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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

tickingclocker

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Joseph Smith's test. :)

... When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear–Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. ...

http://askgramps.org/do-spirits-have-tangible-forms-that-we-as-mortals-can-feel/
Then Abraham was clearly in the wrong. He saw three beings and immediately understood them to be God's messengers, and without introducing himself to them with the Western concept of handshaking, he instinctively knew they were sent from the Lord, and BOWED DOWN TO THEM.

And the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth and said, “O Lord, if I have found favor in Your sight, do not pass by Your servant." (Gen 18:1-3)

But that's for another thread, being entirely off topic.
 
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Peter1000

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A. Everyone knows what the ancient Church taught. Modern churches declare the exact same truth as the first "congregation/assembly" did when they met for the very first time. Jesus saves. Jesus is Lord. The Gospel. It's been the same message ever since Jesus walked this earth. Not a jot nor tittle has been lost from the utter simplicity of that defining Gospel Message. I know it. Phoebe knows it. Armenian John knows it. Albion knows it. ViaCrusis knows it. And so forth and so on. We don't always know which denomination each of us identifies with, but we all share the exact same Gospel, and depend upon God's truth with every part of our being as "Born-again Christians" for it. As far as doctrinal teaching goes, we all know doctrine doesn't save. Jesus does. Both have been continuing biblical concepts of the ancient to modern Christian Church. Always have been, always will be.

B. I'm glad to see your admission that "'you' have your own prophet, JS", being a part of mormonism. That is the actual truth, so thank you for that. Christians, as you know, don't recognize him as such. What's more, we never will. I think you know the many reasons why, so I won't bother to get into them. Many of them have been discussed in this thread already, so why add my voice to the list?

C. Your words cannot be created without "you", so how could you expect God to be any different? Your voice can never be "disembodied" as a separate part of you, can it? It is yours, a distinct part of you. Nobody can express your thoughts the way "you" can. Same with God. Jesus is the "Word" of God, or His "Voice" so to speak. What part of God could, even within mormonism, be "created" without His Word/Voice being a part of Him? Even in mormonism within all its forms recognizes Jesus Christ as the "Word of God". Within Christianity, God is an eternal, uncreated divine Being, so therefore His Word (Jesus) and/or Voice (Jesus) has also always existed as part of Him. Very simple to comprehend. (Jesus' physical body was not created until He was born, as prophecy precisely foretold it would be. Doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist before having a human "body". God is God. He can do anything, having no need for us to "understand" His ways or require our approval in doing what He desires either. If He did, would He be God?)

D. You are right. Nowhere in the bible does it mention something so perfectly essential to all humanity, to innately comprehend our word/voice being a unique part of us and no one else. I cannot think for nor speak for anyone else but myself, just as no one can think or speak for me. It's akin to breathing--one of those things every human "gets" (or should). God never explains "how to breathe" in the bible. Not once. But we all do it. He gave us basic intelligence to grasp certain universal concepts without having to think about them, instead of patiently explaining such things like we are His idiot creation. (I believe you have the same concept within mormonism, "not everything is explained within the bible"? Correct. Some things are so basic to all humanity they are left unsaid. Use it in this instance just as handily.)

E. On the other hand, you are quite wrong when you say the concept of God's Voice/Word (Jesus) is not from the bible. That is clearly stated throughout the bible, actually. God is the Creator, therefore the concept is indisputably from Him. John 1:1 is the most recognized of all related verses that reveal this truth to humanity. If Jesus is God's Word/Voice, therefore Jesus has always existed as God's "Son". Who are we to tell God that His Voice/Word shouldn't be linguistically referred to as "HIS Son" until His "Son" is given a human body in order to call him "Father"? Personally, I'm not that foolhardy to go telling God what He should or should not do. He's the Creator of all language. If it's okay with Him, it should be okay with us, yes? Maybe I should start referring to what I write as my "daughter" (with a little "d", naturally), instead of my "text"? Hmmm..... God does encourage us to be more like Him, after all. Kind of like 'owning your own words'! This world could use more of that one! :wave:

F. Maybe you should have added "according to mormonism" when it comes to the idea of a "mother goddess" being "from God"? Judaism nor Christianity has never once found even the barest mention of such a notion within the pages of biblical text we recognize as God's spoken Word. Not for over 13,000 years. Not even within Islam has such a notion ever been discovered in the Q'uran as well. We all do realize the notion definitely being found within Paganism, however.

