LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ViaCrucis]

When Jesus Christ restored the church, he promised JS that there would be inevitable off-shoots. But these off=shoots would never be anything that would be a rival to his church. So in fulfillment of prophecy, that is exactly what has happened.

So you can tell the real restored church by it's size and fruits. In Salt Lake City is the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have given the statistics before, so suffice it to say it is by far, without question, the real church of Jesus Christ.

So remember the prophecy and you will never be confused over that issue again. Thanks for asking.

Just so we're clear: The various sects and offshoots since the ancient Church necessitated a restoration, even though Jesus said the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church. So God used Joseph Smith, Jr. to restore the Church and gave a prophetic promise that it would always be known--even though there have been dozens of offshoots and sects. So in the case of the "restored" church we can know which is the real restored church because (at least in part) it's the largest of the various successor groups to Smith's movement.

Am I in the right ballpark?

So the RLDS/Community of Christ isn't the restored church because it's smaller than the larger LDS body which followed Brigham Young.

But the catholic/orthodox Churches which have claim to direct descent from the Apostles through the succession of bishops aren't the real Church because of all the various schisms and offshoots which broke away and formed their own thing; and even though the catholic/orthodox Churches are the largest and have a direct and unbroken line back to the Apostles, it was still necessary to restore the Church 1,800 years after Christ said, "On this rock I will build My Church and not even the gates of Hades shall prevail against it."

Just curious if you can see where I might be coming from here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Peter1000]

The Lost don't care now and won't care then what a person's spiritual "title" is, Peter. Especially when they are running for their lives, to only God knows where because there will be no "safe place" except in salvation. Many will fall for those who claim to have "safe places", however, in their terror, being taken advantage of to their eternal peril. We know God warns that these promises will evaporate and become prisons.

Christians will be busy losing their lives, which will look like chaos but it is not. God doesn't need our "help" to manage His planned chaos. Nothing is ever hidden from the Lord's sight, so there is no chaos to Him. Only to us.

There will be many important events that will happen before the chaos gets into full swing.

I also believe that if I listen to my apostles and prophets, who are receiving revelation from Jesus Christ, that I will be prepared for the "great and terrible day", when chaos will reign. So that day will be a "great day" for those who are watching and being prepared, instead of a "terrible day", for those who are not watching and are not prepared.

If you would like to know what I am doing to prepare for the "great and terrible day", let me know.

 

[tickingclocker]

There will be many important events that will happen before the chaos gets into full swing.

I also believe that if I listen to my apostles and prophets, who are receiving revelation from Jesus Christ, that I will be prepared for the "great and terrible day", when chaos will reign. So that day will be a "great day" for those who are watching and being prepared, instead of a "terrible day", for those who are not watching and are not prepared.

If you would like to know what I am doing to prepare for the "great and terrible day", let me know.

If you wish to continue to talk about this, start another thread. Don't expect me to join you. I've heard quite enough that is beyond preposterous already about what mormonism believes of the future.

 

[Peter1000]

If you wish to continue to talk about this, start another thread. Don't expect me to join you. I've heard quite enough that is beyond preposterous already about what mormonism believes of the future.

Your loss.

 

[Peter1000]

system error

 

[Peter1000]

Just so we're clear: The various sects and offshoots since the ancient Church necessitated a restoration, even though Jesus said the gates of Hades would not prevail against His Church. So God used Joseph Smith, Jr. to restore the Church and gave a prophetic promise that it would always be known--even though there have been dozens of offshoots and sects. So in the case of the "restored" church we can know which is the real restored church because (at least in part) it's the largest of the various successor groups to Smith's movement.

Am I in the right ballpark?

So the RLDS/Community of Christ isn't the restored church because it's smaller than the larger LDS body which followed Brigham Young.

But the catholic/orthodox Churches which have claim to direct descent from the Apostles through the succession of bishops aren't the real Church because of all the various schisms and offshoots which broke away and formed their own thing; and even though the catholic/orthodox Churches are the largest and have a direct and unbroken line back to the Apostles, it was still necessary to restore the Church 1,800 years after Christ said, "On this rock I will build My Church and not even the gates of Hades shall prevail against it."

