LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[Peter1000]

Mr. Smith didn't have an interview with God and Jesus he had an interview with a false angel who hoodwinked Mr. Smith into making up a big lie so he could be the big shot of a bunch of lemming followers who bought into his fairy tale. The fact that Mr. Smith cannot come up with at god that matches the Bible is proof to me he is a fraud and his writings are not worth the paper they are written on and according to Jesus he should have a millstone put around his neck and tossed into the ocean for leading children astray.

JS interview with God and Jesus exactly mirror the experience that is recorded in the bible at the death of Stephen.

Now your challenge is to find a Stephen-like event in the NT that exactly mirrors your concept of God, This needs to be in a real setting, like at the death of Stephen. That is your challenge, so take a few hours, read the NT again and see if you can find an event that mirrors your concept of God.

 

[Rescued One]

JS interview with God and Jesus exactly mirror the experience that is recorded in the bible at the death of Stephen.

Now your challenge is to find a Stephen-like event in the NT that exactly mirrors your concept of God. That is your challenge, so take a few hours, read the NT again and see if you can find an event that mirrors your concept of God.

We should desire truth. God's word is truth and that includes the Old Testament.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The rest of the foundation are the apostles and prophets of the time. There are no apostles or prophets since then.

Except the Bible doesn't say that at all. In fact it talks about future prophets.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Except the Bible doesn't say that at all. In fact it talks about future prophets.

The only future prophets will be in the end times, which we are not at yet (although maybe close).

The Bible is clear that an Apostle's job is to be the foundation and complete the Word of God for the Church to be guided by. The Apostles provided the final revelations and wrote them into the books of the Bible, being inspired divinely to do so. Jude 1:3 confirms that the gospel was delivered and that Christians now need to beware anyone coming with a new and FALSE "gospel" or doctrines.
Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

Later, Jude again refers Christians to heed what the apostles have already said:
Jude 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.

There is no further revelation - that is a fable that the Mormon religion puts forth but it contradicts God's Perfect, Holy, and Complete Word.

 

[Peter1000]

The only future prophets will be in the end times, which we are not at yet (although maybe close).

The Bible is clear that an Apostle's job is to be the foundation and complete the Word of God for the Church to be guided by. The Apostles provided the final revelations and wrote them into the books of the Bible, being inspired divinely to do so. Jude 1:3 confirms that the gospel was delivered and that Christians now need to beware anyone coming with a new and FALSE "gospel" or doctrines.
Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

Later, Jude again refers Christians to heed what the apostles have already said:
Jude 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.

There is no further revelation - that is a fable that the Mormon religion puts forth but it contradicts God's Perfect, Holy, and Complete Word.

The foundation of your church then is the bible (which represents 1/500 of the words of earlier apostles), with Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone.
Is this the foundation of the church, according to Jesus? (Eph. 2:19-22)

Did you take the opportunity to study Eph. 4:11-15? This is a straight-forward scripture that helps us understand:
1) why Jesus gave us apostles and prophets and others (3 reasons)
2) how long Jesus expected apostles and prophets and others to be in the church(3 timeframes)
Then it ends with: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

The idea that there is no further revelation is absurd. That is the whole reason for the apostles and prophets, to give information to the saints. Do you really think that 1/500 of their words is sufficient. If you read the history of Christianity, you will know that the answer is no. Every year there was a new doctrine floating around the church and people followed after these scholars like they were Jesus himself. A good one that we talked about briefly is the "monophysite" or "miaphysite" controversy, which ended up in schism that today is not healed. If there had been living apostles, the men involved in the controversy would have taken the case to the apostles. The apostles would have told them the Jesus was fully man and fully God, and the issue would have been buried then, without repercussions. But there was not, so there was schism and some churches to this day teach false doctrine.

So don't give up on living apostles and prophets, they are essential to the true church, as the bible says.

 

[BigDaddy4]

If you would have read Eph. 4:11-14 you would have chosen 1, because that is the foundational rock that the bible testifies of, of which Jesus Christ is the Chief Corner.

