LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

Huh? What about "chaos" can be "managed"? Chaos, by its very definition, is purely UNmanagable. Is THIS what the LDS actually believes, or is it just your opinion?? That they are somehow going to "manage" the coming chaos? The only one who believes he will somehow "manage" chaos--to his own benefit, is Satan!

Managed chaos. Oh, my stars. That IS unadulterated pride in a nutshell. I'll take my chances with God's chaos, rather than any level of LDS "order" whatsoever, thanks all the same. Without any hesitation at all. Because scripture promises me when believers see it, there will be a reason for us to stand up and shout for pure JOY. Why would anyone think there will be any need to "manage" that?

Near is the great day of the LORD, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the LORD! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness... (Zeph 1:14-15)

There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, STAND UP AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS, FOR YOUR REDEMPTION IS DRAWING NEAR. (Luke 21:25-36)

Here is the question that you asked: Because scripture promises me when believers see it, (The Lord's chaos) there will be a reason for us to stand up and shout for pure JOY. Why would anyone think there will be any need to "manage" that?

Here is the reason: Your standing up and shouting for pure JOY will be wonderful, but it might last only until you get good and hungry, or hungry and no shelter, or hungry and no shelter, and no medical care, or dry clothing and warmth. I could go on, but I hope you are getting my point. And I am not even talking about spiritual preparedness.

The great and dreadful day of the Lord will be great for those that are watching faithfully and are ready for that day. It does not mean that when that day comes it will be easy even if you are prepared. But it will be much less chaotic for those who are watching the signs of the times and at least partially standing ready.

For those that are not watching and are not preparing physically and spiritually, it will be a dreadful day. Their life will be a nightmare and I will not speak to that.

What the LDS church is doing is preparing their people both spiritually and physically (meaning food, shelter,medicine etc.) so that when chaos comes, our lives will have at least some semblance of normality. We believe God is with us, like he was with Joseph and used Joseph to prepare Egypt for the severe drought. Joseph was able, with the Lord's help and the Lord was able, with Joseph's help to manage that chaos for 7 woeful years. That is the management that I am talking about.
Joseph was able to save Egypt and much of the surrounding world at that time and especially the House of Israel.
The Lord needs good men to help him save his people from the severest reaches of chaos that will happen in the end times, in the same way that Joseph helped Egypt. I'm betting you will help however you can also.

 

[Peter1000]

Only silly to those who don't comprehend. They were all admonished for different reasons. Example to the church at Ephasus, Rev 2:4-5:

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

So, they were still all members of the ONE true church of Jesus Christ, even though in 7 different locations, and with different problems. I comprehend well enough. Tell me what I'm missing here.

 

[Peter1000]

Nope. Not until you answer the first question. Not even a nibble until then.

See post 421.

 

[Peter1000]

What is it about there being ONLY TWO camps of salvation are you failing to understand? Faith alone or faith plus works---is all there is. TWO. There are NO other "plans of salvation". And mormonism came down in one that ALREADY EXISTED when JS claimed God supposedly said Christianity's creeds were an "abomination" to Him... Which was an abomination then? Faith alone? Or faith alone AND faith plus works, Peter? Because there were some Christian churches in existence at that time which believed what mormonism believes about faith plus works..... Because there were "so many salvation plans" as you claimed, when there have always been only these TWO all along.

Maybe you should have thought about that first? It might help. It certainly led me to see every Christian believer as equal in God's eyes.

And someone just reminded me, those who do accept Mormons as Christians might not believe in mormonism's view of faith plus works either? Ever consider that? Yet they still accept you as a Christian. What would you think of them? Do they staunchly remain in that "abomination" realm to you? Or would you give them special dispensation simply because they believe Mormons are saved regardless of faith alone or faith plus works?

I wasn't trying anything. God already HAS UNITY, in His Son, Jesus Christ. Christians are all ONE in HIM. So where is all this conflict? Do trees have any conflict over their being 50,000 varieties of their species? They are all trees being "trees", yet all are different in their own way--because of God.

Have you forgot the Calvinists. They believe that God chooses who will be saved and you don't even know whether you have been chosen or not. It does not matter whether you are good or evil. God chooses and you don't have a say. It is by His good wishes only. This is a 3rd camp. There are more. But what you have to realize is that each camp breaks down into myriad of isms that all have their own rules and doctrines, all supposedly straight out of the bible. It amounts to spiritual chaos.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Tell me what I'm missing here.

The point.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Here is the question that you asked: Because scripture promises me when believers see it, (The Lord's chaos) there will be a reason for us to stand up and shout for pure JOY. Why would anyone think there will be any need to "manage" that?

Here is the reason: Your standing up and shouting for pure JOY will be wonderful, but it might last only until you get good and hungry, or hungry and no shelter, or hungry and no shelter, and no medical care, or dry clothing and warmth. I could go on, but I hope you are getting my point. And I am not even talking about spiritual preparedness.

The great and dreadful day of the Lord will be great for those that are watching faithfully and are ready for that day. It does not mean that when that day comes it will be easy even if you are prepared. But it will be much less chaotic for those who are watching the signs of the times and at least partially standing ready.

For those that are not watching and are not preparing physically and spiritually, it will be a dreadful day. Their life will be a nightmare and I will not speak to that.

What the LDS church is doing is preparing their people both spiritually and physically (meaning food, shelter,medicine etc.) so that when chaos comes, our lives will have at least some semblance of normality. We believe God is with us, like he was with Joseph and used Joseph to prepare Egypt for the severe drought. Joseph was able, with the Lord's help and the Lord was able, with Joseph's help to manage that chaos for 7 woeful years. That is the management that I am talking about.
Joseph was able to save Egypt and much of the surrounding world at that time and especially the House of Israel.
The Lord needs good men to help him save his people from the severest reaches of chaos that will happen in the end times, in the same way that Joseph helped Egypt. I'm betting you will help however you can also.

