cause the original church schism problems so that it would always be recognised. The original church was needed to coordinate between heaven and earth the monumental events that would happen between now and the second coming. The Lord needed men such as apostles and prophets today to help manage the end times. The Lord has had prophets throughout the history of the world, why not have them available to help at this troubled time. It just makes sense.

So which restored church is the real restored church?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Perhaps it's time for a new prophet to restore the restoration?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tickingclocker]

Mormons believe there have been many apostasies too, since the beginning. There was also an apostasy from the true primitive, NT church of Jesus Christ. It was not a full apostacy, for Jesus taught that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. But 500 years after the ascension of Christ, there was so much schism that the primitive, NT church was unrecognisable. There was a form of godliness, but so many changes had taken place as to cause an . apostasy from the NT church.

So there needed to be another restoration. The Lord promised JS that this new original church would be protected and break offs would not cause the original church schism problems so that it would always be recognised. The original church was needed to coordinate between heaven and earth the monumental events that would happen between now and the second coming. The Lord needed men such as apostles and prophets today to help manage the end times. The Lord has had prophets throughout the history of the world, why not have them available to help at this troubled time. It just makes sense.

Prove your statements with historical facts, please, or else Mormons will remain the only people who will believe them as "fact". There can be no "restoration" of something that has never ceased to be. It may make sense in mormonism, because it shores up---mormonism. Such a theory falls apart outside mormonism on so many levels. (Please be pre-advised the "Dark Ages" were so named because of the Plagues decimating the world's population, not because of any spiritual "dumbing down" and/or spiritual "apostasy". Christianity does not believe "doctrine" saves. Jesus Christ saves.)

The Lord needs field workers to go to the Lost. Administrators do not save the Lost. They shuffle paperwork. God's chief goal is to save the Lost to glorify HIM. Not administrate a body of believers who know what He expects of them already, and has freely given them His power to do His work. No paperwork necessary. That is why He made every believer an independent "church". He never meant us to become some mechanized or "institutionalized" bloodless cocoon as mormonism promotes. We are a living, breathing organism moved by the Spirit. Not a mannequin, but an active, fully engaged, Living Bride of many different but fully equal parts.

Have you ever considered it was God's plan FOR the church to divide into so many variations, yet still holding the central core among every one of them? That Jesus saves? That Jesus is Lord? "Sameness" isn't all its cracked up to be, you know. Not to everyone. It can get quite stifling, attracting those who are frightened by change and life in general--because life IS change. (Not something God would want. Love should attract people to God. Never fear.) Its inevitable that "sameness" becomes the vehicle for so much abuse, and in so many areas, too. Maybe its in the way you look at variety and how you value it? Either it tends to frighten you on multiple levels, or, you embrace it for what it can offer. I occasionally visit different churches just to enjoy the variety--because I can, because it reminds me we are all equally valuable to God! God is being glorified, worshiped and obeyed in all different nations and cultures. The same is happening in all churches no matter the flavor. We are all not the same, because God Himself made us all different. Is God a one-dimensional Being to Christianity? Never. So why would He make us one-dimensional? We discover new facets about Him every single day, as individuals, as denominations, as parts of the Bride of Christ. Maybe that is why God refused to give all of Himself to any one "church"? No church has all of God's truth. Humans wouldn't be able to handle it. The arrogance level would become astronomical, knowing humanity's great weakness for pride. That's why Jesus picked a dozen men to facilitate spreading His Gospel. Not just one. Every one of them thought differently, interpreted differently, preached differently, and lived and died differently. But they all trusted in the same central core, that Jesus Christ saves.

No one can teach me to fear ever again. Try it. You just might come to value it for what it is.

 

[tickingclocker]

Mormons believe there have been many apostasies too, since the beginning. There was also an apostasy from the true primitive, NT church of Jesus Christ. It was not a full apostacy, for Jesus taught that the gates of hell should not prevail against it. But 500 years after the ascension of Christ, there was so much schism that the primitive, NT church was unrecognisable. There was a form of godliness, but so many changes had taken place as to cause an . apostasy from the NT church.

So there needed to be another restoration. The Lord promised JS that this new original church would be protected and break offs would not cause the original church schism problems so that it would always be recognised. The original church was needed to coordinate between heaven and earth the monumental events that would happen between now and the second coming. The Lord needed men such as apostles and prophets today to help manage the end times. The Lord has had prophets throughout the history of the world, why not have them available to help at this troubled time. It just makes sense.