You know when you say shifting prophets you speak directly against the bible. (Eph. 4:11-14) You can say that you are for the Rock of Jesus Christ, that is a good saying. But Jesus himself said there is more to the foundation of his church than himself, and one of the parts of his living foundation is prophets. So what you say is contrary to the bible in many ways. You choose to follow the bible when it fits your agenda, you choose to disregard it, if it doesn't. You have totally disregarded Eph. 4:11-14 and that too bad, because it is the most straight forward scripture that gives you the rock solid reason we need apostles and prophets, together with Jesus Christ in Jesus's day and our day. Talk about shifty.

I read and understand Eph 4:11-14, which is why I chose a different answer than the choices you provided.

 

[Peter1000]

Not to mention the topic of the thread IS Mr Smith.

The actual thread is: JS lied about the apostacy. It is not on JS himself. Start a new thread if you wish.

 

[Albion]

But you ARE adding to the Bible when you say that the Bible is closed, because the Bible does NOT say that at all.

That's not adding anything. It's refusing to do just that. To add to the canon means to actually add books or verses, not a new or different way of understanding the Bible as it stands or any part of it.

 

[Peter1000]

The rest of the foundation are the apostles and prophets of the time. There are no apostles or prophets since then.

The analogy given is that of a building. Just as there is one cornerstone for the foundation there is only one foundation. It is not an ever-expanding foundation; the church is built on its foundation. What comes after the foundation is the building, which in this analogy is the Church.

How has anyone disregarded Eph. 4:11-14? Nobody has.

The foundation of the Church is the apostles and prophets of the New Testament with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone. That foundation was completed and the Church is built on top of it.

The Word of God is sufficient for all instruction. No man (including Joseph Smith) and not even an angel (like "Moroni") can add to it.

Then have we all come to a unity of the faith? (Eph. 4:13)

Have we all come to the knowledge of the Son of God? (Eph 4:13)

Are we all perfect men, who measure up to the stature of the fulness of Christ? (Eph. 4:13)

If not, then we still need Jesus revealing things from heaven to living apostles and prophets and evenagelist and pastors, and teachers, for:
1) the perfecting of the saints (Eph. 4:12 ) Are we perftect yet?

2) for the edifying of the body of Christ. (Eph. 4:12 We need these living officers to be edified.

3) the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:12) We need to be perfected and daily we need to be edified, so the work of their ministry is still necessary.

And then we can be more assured that this will happen: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph. 4:14)

Always remember that it was Jesus that gave them. (Eph. 4:11)

Why did Jesus give these offices? Because he knew that the cornerstone of a foundation was not enough. He was going to be gone, so he needed men here to organize and grow and expand his church. So he expanded the foundation to include apostles and prophets and evenagelits and pastors and teachers. Here is the question: Why would he call apostles and prophets and give them such hugh authority and the keys of the kingdom of heaven and then dismiss foundational offices when a few churches got established around the Mediterranean Sea, and they had written a few letters to the churches, but keep lesser offices like pastors and teachers? It is absurd to say the pastor is necessary but not the foundational apostle. It is absurd to say that the evnagelist and teacher are necessary but not foundational apostles and prophets.

 

[Peter1000]

There is no need for living prophets, so far they only seem to want to rewrite the bible to suit their own agenda and exalt themselves to a position of power over others that profits them.

Paul says in Eph. 4:11-14 that Jesus gave apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers until these things come to pass:

1) we all come to a unity of the faith. If we are all in the unity of the faith then there is no need for living apostels and prophets and others. If we are not in the unity of the faith then we still need apostles and prophets and others today. We are obviously not in the unity of the faith. Therefore they are still needed, according to the bible. Not JS.

2) we all have a knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do we all have a full knowledge of Jesus Christ? If we all do, then we do not need apostles and prophets and others. If we all do not have a full knowledge of Jesus Christ, then we need apostles and prophets and others today. We all do not have a knowledge of Jesus Christ. Therefore, they are still needed, according to the bible. Not JS.

3) we are all perfect men that measure up to the stature of Jesus Christ. If we are all perfect men, like Jesus is perfect, then we do not need apostles and prophets and others. If we are not all perfect men, like Jesus is perfect, then we need apostles and prophets and others today. We are not all perfect men, like Jesus is perfect. Therefore they are still needed, according to the bible. Not JS.

