• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That doesn't prove anything. There are thousands of people claiming to have seen God, or heaven, come back from the dead, talked with the Virgin Mary, been transported to other worlds, etc. etc. Such claims are just that--claims.

Well the Lord warned us of false prophets but he also told us by their fruits you will know them. Br Scott is one man you can trust he does not stand alone but has 12 other men of God witnessing with him.

This is from a talk of his in Nov 2006 but first let be quote;
Heb 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The Laws of God which must be obeyed are found in Matt 5 as Jesus expands the meaning of righteousness.
" For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

You can not commit adultery ask for forgiveness and then commit adultery the next day and expect the Lord to forgive you again. That's the one of the points Scott is making.

Br Scott
".....Peace and happiness are the precious fruits of a righteous life. They are only possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I will explain.

Each of us makes mistakes in life. They result in broken eternal laws. Justice is that part of Father in Heaven’s plan of happiness that maintains order. It is like gravity to a rock climber, ever present. It is a friend if eternal laws are observed. It responds to your detriment if they are ignored. Justice guarantees that you will receive the blessings you earn for obeying the laws of God. Justice also requires that every broken law be satisfied. When you obey the laws of God, you are blessed, but there is no additional credit earned that can be saved to satisfy the laws that you break. If not resolved, broken laws can cause your life to be miserable and would keep you from returning to God. Only the life, teachings, and particularly the Atonement of Jesus Christ can release you from this otherwise impossible predicament.

The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life. The Redeemer can settle your individual account with justice and grant forgiveness through the merciful path of your repentance. Through the Atonement you can live in a world where justice assures that you will retain what you earn by obedience. Through His mercy you can resolve the consequences of broken laws.

The Atonement was a selfless act of infinite, eternal consequence, arduously earned alone, by the Son of God. Through it the Savior broke the bonds of death. It justifies our finally being judged by the Redeemer. It can prevent an eternity under the dominion of Satan. It opens the gates to exaltation for all who qualify for forgiveness through repentance and obedience.

Pondering the grandeur of the Atonement evokes the most profound feelings of awe, immense gratitude, and deep humility. Those impressions can provide you powerful motivation to keep His commandments and consistently repent of errors for greater peace and happiness.

I believe that no matter how diligently you try, you cannot with your human mind fully comprehend the eternal significance of the Atonement nor fully understand how it was accomplished. We can only appreciate in the smallest measure what it cost the Savior in pain, anguish, and suffering or how difficult it was for our Father in Heaven to see His Son experience the incomparable challenge of His Atonement. Even so, you should conscientiously study the Atonement to understand it as well as you can. You can learn what is needful to live His commandments, to enjoy peace and happiness in mortal life. You can qualify, with obedient family members, to live with Him and your Father in Heaven forever.

Lehi taught his son Jacob, “No flesh … can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.”

Jesus Christ possessed merits that no other being could possibly have. He was a God, Jehovah, before His birth in Bethlehem. His beloved Father not only gave Him His spirit body, but Jesus was His Only Begotten Son in the flesh. Our Master lived a perfect, sinless life and therefore was free from the demands of justice. He is perfect in every attribute, including love, compassion, patience, obedience, forgiveness, and humility. His mercy pays our debt to justice when we repent and obey Him. Since with even our best efforts to obey His teachings we will still fall short, because of His grace we will be “saved, after all we can do.”

I testify that with unimaginable suffering and agony at an incalculable price, the Savior earned His right to be our Redeemer, our Intermediary, our Final Judge. I know that He lives and that He loves you. Consistently make Him your “lead” in life. The secure anchors of His laws will assure safety and success as you scale the challenges you will face. You will not fall into serious transgression. Yours will be a life of peace and happiness crowned with exaltation in the celestial kingdom. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen."
www.lds.org/ensign/2006/11/the-atonement-can-secure-your-peace-and-happiness.p1?lang=eng
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
I think you are trying to make something which isn't there.

This is what the Book of Mormon teaches, can you find something in there which is not biblical?
2 Nephi 11
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.