Huh? What about "chaos" can be "managed"? Chaos, by its very definition, is purely UNmanagable. Is THIS what the LDS actually believes, or is it just your opinion?? That they are somehow going to "manage" the coming chaos? The only one who believes he will somehow "manage" chaos--to his own benefit, is Satan!

Managed chaos. Oh, my stars. That IS unadulterated pride in a nutshell. I'll take my chances with God's chaos, rather than any level of LDS "order" whatsoever, thanks all the same. Without any hesitation at all. Because scripture promises me when believers see it, there will be a reason for us to stand up and shout for pure JOY. Why would anyone think there will be any need to "manage" that?

Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness... (Zeph 1:14-15)

There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, STAND UP AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR. (Luke 21:25-36)

 

[Peter1000]

Prove your statements with historical facts, please, or else Mormons will remain the only people who will believe them as "fact". There can be no "restoration" of something that has never ceased to be. It may make sense in mormonism, because it shores up---mormonism. Such a theory falls apart outside mormonism on so many levels. (Please be pre-advised the "Dark Ages" were so named because of the Plagues decimating the world's population, not because of any spiritual "dumbing down" and/or spiritual "apostasy". Christianity does not believe "doctrine" saves. Jesus Christ saves.)

The Lord needs field workers to go to the Lost. Administrators do not save the Lost. They shuffle paperwork. God's chief goal is to save the Lost to glorify HIM. Not administrate a body of believers who know what He expects of them already, and has freely given them His power to do His work. No paperwork necessary. That is why He made every believer an independent "church". He never meant us to become some mechanized or "institutionalized" bloodless cocoon as mormonism promotes. We are a living, breathing organism moved by the Spirit. Not a mannequin, but an active, fully engaged, Living Bride of many different but fully equal parts.

Have you ever considered it was God's plan FOR the church to divide into so many variations, yet still holding the central core among every one of them? That Jesus saves? That Jesus is Lord? "Sameness" isn't all its cracked up to be, you know. Not to everyone. It can get quite stifling, attracting those who are frightened by change and life in general--because life IS change. (Not something God would want. Love should attract people to God. Never fear.) Its inevitable that "sameness" becomes the vehicle for so much abuse, and in so many areas, too. Maybe its in the way you look at variety and how you value it? Either it tends to frighten you on multiple levels, or, you embrace it for what it can offer. I occasionally visit different churches just to enjoy the variety--because I can, because it reminds me we are all equally valuable to God! God is being glorified, worshiped and obeyed in all different nations and cultures. The same is happening in all churches no matter the flavor. We are all not the same, because God Himself made us all different. Is God a one-dimensional Being to Christianity? Never. So why would He make us one-dimensional? We discover new facets about Him every single day, as individuals, as denominations, as parts of the Bride of Christ. Maybe that is why God refused to give all of Himself to any one "church"? No church has all of God's truth. Humans wouldn't be able to handle it. The arrogance level would become astronomical, knowing humanity's great weakness for pride. That's why Jesus picked a dozen men to facilitate spreading His Gospel. Not just one. Every one of them thought differently, interpreted differently, preached differently, and lived and died differently. But they all trusted in the same central core, that Jesus Christ saves.

No one can teach me to fear ever again. Try it. You just might come to value it for what it is.

That's certainly a different twist on why there are so many denominations around the Christian world, all teaching different saving doctrines. It is because God is not a 1-dimensional God and He sewed the differences in His churches. He did this so that 1 church would not become arrogant.

That is certainly a different approach that I haven't thought of before, I will have to give it some thought.

OK, I've thought about it. I don't think this is the reason for so many Christian denominations, all teaching different and conflicting saving doctrines. God loves unity and oneness, not conflict. Good try though.

 

[Peter1000]

Huh? What about "chaos" can be "managed"? Chaos, by its very definition, is purely UNmanagable. Is THIS what the LDS actually believes, or is it just your opinion?? That they are somehow going to "manage" the coming chaos? The only one who believes he will somehow "manage" chaos--to his own benefit, is Satan!

Managed chaos. Oh, my stars. That IS unadulterated pride in a nutshell. I'll take my chances with God's chaos, rather than any level of LDS "order" whatsoever, thanks all the same. Without any hesitation at all. Because scripture promises me when believers see it, there will be a reason for us to stand up and shout for pure JOY. Why would anyone think there will be any need to "manage" that?

Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness... (Zeph 1:14-15)

There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, STAND UP AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR. (Luke 21:25-36)

There are many important events that will happen before the second coming of Christ. It will be helpful for God to have apostles and prophets on the earth to assist where necessary in unfolding of some of these events. The entire earth must recieve the message of the Jesus Christ. That takes a lot of time and money and organization to accomplish a world-wide missionary program. Who better to manage this type of major program than an apostle of Jesus Christ, who can go all over the world and bear a special witness that Jesus lives, and encourage missionaries to keep up the pace for the end is near.

The last days are going to be interesting. We will all be busy helping the Lord.

 

[Peter1000]

So which restored church is the real restored church?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Perhaps it's time for a new prophet to restore the restoration?

-CryptoLutheran

When Jesus Christ restored the church, he promised JS that there would be inevitable off-shoots. But these off=shoots would never be anything that would be a rival to his church. So in fulfillment of prophecy, that is exactly what has happened.

So you can tell the real restored church by it's size and fruits. In Salt Lake City is the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have given the statistics before, so suffice it to say it is by far, without question, the real church of Jesus Christ.

So remember the prophecy and you will never be confused over that issue again. Thanks for asking.

 

[Peter1000]

If that's what you want to believe, dream on and stop making ridiculous assumptions about non-Mormons.

The victim look ain't a pretty one, Peter!

I'm not sure what post you are responding to.

I have never said I was a victim. I enjoy life. Life is good. What I said was, there may come a time when all of us will have to stand up and testify for Jesus Christ, even if it may mean that we loose our lives. I hope we are up to doing that.

 

[tickingclocker]

That's certainly a different twist on why there are so many denominations around the Christian world, all teaching different saving doctrines. It is because God is not a 1-dimensional God and He sewed the differences in His churches. He did this so that 1 church would not become arrogant.

That is certainly a different approach that I haven't thought of before, I will have to give it some thought.

OK, I've thought about it. I don't think this is the reason for so many Christian denominations, all teaching different and conflicting saving doctrines. God loves unity and oneness, not conflict. Good try though.

What is it about there being ONLY TWO camps of salvation are you failing to understand? Faith alone or faith plus works---is all there is. TWO. There are NO other "plans of salvation". And mormonism came down in one that ALREADY EXISTED when JS claimed God supposedly said Christianity's creeds were an "abomination" to Him... Which was an abomination then? Faith alone? Or faith alone AND faith plus works, Peter? Because there were some Christian churches in existence at that time which believed what mormonism believes about faith plus works..... Because there were "so many salvation plans" as you claimed, when there have always been only these TWO all along.

Maybe you should have thought about that first? It might help. It certainly led me to see every Christian believer as equal in God's eyes.

And someone just reminded me, those who do accept Mormons as Christians might not believe in mormonism's view of faith plus works either? Ever consider that? Yet they still accept you as a Christian. What would you think of them? Do they staunchly remain in that "abomination" realm to you? Or would you give them special dispensation simply because they believe Mormons are saved regardless of faith alone or faith plus works?

I wasn't trying anything. God already HAS UNITY, in His Son, Jesus Christ. Christians are all ONE in HIM. So where is all this conflict? Do trees have any conflict over their being 50,000 varieties of their species? They are all trees being "trees", yet all are different in their own way--because of God.

 

[tickingclocker]

There are many important events that will happen before the second coming of Christ. It will be helpful for God to have apostles and prophets on the earth to assist where necessary in unfolding of some of these events. The entire earth must recieve the message of the Jesus Christ. That takes a lot of time and money and organization to accomplish a world-wide missionary program. Who better to manage this type of major program than an apostle of Jesus Christ, who can go all over the world and bear a special witness that Jesus lives, and encourage missionaries to keep up the pace for the end is near.

The last days are going to be interesting. We will all be busy helping the Lord.

The Lost don't care now and won't care then what a person's spiritual "title" is, Peter. Especially when they are running for their lives, to only God knows where because there will be no "safe place" except in salvation. Many will fall for those who claim to have "safe places", however, in their terror, being taken advantage of to their eternal peril. We know God warns that these promises will evaporate and become prisons.

Christians will be busy losing their lives, which will look like chaos but it is not. God doesn't need our "help" to manage His planned chaos. Nothing is ever hidden from the Lord's sight, so there is no chaos to Him. Only to us.