So, as far as the subject of this thread goes, how could there possibly have been an "apostasy" if the same Gospel Message is still joyfully being declared to the Lost, from the very first congregational assembly right up to this fine Sunday morning in the year 2016 A.D.---BY GOD'S OWN WORD?

Jesus saves! He still does. Jesus is Lord! He always will be.
Thank you for a more kind and thoughtful post. It is different from your posts in the past.

Even Mormons believes that Jesus saves. That is the centerpiece of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
That is why we follow Jesus Christ, that is why we are Christians, like you.

So if it were just that simple, there is no apostasy, you would be right, and JS would be wrong.

The whole reason for JS was because over the centuries, there has come to be hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves. You know that after we both say we believe that Jesus saves, that is not the end.
I wish it were, but you know it isn't.

The apostasy is in the form of those hundreds of ways that Jesus saves. There can only be 1 way, and that is it. It is our challenge to find the true way that Jesus saves and enter into that door and onto that path which will lead us to Eternal Life with God and Jesus.
 
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tickingclocker

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Thank you for a more kind and thoughtful post. It is different from your posts in the past.

Even Mormons believes that Jesus saves. That is the centerpiece of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
That is why we follow Jesus Christ, that is why we are Christians, like you.

So if it were just that simple, there is no apostasy, you would be right, and JS would be wrong.

The whole reason for JS was because over the centuries, there has come to be hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves. You know that after we both say we believe that Jesus saves, that is not the end.
I wish it were, but you know it isn't.

The apostasy is in the form of those hundreds of ways that Jesus saves. There can only be 1 way, and that is it. It is our challenge to find the true way that Jesus saves and enter into that door and onto that path which will lead us to Eternal Life with God and Jesus.

The Gospel is that simple. There were no "hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves." Where JS got that is in his own confused mind was when he couldn't comprehend that the Gospel's central core remained the same no matter the church name or doctrines they promoted. Christians have always recognized the basis for the Gospel is Jesus saves and that He is Lord. JS became stuck on doctrine doing the saving, which it never can. Jesus saves, alone. (A person can have perfect knowledge of all doctrine, but not accept Jesus as Savior or Lord. Their knowledge will never save them. So what does that imply about doctrine to you?) The core of the Gospel has always united all Christianity. Doctrine was never meant to "unite", because doctrine doesn't save, nor do various creeds aka "summaries of belief". We know that, too. What JS claimed that "God revealed to him" about various creeds floating around are essentially empty words, considering Christians have never trusted in "creeds" for salvation to begin with. We trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. Alone. JS never could grasp that elemental point.

There remains, as always, two views of salvation in the world. One is salvation through Jesus Christ alone, and the opposite is salvation through Jesus Christ plus human works. You are correct. There is only one way, because one of the above is partially based upon human power. And if JS was so confused by all these "hundreds of different ways" of salvation you presume there are, then why did he go and create yet another "way"? Why did he insist on tacking on requirements no one had ever heard of, including the Jews in all their history? But you wouldn't know, would you, not being him and therefore unable to understand the workings of his mind.

Mormonism does not believe that "Jesus saves". Mormonism, in all its various branches, promotes that Jesus Christ "PLUS works" saves. Please be more succinct when sharing Mormon beliefs.
 
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Peter1000

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The Gospel is that simple. There were no "hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves." Where JS got that is in his own confused mind was when he couldn't comprehend that the Gospel's central core remained the same no matter the church name or doctrines they promoted. Christians have always recognized the basis for the Gospel is Jesus saves and that He is Lord. JS became stuck on doctrine doing the saving, which it never can. Jesus saves, alone. (A person can have perfect knowledge of all doctrine, but not accept Jesus as Savior or Lord. Their knowledge will never save them. So what does that imply about doctrine to you?) The core of the Gospel has always united all Christianity. Doctrine was never meant to "unite", because doctrine doesn't save, nor do various creeds aka "summaries of belief". We know that, too. What JS claimed that "God revealed to him" about various creeds floating around are essentially empty words, considering Christians have never trusted in "creeds" for salvation to begin with. We trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. Alone. JS never could grasp that elemental point.