Without Christ we are nothing, we can not save ourselves in any matter at all,

Alma 22, can you find something in here which is un-biblical
13 And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name.

"14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth (baptism); and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest."

Where we differ is how Jesus implements his grace. You seem to want to say it just happens, you confess Jesus and suddenly you are saved.

We believe God makes a covenant with us and that covenant is brought about through the blessing of baptism.
Act 2
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for there mission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you not believe Peter or is this passage not in your Bible? It is in mine, how do you explain it away?

Is there anything in this next passage which contradicts the Bible?
2Nephi 31:17
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Paul said the same thing in Philp 3
"9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded...."

There is a danger when we start to think that we have already achieved "the prize" and stop reaching for the mark.

I think there must be a great deal of pride in those who proclaim there own salvation.

John 5:26-27
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

You do not have the right to declare yourself saved only Jesus can do that.



If it is in the bible, why on earth would you have to have it written down again is someone else's words and declare it to be holy scripture, too??? Why not just read the same thing in the bible itself?? And if it is different than what the bible says, then it is not of God.


You have declared there are other gods on other worlds and God says there is no other god. The commandment states you shall have no other gods, but you do---and stand in violation of that commandment.

Isa_44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Mar_7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If it is in the bible, why on earth would you have to have it written down again is someone else's words and declare it to be holy scripture, too??? Why not just read the same thing in the bible itself?? And if it is different than what the bible says, then it is not of God.


You have declared there are other gods on other worlds and God says there is no other god. The commandment states you shall have no other gods, but you do---and stand in violation of that commandment.

Isa_44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Mar_7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
If God has dealings with other people and reveals his word to them as he did with those in the bible why wouldn't it be important as well? Surely you don't believe that God is a partial God.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Please explain the "dispensation of the fullness of times" and the "restitution of all things" as cited below:

Peter prophesied: “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution [restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:20-21).
The restitution of all things will not be accomplished until after the end of the age, following the return of Christ. It does not refer to some mythical miscarrying of the Church that Christ established and about which he promised that the very gates of hell would not prevail against it.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Many denominations don't even believe in baptism by immersion so completely misunderstand what it symbolizes.
Yes, but the issue is how we come to be saved; and there really are only two views of that matter which have any appreciable following among all the denominations that exist--Faith + Works or Faith Alone. Within each, there are little variations, such as whether Baptism remits sin or not, but they nevertheless still fall within the larger framework of one or the other of these two.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well the Lord warned us of false prophets but he also told us by their fruits you will know them. Br Scott is one man you can trust he does not stand alone but has 12 other men of God witnessing with him.
So have many other people in history who were sincerely convinced that they'd been visited by God or spoken to the Virgin, etc.

Their sincerity and character doesn't make them immune to false perceptions, even though we're less readily inclined to dismiss the reports given by such people than we are of other people for whom we have strong evidence of dementia or hallucinations or, for example, being habitual liars.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tickingclocker

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2016
2,355
978
US
✟29,521.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You do not have the right to declare yourself saved only Jesus can do that.
The subject is, did JS lie when he claimed God told him that "all Christian creeds were an abomination", because "there were hundreds of ways for salvation" as one Mormon put it? Considering there have been only two basic "salvation" camps known since the days of the early Church (Jesus alone or Jesus PLUS works), how could JS have claimed God was so angry with Christianity, especially when mormonism itself is in one of those very camps?

To take the point further, why would God say such a thing when Christians have never worshiped doctrinal positions or creedal statements, nor do we depend upon either for salvation? Jesus Christ is our Savior and Lord, not doctrine or creeds.

To take the point ever deeper still, did JS mistakenly assume Christians believe doctrine or creeds save? Was he trying to say that God mistakenly assumed that Christians believe doctrine or creeds save, too, when we never have? Was he confused by/at that point that he thought tossing out everything and starting afresh would somehow cut through his confusion? Was he so overwhelmed by trying to sort it all out, when all he needed to embrace was that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Savior and Lord? So why would God have said such a thing, when JS's entire statement is so utterly baseless?