So according to the bible your statement is silly. Read Eph. 4:11-14 again, slowly, it is a straight-forward scripture to help understand the need for a firm foundation of Christ's true church.

 

[fatboys]

NYCGuy, I think what we have here are several people whose main interest is in defending, in anyway possible, the position of their own church on this matter, even to the point of "playing dumb" when explanations are given by us. It's not about participating in an open exchange of ideas concerning the nature of God or of Joseph Smith's rejection of the standard Christian POV.

Actually it was Jesus who told Jospeh Smith that the true church was not the earth. You need to take that up with him. The casts are dyed

 

[Albion]

Actually it was Jesus who told Jospeh Smith that the true church was not the earth. You need to take that up with him. The casts are dyed

The casts are dyed. Hmmmm. Words to ponder.

 

[Swan7]

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[Alla27]

Where did the ancient Church established by Jesus Christ ever teach a belief in a Heavenly Mother deity married to God the Father?

You don't know everything what ancient Church taught.
Many those things that you don't know were revealed again in this dispensation.
We have prophet Joseph Smith. God revealed to him things that were lost.
Those who say that God was always Father and that Son is uncreated did NOT get this idea:
1)from the Bible
2)from God
So, how did he come up with that strange idea that Father was always a Father?
Idea of Heavenly Mother is not strange and it is easy to comprehend. This idea is from God.

 

[mmksparbud]

You don't know everything what ancient Church taught.
Many those things that you don't know were revealed again in this dispensation.
We have prophet Joseph Smith. God revealed to him things that were lost.
Those who say that God was always Father and that Son is uncreated did NOT get this idea:
1)from the Bible
2)from God
So, how did he come up with that strange idea that Father was always a Father?

Idea of Heavenly Mother is not strange and it is easy to comprehend. This idea is from God.

Jesus and God always were---it is Jesus that created everything, including Lucifer.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Viacrucis is not the one with the strange idea. It is this heavenly mother mentioned nowhere in the bible that is a strange bizarre idea. JS did nothing to test if these "spirits" that came to him were from God, he just accepted them. What did you do to prove those spirits that came to you were from God??? Neither JS nor you were visited by God. These ideas are not from God.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[Alla27]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning... was God(the Word). What does it mean?

 

[mmksparbud]

Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)
From G0756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

At the very first time that anything was created. For nothing was created without Him. And that means anywhere ---the entire universe is God's. He is not the god of this world---He is THE ONE AND ONLY GOD of the universe and Jesus was with Him always.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Super14LDS]

Jesus and God always were---it is Jesus that created everything, including Lucifer.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Viacrucis is not the one with the strange idea. It is this heavenly mother mentioned nowhere in the bible that is a strange bizarre idea. JS did nothing to test if these "spirits" that came to him were from God, he just accepted them. What did you do to prove those spirits that came to you were from God??? Neither JS nor you were visited by God. These ideas are not from God.
2Co_11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Joseph Smith's test.

... When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear–Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. ...

http://askgramps.org/do-spirits-have-tangible-forms-that-we-as-mortals-can-feel/

 

[mmksparbud]

Joseph Smith's test.

... When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear–Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message. If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him. ...

http://askgramps.org/do-spirits-have-tangible-forms-that-we-as-mortals-can-feel/

You won't feel anything???!!! If that was his test, these apparitions were not of God---definitely and for sure!!! Thank you---I finally get an answer! Nowhere in the bible does it say such a thing---but the stuff JS came up with never has been in the bible---You have swallowed a lie, hook, line and sinker. Was that your test also??---Too bad---this is like a bad movie------BYE!----


Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
Act 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

 

[tickingclocker]

You don't know everything what ancient Church taught.
Many those things that you don't know were revealed again in this dispensation.
We have prophet Joseph Smith. God revealed to him things that were lost.
Those who say that God was always Father and that Son is uncreated did NOT get this idea:
1)from the Bible
2)from God
So, how did he come up with that strange idea that Father was always a Father?
Idea of Heavenly Mother is not strange and it is easy to comprehend. This idea is from God.