There remains, as always, two views of salvation in the world. One is salvation through Jesus Christ alone, and the opposite is salvation through Jesus Christ plus human works. You are correct. There is only one way, because one of the above is partially based upon human power. And if JS was so confused by all these "hundreds of different ways" of salvation you presume there are, then why did he go and create yet another "way"? Why did he insist on tacking on requirements no one had ever heard of, including the Jews in all their history? But you wouldn't know, would you, not being him and therefore unable to understand the workings of his mind.

Mormonism does not believe that "Jesus saves". Mormonism, in all its various branches, promotes that Jesus Christ "PLUS works" saves. Please be more succinct when sharing Mormon beliefs.

Ok let me be more succinct. Mormonism believes that when a person acknowledges that Jesus is their savior, they will by faith become a new person. This new person will act differently than their old person. Where the old person was full of sin, this new person will be full of faith and love for their Jesus. This fullness of love and faith will propel the new person towards good works that will bear fruit for the kingdom of God.

I would like to concentrate on that new person that does not bear fruit for the kingdom of God? What do you think will happen to that person?
 
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Jane_Doe

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The Gospel is that simple. There were no "hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves." Where JS got that is in his own confused mind was when he couldn't comprehend that the Gospel's central core remained the same no matter the church name or doctrines they promoted. Christians have always recognized the basis for the Gospel is Jesus saves and that He is Lord. JS became stuck on doctrine doing the saving, which it never can. Jesus saves, alone. (A person can have perfect knowledge of all doctrine, but not accept Jesus as Savior or Lord. Their knowledge will never save them. So what does that imply about doctrine to you?) The core of the Gospel has always united all Christianity. Doctrine was never meant to "unite", because doctrine doesn't save, nor do various creeds aka "summaries of belief". We know that, too. What JS claimed that "God revealed to him" about various creeds floating around are essentially empty words, considering Christians have never trusted in "creeds" for salvation to begin with. We trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. Alone. JS never could grasp that elemental point.

There remains, as always, two views of salvation in the world. One is salvation through Jesus Christ alone, and the opposite is salvation through Jesus Christ plus human works. You are correct. There is only one way, because one of the above is partially based upon human power. And if JS was so confused by all these "hundreds of different ways" of salvation you presume there are, then why did he go and create yet another "way"? Why did he insist on tacking on requirements no one had ever heard of, including the Jews in all their history? But you wouldn't know, would you, not being him and therefore unable to understand the workings of his mind.

Mormonism does not believe that "Jesus saves". Mormonism, in all its various branches, promotes that Jesus Christ "PLUS works" saves. Please be more succinct when sharing Mormon beliefs.
Succinct explanation of LDS beliefs of salvation:
1) Christ is the Savior and He saves you.
2) You do not and cannot save yourself.
3) But you must accept His salvation and be reborn-
4) Christ will not drag you to Heaven kicking and screaming against your will.
5) Rather, you must accept Him and listen to Him as your Lord (faith without works is dead).

Which one of these 5 points do disagree with?
 
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Albion

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The last two posts explaining the LDS view of salvation are supposed to clarify the Mormon position concerning salvation by Faith, I take it. However, the point made by "tickingclocker" was that Smith's claim of the various denominations being in wide disagreement about the mechanics of salvation was erroneous, a false charge...and tickingclocker was correct about that.
 
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Super14LDS

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I don't know what the last two posts explaining the LDS view of salvation are supposed by their authors to prove. If Mormons agree with historic Christianity on this particular matter, I don't see that as any feather in the cap of Mormonism or anything that gives the LDS a leg up on historic Christianity.

In case someone has forgotten, the point made by "tickingclocker" was that Smith's claim that the various denominations were in disagreement about the mechanics of salvation was erroneous, a false charge...and tickingclocker was correct about that.