So you guys are preparing to stay?? I'm prepared to go on that day. Ref. 1 Thes. 4:17. See ya!

 

[Peter1000]

The point.

I'm trying to figure out your point.

 

[Peter1000]

So you guys are preparing to stay?? I'm prepared to go on that day. Ref. 1 Thes. 4:17. See ya!

That will be a great day, and I hope we rise together to meet the Lord.

That will be his second coming, but before that there will be events that will try even the strongest of us as we try to survive the onslaught of satan and his followers. The world will become a crazy place before the 2nd coming, and those that are watching and ready will be better off than those that are not. Similar to the Joseph in Egypt story.

On the day of the 2nd coming, it will end the persecution from satan, we will be raised up to meet him and then Jesus will reign on earth for a 1000 years.

 

[tickingclocker]

Have you forgot the Calvinists. They believe that God chooses who will be saved and you don't even know whether you have been chosen or not. It does not matter whether you are good or evil. God chooses and you don't have a say. It is by His good wishes only. This is a 3rd camp. There are more. But what you have to realize is that each camp breaks down into myriad of isms that all have their own rules and doctrines, all supposedly straight out of the bible. It amounts to spiritual chaos.

Peter.

We all know Calvinists are "faith alone". Even Calvinists know they are "faith alone". What happens later in the "Finer Points" conference room is irrelevant after which of the two camps any "ism" you can name has been established. (The LDS owns one of those conference rooms too, btw.)

Your overreaching still does not answer why JS settled on a salvation plan that already existed within CHRISTIANITY before he claimed God told him we were all "abominations" for believing either "faith alone" and "faith plus works". Why does all of mormonism follow a "Christian abomination creed" point on salvation?

It's ALL by God's plan. Please stop twaddling. It's been a very long day.

 

[Super14LDS]

Peter.

We all know Calvinists are "faith alone". Even Calvinists know they are "faith alone". What happens later in the "Finer Points" conference room is irrelevant after which of the two camps any "ism" you can name has been established. (The LDS owns one of those conference rooms too, btw.)

Your overreaching still does not answer why JS settled on a salvation plan that already existed within CHRISTIANITY before he claimed God told him we were all "abominations" for believing either "faith alone" and "faith plus works". Why does all of mormonism follow a "Christian abomination creed" point on salvation?

It's ALL by God's plan. Please stop twaddling. It's been a very long day.

The creeds were stated as what was the abominations; prime among them the Nicence Triune God concoction.

 

[Peter1000]

Peter.

We all know Calvinists are "faith alone". Even Calvinists know they are "faith alone". What happens later in the "Finer Points" conference room is irrelevant after which of the two camps any "ism" you can name has been established. (The LDS owns one of those conference rooms too, btw.)

Your overreaching still does not answer why JS settled on a salvation plan that already existed within CHRISTIANITY before he claimed God told him we were all "abominations" for believing either "faith alone" and "faith plus works". Why does all of mormonism follow a "Christian abomination creed" point on salvation?

It's ALL by God's plan. Please stop twaddling. It's been a very long day.

The LDS conference room is all of the NT. 1/2 of the NT salvation scriptures would have to be jettisoned in order for "faith only" salvation to be reconciled to the remaining half of the NT.

 

[tickingclocker]

The LDS conference room is all of the NT. 1/2 of the NT salvation scriptures would have to be jettisoned in order for "faith only" salvation to be reconciled to the remaining half of the NT.

Half of mormonism would have to be jettisoned to reconcile it is more nearer the truth. We Christians have easily enjoyed the entire NT all along within both faith camps. Where have you been all this time? Out West somewhere looking for gold?

 

[Peter1000]

Half of mormonism would have to be jettisoned to reconcile it is more nearer the truth. We Christians have easily enjoyed the entire NT all along within both faith camps. Where have you been all this time? Out West somewhere looking for gold?

So you believe both faith camps are the truth about being saved?

 

[tickingclocker]

So you believe both faith camps are the truth about being saved?

Doctrine doesn't save. Salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ, not in doctrines or facts about Him.

 

[Peter1000]

Doctrine doesn't save. Salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ, not in doctrines or facts about Him.

You say that doctrine or ordinances do not save, but what if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved. Would you do it?

 

[mmksparbud]

You say that doctrine or ordinances do not save, but what if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved. Would you do it?

Yes, well, He never did tell the thief on the cross to get down off that cross and go get baptized. And don't even bother with that ridiculous story that he was baptized before he was crucified!! He was in jail, for stealing, there were no bath tubs in Roman prisons.

 

[tickingclocker]

You say that doctrine or ordinances do not save, but what if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved. Would you do it?

That is not the question I asked of you. Please answer the question.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Yes, well, He never did tell the thief on the cross to get down off that cross and go get baptized. And don't even bother with that ridiculous story that he was baptized before he was crucified!! He was in jail, for stealing, there were no bath tubs in Roman prisons.

Nope but Peter with his keys of the Kingdom made sure his baptism was done.

 

[mmksparbud]

Nope but Peter with his keys of the Kingdom made sure his baptism was done.

By all means---state the scripture where it states that Peter did that!!!

 

[withwonderingawe]

You say that doctrine or ordinances do not save, but what if Jesus told you to do A and B in order to be saved. Would you do it?

The story of the rich man and Lazarus comes to mind
Luke 16
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It's in the Bible, baptism etc but they reject it for their own doctrines of men.