Just curious if you can see where I might be coming from here?

Yes, I see where you are coming from.


You can tell the true original church by several factors.


1) size does matter because it is an indication of growth and expansion, but not the most important factor.

2) the original organization has to be the same.

3) The name has to be at least close to the same.

4) the doctrines that are taught have to be the same or at least close. New revelation can be received by current prophets.


When you start adding up the RLDS/Community of Christ vs LDS/Salt Lake City, there is no comparison. There is certainly no rivalry. There is no guessing which one is the original true church.


OTOH by the time that the Orthodox and Catholic churches broke away from each other, there were now highly competing Christian churches. Today in fact the Orthodox claim the Catholic church broke away from them. They both taught similar, but different doctrines, both had similar but different organizations. But they were rivals from the start. Almost the same number of people. etc.


So the question from the brake away was: Which one is the true original church and which one was the false church. it was difficult then, it is even more difficult today to know that question. There cannot be 2 true churches both teaching different doctrines about Jesus.


So you tell me who was the true church, the Catholic or Orthodox? Hint: they can't both be the true church. We will come to the protestant churches later.

 

[tickingclocker]

Your loss.

You never answered my questions, so why should I address anything you have to say? Fair is only fair.

 

[Peter1000]

You never answered my questions, so why should I address anything you have to say? Fair is only fair.

That's fair, but tell me which post you asked a question, and I will be happy to respond. As I read your posts, it seemed like you were just kind of blasting away, so if there was a question I missed, let me know. Thanks.

 

[tickingclocker]

That's fair, but tell me which post you asked a question, and I will be happy to respond. As I read your posts, it seemed like you were just kind of blasting away, so if there was a question I missed, let me know. Thanks.

Go back and read the question, because you do know which post it was. Stop being coy, because it doesn't fly here.

Why is a direct question. If you prefer to consider pointed questions as blasting away, that is entirely up to you. I take it if I'd asked you why should I sign up for the missionary classes, you would have certainly answered that why "knowing it was a question".

 

[Super14LDS]

Go back and read the question, because you do know which post it was. Stop being coy, because it doesn't fly here.

Why is a direct question. If you prefer to consider pointed questions as blasting away, that is entirely up to you. I take it if I'd asked you why should I sign up for the missionary classes, you would have certainly answered that why "knowing it was a question".

WWJD?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So you tell me who was the true church, the Catholic or Orthodox? Hint: they can't both be the true church.

On the contrary, they can. The Great Schism was a mutual schism--neither has more claim to being the Church than the other in my estimation; both have equal claims to antiquity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jane_Doe]

On the contrary, they can. The Great Schism was a mutual schism--neither has more claim to being the Church than the other in my estimation; both have equal claims to antiquity.

-CryptoLutheran

Except they disagree on doctrine, so which is the correct docterine? And note: I don't care how 'minor' the difference is, difference is difference

 

[tickingclocker]

On the contrary, they can. The Great Schism was a mutual schism--neither has more claim to being the Church than the other in my estimation; both have equal claims to antiquity.

-CryptoLutheran

Mormons believe doctrine saves. They refuse to accept that its Jesus Christ who saves. That is why all of mormonism stands upon JS's doctrinal positions instead of Jesus Christ for salvation. Jesus is more of a helper "to" salvation than a Savior.

They don't (or refuse to) understand that doctrine has never been the Christian's Savior and Lord. Jesus Christ is. It's a foreign concept to them all. When I finally came to realize that after I left the mormon church, everything fell into place within Christianity. It's not doctrine that saves! It's Jesus!

They will now tell you that they do not believe doctrinal positions save. Just watch them try. If it weren't for JS gulling them into believing that Christianity had "hundreds of salvation plans", when it historically has had only two (faith alone vs. faith plus works), mormonism would have died long ago. Because every single mormon branch believes in one of those "abomination" plans, of faith plus works. Apparently they, too, are "abominations".