Maybe you agree on what it takes to be saved from a false understanding of Hell, but that is all. :)
 
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Albion

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Maybe you agree on what it takes to be saved from a false understanding of Hell, but that is all. :)
My apologies for the way that post came out. Please read it now in its edited version.
 
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tickingclocker

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The last two posts explaining the LDS view of salvation are supposed to clarify the Mormon position concerning salvation by Faith, I take it. However, the point made by "tickingclocker" was that Smith's claim of the various denominations being in wide disagreement about the mechanics of salvation was erroneous, a false charge...and tickingclocker was correct about that.
Thank you for your kindness, brother Albion. That was precisely my point. However, to tweak (just a bit!) what you said would be more along the lines of it being a "baseless" charge, now that I think of it. JS's accusation of Christianity would be like someone accusing me of believing that Jesus Christ's eyes were "green". How could anyone know that, and, whatever color His eyes were, how could it possibly alter the Gospel's Message? "Baseless". Any which way you slice it.

I am not here to discuss mormonism's view of salvation or to even compare it to Christianity's. That would be for another thread. What I said about Mormons being more succinct in their explanation of Mormon salvation was in response to something a Mormon mentioned in passing, for whatever reason. I replied in kind, expecting the subject to rightfully be seen as such and dropped. The subject of this particular thread is JS's claims of "Christian apostasy" are essentially null and void, making his claims impossible to have come from God, therefore identifying it as a lie.
 
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Albion

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I understand your thinking, brother, but of course the various denominations in Smith's day were not, in fact, all over the place in their ideas about how salvation comes. As you rightly pointed out, Christianity has long been divided into two camps which include, in one or the other, almost all denominations. These are salvation by Faith Alone or, OTOH, Faith + Works.
 
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tickingclocker

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I am curious to know if JS ever personally modified this particular statement of his. Does anyone know if he ever did? Was it a one-time statement? Did he ever expand upon it?

It's hard to tell considering all JS's assorted papers have not been vetted by the LDS thus far. Perhaps someday we might have more insight into his reasoning behind it.
 
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tickingclocker

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I understand your thinking, brother, but of course the various denominations in Smith's day were not, in fact, all over the place in their ideas about how salvation comes. As you rightly pointed out, Christianity has long been divided into two camps which include, in one or the other, almost all denominations. These are salvation by Faith Alone or, OTOH, Faith + Works.
Yes. Quite correct (and its sister, not brother, brother! lol!)
 
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Alla27

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Mormonism does not believe that "Jesus saves". Mormonism, in all its various branches, promotes that Jesus Christ "PLUS works" saves. Please be more succinct when sharing Mormon beliefs.
Not true. LDS believe that Jesus saves.
But the question is : WHOM does Jesus save?
LDS DOCTRINE gives TRUE answer: those who HAVE FAITH in Christ and those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of Christ can be saved. It is that simple.
 
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Super14LDS

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I understand your thinking, brother, but of course the various denominations in Smith's day were not, in fact, all over the place in their ideas about how salvation comes. As you rightly pointed out, Christianity has long been divided into two camps which include, in one or the other, almost all denominations. These are salvation by Faith Alone or, OTOH, Faith + Works.

Please explain the "dispensation of the fullness of times" and the "restitution of all things" as cited below:

Peter prophesied: “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution [restoration] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:20-21).

Paul prophesied: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him” (Ephesians 1:10).

http://www.gospelideals.org/mormon-...hrist-and-why-did-it-need-to-be-reestablished
 
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Super14LDS

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My apologies for the way that post came out. Please read it now in its edited version.

Many denominations don't even believe in baptism by immersion so completely misunderstand what it symbolizes. We all agree on the simplest terms that faith in the savior is all that's required to be saved from torment, beyond our own regret of rejecting further light and sins that we have not repented of. :)
 
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Peter1000

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Not true. LDS believe that Jesus saves.
But the question is : WHOM does Jesus save?
LDS DOCTRINE gives TRUE answer: those who HAVE FAITH in Christ and those who KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of Christ can be saved. It is that simple.
The questions are:
Whom does he save?