Doctrine is not the Christian's Savior and Lord. Creedal statements are not the Christian's Savior and Lord. Jesus Christ is the ONLY Savior and Lord. Even mormonism believes that to a point! So, what truly was behind JS’s announcement that “God told him all Christian creeds are an abomination”, in light of these answers?

An additional question I brought up was, if JS was so confounded over “so many salvation plans” in existence within Christianity, why did he join one of those two existing camps, then add non-biblical requirements previously unknown within all Judaism or Christianity?

Please remain on subject. The subject is not salvation itself. Thank you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rescued One
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
If God has dealings with other people and reveals his word to them as he did with those in the bible why wouldn't it be important as well? Surely you don't believe that God is a partial God.


Yes, He's partial to those who follow Him, He's partial to His chosen prophets, He's partial to His Son and He upholds His word. He has kept it intact, the gates of hell have not prevailed against it.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If it is in the bible, why on earth would you have to have it written down again is someone else's words and declare it to be holy scripture, too??? Why not just read the same thing in the bible itself?? And if it is different than what the bible says, then it is not of God.

So you didn't find any thing in there un-Biblical?

Does God not love all of his children? It is called The Second Witness and answers the prophecy of Eze 37:15-20

Isa_44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know notany.
9 ¶They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

Yes those graven images are not god and never will be.

But Ps 136
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
So you didn't find any thing in there un-Biblical?

Does God not love all of his children? It is called The Second Witness and answers the prophecy of Eze 37:15-20



8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know notany.
9 ¶They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?

Yes those graven images are not god and never will be.

But Ps 136
2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
3 O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.


No other god anywhere--not any--not in this world, nor any other!!

Eze 37:15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.


See no correlation to what is being discussed.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
36,184
6,771
Midwest
✟128,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
So you didn't find any thing in there un-Biblical?

Does God not love all of his children?

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, He's partial to those who follow Him, He's partial to His chosen prophets, He's partial to His Son and He upholds His word. He has kept it intact, the gates of hell have not prevailed against it.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Does God love all his. Children the same
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
If God has dealings with other people and reveals his word to them as he did with those in the bible why wouldn't it be important as well? Surely you don't believe that God is a partial God.



You asked if He is partial---I answered that---Love---that is different. He even loves Satan, for He remembers Him as Lucifer--- but He hates the evil in Him. He hates sin. He died for all sinners, and loves them, but hates the sin. The blood of Jesus covers the sinner that accepts Him and He doesn't see the sin.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What was lost to apostasy

1, The priesthood, most of today’s “Christians” deny there is such a thing even though John wrote;

Rev 1
“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, ….hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

And Peter admonished;

1Peter 2
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ….But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:… but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Jesus built his Church with a “..foundation of the apostles and prophets” who were suppose to keep the church from being “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine”. But those apostles and their priesthood authority were eventually ejected by many and finally martyred.

2, The knowledge of a true and living God and Father in whose image we are created.

Within a few short years God the Father became an incomprehensible and immaterial invisible substance without body parts or passions. A being that was no longer a loving Heavenly Father but an “it”. God became a fearsome god who was used to frighten the sinner into obedience. Jesus became some sort of indescribable extension of this substance and the true Father and Son relationship was lost.

Jesus taught that God was his Father and our Father his God and our God.

3, With the loss of God’s true identity as the living God and “the Father of Spirits” mankind lost their own identity as children of God. Christianity began to teach that we were nothing more than a filthy rag which only come into being on the day of conception. They lost the knowledge that Jesus is our brother and loves us as his brothers and sisters. They lost the concept of the family of heaven and earth, Ephesians 3:15 and ignored Paul teachings that we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29

4, With that loss of identity also came a lost of what our potential is, to be
“joint-heirs with Christ” and “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.“ the notion of what it means for us to be one with Jesus and the Father and what “And they shall see his face; ….for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” all means is gone. Rom &, Rev 2 & 22.

5, For some Christians a complete understanding of the resurrection has been lost because they don’t see God as having a body but as some kind of substance.