Who knew?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Except they disagree on doctrine, so which is the correct docterine? And note: I don't care how 'minor' the difference is, difference is difference

Let's recount an ancient episode recounted by Eusebius in his Church History, from Book V, chapters 23 and 24,

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour.

Synods and assemblies of bishops were held on this account, and all, with one consent, through mutual correspondence drew up an ecclesiastical decree, that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be celebrated on no other but the Lord's day, and that we should observe the close of the paschal fast on this day only. There is still extant a writing of those who were then assembled in Palestine, over whom Theophilus, bishop of Cæsarea, and Narcissus, bishop of Jerusalem, presided. And there is also another writing extant of those who were assembled at Rome to consider the same question, which bears the name of Bishop Victor; also of the bishops in Pontus over whom Palmas, as the oldest, presided; and of the parishes in Gaul of which Irenæus was bishop, and of those in Osrhoëne and the cities there; and a personal letter of Bacchylus, bishop of the church at Corinth, and of a great many others, who uttered the same opinion and judgment, and cast the same vote.

And that which has been given above was their unanimous decision.

But the bishops of Asia, led by Polycrates, decided to hold to the old custom handed down to them. He himself, in a letter which he addressed to Victor and the church of Rome, set forth in the following words the tradition which had come down to him:

We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord's coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate.

...

Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicate.

But this did not please all the bishops. And they besought him to consider the things of peace, and of neighborly unity and love. Words of theirs are extant, sharply rebuking Victor.

Among them was Irenæus, who, sending letters in the name of the brethren in Gaul over whom he presided, maintained that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be observed only on the Lord's day. He fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom and after many other words he proceeds as follows:

For the controversy is not only concerning the day, but also concerning the very manner of the fast. For some think that they should fast one day, others two, yet others more; some, moreover, count their day as consisting of forty hours day and night.

And this variety in its observance has not originated in our time; but long before in that of our ancestors. It is likely that they did not hold to strict accuracy, and thus formed a custom for their posterity according to their own simplicity and peculiar mode. Yet all of these lived none the less in peace, and we also live in peace with one another; and the disagreement in regard to the fast confirms the agreement in the faith.

He adds to this the following account, which I may properly insert:

Among these were the presbyters before Soter, who presided over the church which you now rule. We mean Anicetus, and Pius, and Hyginus, and Telesphorus, and Xystus. They neither observed it themselves, nor did they permit those after them to do so. And yet though not observing it, they were none the less at peace with those who came to them from the parishes in which it was observed; although this observance was more opposed to those who did not observe it.

But none were ever cast out on account of this form; but the presbyters before you who did not observe it, sent the eucharist to those of other parishes who observed it.

And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome in the time of Anicetus, and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.

But though matters were in this shape, they communed together, and Anicetus conceded the administration of the eucharist in the church to Polycarp, manifestly as a mark of respect. And they parted from each other in peace, both those who observed, and those who did not, maintaining the peace of the whole church."

Differences between the Western and Asian Churches very nearly resulted in a break, but men like Irenaeus intervened, and later the meeting between Anicetus and Polycarp, while they were unable to resolve their differences, maintained that there should be peace and unity.

So which was the true Church, the Western or Asian? The answer is both. Which is still my answer to your question concerning the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and will be my answer in regard to the Lutheran, Anglican, and other bodies of the Reformation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigDaddy4]

Except they disagree on doctrine, so which is the correct docterine? And note: I don't care how 'minor' the difference is, difference is difference

The 7 churches in Revelation Chapters 1-3 disproves the fallacy of the lds church that there has to be "one true church" and that there can't be 'minor' differences between various churches.

 

[Rescued One]

When Jesus Christ restored the church, he promised JS that there would be inevitable off-shoots. But these off=shoots would never be anything that would be a rival to his church. So in fulfillment of prophecy, that is exactly what has happened.