AND

How does he save?

Nice to hear from you again.
 
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mmksparbud

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TO MMKSPARBUD

In the beginning... was God(the Word). What does it mean?



I answered in post #426
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

At the very first time that anything was created. For nothing was created without Him. And that means anywhere ---the entire universe is God's. He is not the god of this world---He is THE ONE AND ONLY GOD of the universe and Jesus was with Him always.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
 
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Alla27

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I answered in post #426
"in the beginning...was God"
where does it say here that God the Father was always the Father?
where does it say here that Jesus was uncreated.
It says that in the beginning was God. That is all.
At the very first time that anything was created.
Where does it say that "at the very first time anything was created"?
It says that in the beginning God created heaven and earth. I don't see "ANYTHING was created at the very first time".
And that means anywhere ---the entire universe is God's.
Where does it say in the Bible that it MEANS what YOU say it means? Where does it say "ANYWHERE"?
How about before the beginning? Where does it say that God the Father was always the Father before the beginning? Where does it say that Jesus was uncreated before the beginning?
 
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withwonderingawe

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The Gospel is that simple. There were no "hundreds of different ways that Christians believe that Jesus saves." Where JS got that is in his own confused mind was when he couldn't comprehend that the Gospel's central core remained the same no matter the church name or doctrines they promoted. Christians have always recognized the basis for the Gospel is Jesus saves and that He is Lord. JS became stuck on doctrine doing the saving, which it never can. Jesus saves, alone. (A person can have perfect knowledge of all doctrine, but not accept Jesus as Savior or Lord. Their knowledge will never save them. So what does that imply about doctrine to you?) The core of the Gospel has always united all Christianity. Doctrine was never meant to "unite", because doctrine doesn't save, nor do various creeds aka "summaries of belief". We know that, too. What JS claimed that "God revealed to him" about various creeds floating around are essentially empty words, considering Christians have never trusted in "creeds" for salvation to begin with. We trust in Jesus Christ as Savior. Alone. JS never could grasp that elemental point.

There remains, as always, two views of salvation in the world. One is salvation through Jesus Christ alone, and the opposite is salvation through Jesus Christ plus human works. You are correct. There is only one way, because one of the above is partially based upon human power. And if JS was so confused by all these "hundreds of different ways" of salvation you presume there are, then why did he go and create yet another "way"? Why did he insist on tacking on requirements no one had ever heard of, including the Jews in all their history? But you wouldn't know, would you, not being him and therefore unable to understand the workings of his mind.

Mormonism does not believe that "Jesus saves". Mormonism, in all its various branches, promotes that Jesus Christ "PLUS works" saves. Please be more succinct when sharing Mormon beliefs.


I think you are trying to make something which isn't there.

This is what the Book of Mormon teaches, can you find something in there which is not biblical?
2 Nephi 11
4 Behold, my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him.
5 And also my soul delighteth in the covenants of the Lord which he hath made to our fathers; yea, my soul delighteth in his grace, and in his justice, and power, and mercy in the great and eternal plan of deliverance from death.
6 And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish.

Without Christ we are nothing, we can not save ourselves in any matter at all,

Alma 22, can you find something in here which is un-biblical
13 And Aaron did expound unto him the scriptures from the creation of Adam, laying the fall of man before him, and their carnal state and also the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world, through Christ, for all whosoever would believe on his name.

"14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth (baptism); and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest."

Where we differ is how Jesus implements his grace. You seem to want to say it just happens, you confess Jesus and suddenly you are saved.

We believe God makes a covenant with us and that covenant is brought about through the blessing of baptism.
Act 2
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for there mission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Do you not believe Peter or is this passage not in your Bible? It is in mine, how do you explain it away?

Is there anything in this next passage which contradicts the Bible?
2Nephi 31:17
17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Paul said the same thing in Philp 3
"9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded...."

There is a danger when we start to think that we have already achieved "the prize" and stop reaching for the mark.

I think there must be a great deal of pride in those who proclaim there own salvation.

John 5:26-27
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

You do not have the right to declare yourself saved only Jesus can do that.
 
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