LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[withwonderingawe]

It is extremely foolish to try to figure out what God is made of---He has not declared it.

When I see the way you post some of these passages I feel like you never thought it through, it's just always was this way so lets turn off our brains.

If there was an apostasy and Greek metaphysics was added to the intent of the Bible then one has to assume that the way the scriptures have been understood or interpreted is wrong. It behooves all of us to stop and take another look and then to kneel down and ask God guidance.

*First point God is not invisible or un-see-able but unseen.
"The word “invisible in Colossians 1:15 does not mean that God fails to reflect or emanate light in the visible range. It is translated from the Greek word aoratos, meaning “unseen”. Man is not privileged to see God the Father (John 6:46). Rather, Christ is His visible type” (Hopkins, Biblical Mormonism pg 39, ft 35)

let's look at John 6:46
"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father"

Enos walked with God! and Jesus promised "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God"

So how do we think this through
Phi 3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,

1Cor 15
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When Christ came out of the tomb he had a resurrected body of flesh, bone and his quickened spirit, that is the image of the heavenly.

Heb 1
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,... sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Barclay says the idiom of 'express image' means like a stamp which leaves an image in the wax. Jesus was not the stamp but he looks like the stamp. He sat down next to His Father. Stephen a man of God saw him standing next to the Father!

I have to assume that God the Father has a perfect and glorified immortal body of flesh, bone and quickened spirit just as his Son does and as we will too.

 

[tickingclocker]

We have proved it to you from the bible with many scriptures that testify of the apostasy. You again do not believe. So read again post #5 and #6 and you will have the opportunity to learn again.

I can only believe the truth, because I have committed to learning truth AS IT IS, and not as I would like it to be. I learned that lesson very well over the past many years, and fully embrace it now as the precious jewel it always was. I cannot fall for the twisting of holy scriptures any longer, nor the fabricated lies mormonism insists on standing behind simply because a group of men have something to lose.

I now learn the truth through the Holy Spirit. Not through any man. They have agendas of their own that serve them. Never God's.

 

[fatboys]

I can only believe the truth, because I have committed to learning truth AS IT IS, and not as I would like it to be. I learned that lesson very well over the past many years, and fully embrace it now as the precious jewel it always was. I cannot fall for the twisting of holy scriptures any longer, nor the fabricated lies mormonism insists on standing behind simply because a group of men have something to lose.

I now learn the truth through the Holy Spirit. Not through any man. They have agendas of their own that serve them. Never God's.

How do you know your not the twisting the scriptures? You want me to beleive the way you understand them but I feel they mean something different. You think your right and I know I am because I have prayed about it and God has told me by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true.

 

[Rescued One]

If an apostasy destroyed the Church, Christ was a liar.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19

This has not happened:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2

Mormonism teaches that a universal (complete) apostasy occurred after the earthly ministry of Jesus, but that never happened.

 

[withwonderingawe]

It's simply repeating what you have learned in mormonism back to yourselves through cyclical persuasion

No I asked questions, I bought a Stong's concordance, I sat down with the Bible and went through it almost word for word. I went to crosswalk.com and read though commentaries, I bought William Barclay's New Testament and I look at his Bible study. I then look at Mormon Scholars and read their articles and I compare. I also pray and ponder to know the truth, the Holy Spirit guides me each day as I do my scripture reading.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Have you ever considered, by mormonism's reckoning, it, too, was included in this "apostacy", if Mormons believe the original Church was involved in this fabricated "conspiracy theory", too? By mormonism's own definition, it cannot remain immune. So, how can we believe one man, JS---who sided with one existing camp (faith + works) already in existence within the same Christianity he proclaimed God has damned,

That's why God the Father and Jesus appeared to Joseph, to set him on the right path.

 

[Rescued One]

That's why God the Father and Jesus appeared to Joseph, to set him on the right path.

If Joseph Smith had had the Holy Spirit, he could have been on the right path already.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Proverba 3:6
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If Joseph Smith had had the Holy Spirit, he could have been on the right path already.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Proverba 3:6
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

???

 

[Peter1000]

If Joseph Smith had had the Holy Spirit, he could have been on the right path already.

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Proverba 3:6
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

There are not that many men in the world that have given their life for the testimony of Jesus Christ. JS is one of them.

 

[Peter1000]

No I asked questions, I bought a Stong's concordance, I sat down with the Bible and went through it almost word for word. I went to crosswalk.com and read though commentaries, I bought William Barclay's New Testament and I look at his Bible study. I then look at Mormon Scholars and read their articles and I compare. I also pray and ponder to know the truth, the Holy Spirit guides me each day as I do my scripture reading.

Thank you for your knowledge of these important doctrines, and of your testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[withwonderingawe]

There are not that many men in the world that have given their life for the testimony of Jesus Christ. JS is one of them.

And so did his Brother Hyrum, two good men were martyred that day. Lucy actually lost three sons that day. Samuel Smith was the closest to Carthage and rode his horse like crazy over to the jail, he was first to find his brother's bodies. He was shot at several times and as he bent over the top of the saddle horn it apparently damaged his insides. "...he told his mother that he had suffered “a dreadful distress in my side ever since I was chased by the mob, and I think I have received some injury which is going to make me sick.” He died a month later.