Can you tell us where this prophecy is?

So you can tell the real restored church by it's size and fruits.

A large size doesn't make a church true.

In Salt Lake City is the headquarters of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have given the statistics before, so suffice it to say it is by far, without question, the real church of Jesus Christ.

So remember the prophecy and you will never be confused over that issue again. Thanks for asking.

This prophecy?

There [has been] some indication by some … that unless this Church grew and “progressed” with the present age, so to speak, like other churches, it would be doomed to failure. Any Latter-day Saint that thinks for one minute that this Church is going to fail is not a really converted Latter-day Saint. There will be no failure in this Church. It has been established for the last time, never to be given to another people and never to be thrown down.15
(15. Gospel Standards, 87)
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-heber-j-grant/chapter-23?lang=eng

The Church of Jesus Christ Will Never Again Be Taken from the Earth
Now that the true Church of Jesus Christ, priesthood authority, and gospel have been restored to the earth, they will never be taken from the earth again. Our Father in Heaven said that He would set up a kingdom that would never be destroyed. This kingdom is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It will continue forever.
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-17-the-church-of-jesus-christ-today?lang=eng

 

[Peter1000]

The 7 churches in Revelation Chapters 1-3 disproves the fallacy of the lds church that there has to be "one true church" and that there can't be 'minor' differences between various churches.

Silly statement. These 7 churches belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. So even though there was 7 different locations, they all belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. Not sure where you were going with that?

 

[Peter1000]

Silly statement. These 7 churches belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. So even though there was 7 different locations, they all belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. Not sure where you were going with that?

Mormons believe doctrine saves. They refuse to accept that its Jesus Christ who saves. That is why all of mormonism stands upon JS's doctrinal positions instead of Jesus Christ for salvation. Jesus is more of a helper "to" salvation than a Savior.

They don't (or refuse to) understand that doctrine has never been the Christian's Savior and Lord. Jesus Christ is. It's a foreign concept to them all. When I finally came to realize that after I left the mormon church, everything fell into place within Christianity. It's not doctrine that saves! It's Jesus!

They will now tell you that they do not believe doctrinal positions save. Just watch them try. If it weren't for JS gulling them into believing that Christianity had "hundreds of salvation plans", when it historically has had only two (faith alone vs. faith plus works), mormonism would have died long ago. Because every single mormon branch believes in one of those "abomination" plans, of faith plus works. Apparently they, too, are "abominations".

Who knew?

If Jesus commanded you to do something, would you do it?

One of Jesus's last words to his apostles was a command: go preach the gospel to the whole world and baptize everyone in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS.

This command includes both the doctrine of baptism, and the ordinance of baptism.

If you had been an apostle at that time, what would you have done:
1) obeyed Jesus and go preaching and baptizing?

OR

2) argue with yourself that since baptism does not save, it doesn't need to be done, so I will just cancel that part of the command, but I will go out and preach?

Tell me which one you could choose, 1 or 2? BTW I am researching your posts to answer your why question. I will answer it.

 

[tickingclocker]

If Jesus commanded you to do something, would you do it?

One of Jesus's last words to his apostles was a command: go preach the gospel to the whole world and baptize everyone in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the HS.

This command includes both the doctrine of baptism, and the ordinance of baptism.

If you had been an apostle at that time, what would you have done:
1) obeyed Jesus and go preaching and baptizing?

OR

2) argue with yourself that since baptism does not save, it doesn't need to be done, so I will just cancel that part of the command, but I will go out and preach?

Tell me which one you could choose, 1 or 2? BTW I am researching your posts to answer your why question. I will answer it.

Nope. Not until you answer the first question. Not even a nibble until then.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Silly statement. These 7 churches belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. So even though there was 7 different locations, they all belonged to the "one" true church of Jesus Christ. Not sure where you were going with that?

Only silly to those who don't comprehend. They were all admonished for different reasons. Example to the church at Ephasus, Rev 2:4-5:

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.