The idea that he will;
“…change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,” is no longer part of their doctrine.

And lastly 6, A complete understanding of the atonement was lost. The concept of the fall and the reasons for it has been misunderstood as if it were some kind of mistake instead of part of God’s plan to make us in his image. Since that element is missing the atonement’s full nature of why and how is not understood.

The idea that Jesus paid for our sins has been the true and central theme of Christianity but how that is applied has been lost. With no priesthood authority to baptize the necessity of it has been lost. The concept of binding covenants has been lost.

The Evangelical world has focus on one passage from Eph 2

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

while ignoring “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone”

and the rest of the Bible which teaches

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”

Even Jesus was obedient to his Father, somehow trying to be obedient to God has been equated with works which is a false idea.

Perhaps my Mormon friends here can think of a few more.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,820
74
Las Vegas
✟263,478.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
What was lost to apostasy

1, The priesthood, most of today’s “Christians” deny there is such a thing even though John wrote;

Rev 1
“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, ….hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

And Peter admonished;

1Peter 2
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ….But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:… but as the servants of God. Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Jesus built his Church with a “..foundation of the apostles and prophets” who were suppose to keep the church from being “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine”. But those apostles and their priesthood authority were eventually ejected by many and finally martyred.

2, The knowledge of a true and living God and Father in whose image we are created.

Within a few short years God the Father became an incomprehensible and immaterial invisible substance without body parts or passions. A being that was no longer a loving Heavenly Father but an “it”. God became a fearsome god who was used to frighten the sinner into obedience. Jesus became some sort of indescribable extension of this substance and the true Father and Son relationship was lost.

Jesus taught that God was his Father and our Father his God and our God.

3, With the loss of God’s true identity as the living God and “the Father of Spirits” mankind lost their own identity as children of God. Christianity began to teach that we were nothing more than a filthy rag which only come into being on the day of conception. They lost the knowledge that Jesus is our brother and loves us as his brothers and sisters. They lost the concept of the family of heaven and earth, Ephesians 3:15 and ignored Paul teachings that we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29

4, With that loss of identity also came a lost of what our potential is, to be
“joint-heirs with Christ” and “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.“ the notion of what it means for us to be one with Jesus and the Father and what “And they shall see his face; ….for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” all means is gone. Rom &, Rev 2 & 22.

5, For some Christians a complete understanding of the resurrection has been lost because they don’t see God as having a body but as some kind of substance.

The idea that he will;
“…change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,” is no longer part of their doctrine.

And lastly 6, A complete understanding of the atonement was lost. The concept of the fall and the reasons for it has been misunderstood as if it were some kind of mistake instead of part of God’s plan to make us in his image. Since that element is missing the atonement’s full nature of why and how is not understood.

The idea that Jesus paid for our sins has been the true and central theme of Christianity but how that is applied has been lost. With no priesthood authority to baptize the necessity of it has been lost. The concept of binding covenants has been lost.

The Evangelical world has focus on one passage from Eph 2

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

while ignoring “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone”

and the rest of the Bible which teaches

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”

Even Jesus was obedient to his Father, somehow trying to be obedient to God has been equated with works which is a false idea.

Perhaps my Mormon friends here can think of a few more.



You have to write a book every time??

All these verses clearly state we ALL are kings and priests. Why do you single out just the priests? Do you have kings in your church also?? Says nothing here about a special, separate priesthood.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

And why do you just take out words from a chapter in the bible and lump them all together as though that is the way it is written???

It is the same knowledge today of God as was in the time of Jesus and that He Himself worshipped.

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

It is extremely foolish to try to figure out what God is made of---He has not declared it. We are a likeness, an image, of the original, not the same as the original. That has been shown you over and over it is you who refuse to acknowledge the greatness of God and must bring Him down to a human likeness for the sole purpose of making yourselves gods. We are not His physical children, we are adopted ---Jesus is his one and only True Son, there is no other, not in this world nor any other. And God is the God of this universe, not just of this world He is the one and only God anywhere. It is JS that apostatized and diminished this One and Only Great God into just the god of this world and there are others on other worlds, again for the sole purpose of wanting to be god--just as Satan and those who want what he wants will end up where he is going.
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.


Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

This is not poetic language being used:

Rom_8:15 For ye have not received the s
pirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom_8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Rom_3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is quoting the OT---the same OT that Jesus read and preached. Nothing was lost, nothing was changed. What was done away with was the priesthood, as it was no longer needed that is why the veil between the Holy and the Most Holy was rent by the hand of God. We are now under the New Covenant predicted in the OT with Jesus as our High Priest.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Psa_14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa_53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses--this is not a birthright. Jesus became human and is therefore also our brother. Before that He was our creator. What Mormonism does is elevate man, and diminish God that we can then think we will be gods. That is not a Godly wish but a Satanic one.
What it means to be given eternal life has been rejected by JS and in it's place levels of salvation are given. Totally false doctrine. There is one salvation, and all who are saved are one with God and Jesus on that same new made earth with the New Jerusalem that God has made, not man in Missouri. To change the gifts of God into some man made concept of what we are being given is to call upon the curse that Christ spoke at the end of Rev.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
72
Salem Ut
✟184,049.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


*23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The word 'a' does not belong there and many good translations leave it out. They passages assumes the worshipers of also have a spirit and with their spirit they must worship God. You worship God are you spirit only, no of course not and neither is God.

Continuing to quote that passage to imply that God id only "a spirit" is unjustified.

*In Numbers the word 'man' is not adam but ish which is an unexpressed comparison word. It is used to compare one type of man to another or a man instead of a woman; a tall man to a short man. Noah was a just man/ish compared to the rest of men who were not. 'son of man' is ben Adam and the idiom means a mortal man who sins. Anyone who spoke Hebrew at the time this was written would understand the intent.

It is to be understood as; God is not a man that lies like other men, neither is he a mortal son of Adam who needs to repent.

The passage always assumes God is a man. Now that you know this you can stop using it to support the false doctrine that God is not a man.

*Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.(which of course means he can be seen)
vs.
Ex 24
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

And this one Judge 13
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman ....Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day. And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am....
And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

....So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on. For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground..
But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God. But his wife said unto him, If the Lord were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands,

My my he's enough of a man that he sat and had a barque.

Job 19
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Matt 5
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Matt 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Do I need to go on?
 
Upvote 0

tickingclocker

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2016
2,355
978
US
✟29,521.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I did in posting 5 & 6
No, you merely "proved" it to yourself alone. Reinforcing Mormon beliefs using Mormon arguments is not considered actual proof to everyone else. It's simply repeating what you have learned in mormonism back to yourselves through cyclical persuasion. Have the courage to ask the non-Mormons in this forum if you have proven an "apostasy" took place within Christianity at any time since Jesus proclaimed the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church. They will tell you, every single one of us... Not so far, despite all these many words being bandied about. We believe Jesus Christ. Because HE alone firmly remains our Savior and Lord. No one else.

Have you ever considered, by mormonism's reckoning, it, too, was included in this "apostacy", if Mormons believe the original Church was involved in this fabricated "conspiracy theory", too? By mormonism's own definition, it cannot remain immune. So, how can we believe one man, JS---who sided with one existing camp (faith + works) already in existence within the same Christianity he proclaimed God has damned, that mormonism isn't "just as corrupt" as well? We can clearly see its corruption from where we have---always---stood. You do realize, that Christianity could declare that faith alone was the "re-establishment of the original Church", too, when Martin Luther "restored" it to the Church, don't you? But we don't. Why? We have no need to, because we all know there never has been any such "apostasy".

I have to sit back in amazement and wonder just where and how JS came up with this dual menagerie of "apostasy" and "abomination" pronouncements of his? Just wait. We ain't seen nuthin' yet when it comes to "apostasy" or "abominations" in this world of ours. Mormonism's little "apostasy" tale is going to look like empty peanut hulls compared to what is coming.
 
Upvote 0