A. Everyone knows what the ancient Church taught. Modern churches declare the exact same truth as the first "congregation/assembly" did when they met for the very first time. Jesus saves. Jesus is Lord. The Gospel. It's been the same message ever since Jesus walked this earth. Not a jot nor tittle has been lost from the utter simplicity of that defining Gospel Message. I know it. Phoebe knows it. Armenian John knows it. Albion knows it. ViaCrusis knows it. And so forth and so on. We don't always know which denomination each of us identifies with, but we all share the exact same Gospel, and depend upon God's truth with every part of our being as "Born-again Christians" for it. As far as doctrinal teaching goes, we all know doctrine doesn't save. Jesus does. Both have been continuing biblical concepts of the ancient to modern Christian Church. Always have been, always will be.

B. I'm glad to see your admission that "'you' have your own prophet, JS", being a part of mormonism. That is the actual truth, so thank you for that. Christians, as you know, don't recognize him as such. What's more, we never will. I think you know the many reasons why, so I won't bother to get into them. Many of them have been discussed in this thread already, so why add my voice to the list?

C. Your words cannot be created without "you", so how could you expect God to be any different? Your voice can never be "disembodied" as a separate part of you, can it? It is yours, a distinct part of you. Nobody can express your thoughts the way "you" can. Same with God. Jesus is the "Word" of God, or His "Voice" so to speak. What part of God could, even within mormonism, be "created" without His Word/Voice being a part of Him? Even in mormonism within all its forms recognizes Jesus Christ as the "Word of God". Within Christianity, God is an eternal, uncreated divine Being, so therefore His Word (Jesus) and/or Voice (Jesus) has also always existed as part of Him. Very simple to comprehend. (Jesus' physical body was not created until He was born, as prophecy precisely foretold it would be. Doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist before having a human "body". God is God. He can do anything, having no need for us to "understand" His ways or require our approval in doing what He desires either. If He did, would He be God?)

D. You are right. Nowhere in the bible does it mention something so perfectly essential to all humanity, to innately comprehend our word/voice being a unique part of us and no one else. I cannot think for nor speak for anyone else but myself, just as no one can think or speak for me. It's akin to breathing--one of those things every human "gets" (or should). God never explains "how to breathe" in the bible. Not once. But we all do it. He gave us basic intelligence to grasp certain universal concepts without having to think about them, instead of patiently explaining such things like we are His idiot creation. (I believe you have the same concept within mormonism, "not everything is explained within the bible"? Correct. Some things are so basic to all humanity they are left unsaid. Use it in this instance just as handily.)

E. On the other hand, you are quite wrong when you say the concept of God's Voice/Word (Jesus) is not from the bible. That is clearly stated throughout the bible, actually. God is the Creator, therefore the concept is indisputably from Him. John 1:1 is the most recognized of all related verses that reveal this truth to humanity. If Jesus is God's Word/Voice, therefore Jesus has always existed as God's "Son". Who are we to tell God that His Voice/Word shouldn't be linguistically referred to as "HIS Son" until His "Son" is given a human body in order to call him "Father"? Personally, I'm not that foolhardy to go telling God what He should or should not do. He's the Creator of all language. If it's okay with Him, it should be okay with us, yes? Maybe I should start referring to what I write as my "daughter" (with a little "d", naturally), instead of my "text"? Hmmm..... God does encourage us to be more like Him, after all. Kind of like 'owning your own words'! This world could use more of that one!

F. Maybe you should have added "according to mormonism" when it comes to the idea of a "mother goddess" being "from God"? Judaism nor Christianity has never once found even the barest mention of such a notion within the pages of biblical text we recognize as God's spoken Word. Not for over 13,000 years. Not even within Islam has such a notion ever been discovered in the Q'uran as well. We all do realize the notion definitely being found within Paganism, however.

So, as far as the subject of this thread goes, how could there possibly have been an "apostasy" if the same Gospel Message is still joyfully being declared to the Lost, from the very first congregational assembly right up to this fine Sunday morning in the year 2016 A.D.---BY GOD'S OWN WORD?

Jesus saves! He still does. Jesus is Lord! He always will be.