 

[Peter1000]

If an apostasy destroyed the Church, Christ was a liar.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19

This has not happened:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Thessalonians 2

Mormonism teaches that a universal (complete) apostasy occurred after the earthly ministry of Jesus, but that never happened.

Do you really believe that Satan will actually sit in the temple of God and shew himself that he is God?

Do you agree that Paul is saying that Jesus will not be coming a second time, except there be a falling away first?

When do you think the "falling away" will take place?

 

[Peter1000]

John 8:44
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Are you directing these scriptures at Mormons? Nice of you to think of us so highly.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you really believe that Satan will actually sit in the temple of God and shew himself that he is God?

Do you agree that Paul is saying that Jesus will not be coming a second time, except there be a falling away first?

When do you think the "falling away" will take place?

There has been apostasy since the beginning. The Church won't become apostate, or else Christ's words are false. But that there are many who fall away from the faith of the Church is evident throughout history. There has never been a shortage of heretics, self-proclaimed prophets, self-appointed apostles, and false teachers leading others away from the faith to heresy. But the Church, through all of this, stands true upon the firm foundation of her Lord who has said "not even the gates of Hades shall overcome it".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tickingclocker]

How do you know your not the twisting the scriptures? You want me to beleive the way you understand them but I feel they mean something different. You think your right and I know I am because I have prayed about it and God has told me by the power of the Holy Ghost that it is true.

I'm not twisting anything. Ask any Christian if I am. Don't just depend upon my word. They are not my words, actually. I wish mormonism would embrace God's Words. Never mine, because only His are divine.

I don't 'think' I am right. I know the Holy Spirit is always right. If you cannot accept that, there is nothing I can do about it. Therefore, we seem to have arrived at the same tired, old stalemate whenever mormonism gets compared with Christianity. Haven't we? Yet not one Mormon has answered the question so far of---why did JS join up with an existing belief of "faith plus works" that was already a part of ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, if Christianity was so "abominable and apostatized to God"?

I'm seeing other avenues of thought popping up, but strangely not the one spot-on-subject?

 

[tickingclocker]

No I asked questions, I bought a Stong's concordance, I sat down with the Bible and went through it almost word for word. I went to crosswalk.com and read though commentaries, I bought William Barclay's New Testament and I look at his Bible study. I then look at Mormon Scholars and read their articles and I compare. I also pray and ponder to know the truth, the Holy Spirit guides me each day as I do my scripture reading.

If you say so.

 

[tickingclocker]

And so did his Brother Hyrum, two good men were martyred that day. Lucy actually lost three sons that day. Samuel Smith was the closest to Carthage and rode his horse like crazy over to the jail, he was first to find his brother's bodies. He was shot at several times and as he bent over the top of the saddle horn it apparently damaged his insides. "...he told his mother that he had suffered “a dreadful distress in my side ever since I was chased by the mob, and I think I have received some injury which is going to make me sick.” He died a month later.

There are a lot of conspiracy theories about Samuel's untimely death floating around. Not that this is on subject, however.

 

[tickingclocker]

There has been apostasy since the beginning. The Church won't become apostate, or else Christ's words are false. But that there are many who fall away from the faith of the Church is evident throughout history. There has never been a shortage of heretics, self-proclaimed prophets, self-appointed apostles, and false teachers leading others away from the faith to heresy. But the Church, through all of this, stands true upon the firm foundation of her Lord who has said "not even the gates of Hades shall overcome it".

-CryptoLutheran

No, there has never been a complete apostasy of the Church as mormonism erroneously implies. We know better. There have been heretical factions floating away from the truth in many ways. Christianity has never hidden that fact, just as Jesus, Paul, Peter, Timothy, James, etc., never hid the fact that tares are naturally attracted to wheat fields. What of it? this is not exactly news to us. Does God's Word lie? Even the Mormon church has had many factions spin off it yet still remain within mormonism (i.e., "JS is its prophet, and his BOM is true").

What I meant was more like a "falling away" as Phoebe put it.

 

[Rescued One]

Are you directing these scriptures at Mormons? Nice of you to think of us so highly.

If you'd actually read my posts, you wouldn't think of yourself in such a negative light.

 

[tickingclocker]

There are not that many men in the world that have given their life for the testimony of Jesus Christ. JS is one of them.

I for one, beg to differ....

"Not that many men in the world that have given their lives for the testimony of Jesus Christ"? How nice to say such a thing from an easy chair. However, doesn't sound like that is quite true to the rest of the currently watching world.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/08/12/aleppos-forgotten-christians
http://legalinsurrection.com/
http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481
http://www.dohi.org/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joop-koopman/are-christians-persecuted_b_5085636.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/19/africa/libya-isis-executions-ethiopian-christians/index.html
http://www.meforum.org/3833/syria-islamist-crucifixion

Pretty admirable for "abominable apostates", huh?

Some of us have relatives in Allepo who are under fire RIGHT NOW simply for bearing their testimony of Jesus Christ--unto death. Some even had the opportunity to stay in safety, but went back to be with their families and congregations. And there was no need to shame them into returning either. So, when was the last Mormon "martyr" accounted for? JS? Right. Hmmm.....