LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Dale said:

Apparently the only source for Kolob in Mormon scripture is the Book of Abraham.

As you know, I extensively criticized the Book of Abraham on another thread.

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And I defended the Book of Abraham.

dzheremi said:

It should surprise no one but Mormons that JS didn't know things that the people of his time and place didn't know either, since it's only Mormons that believe that JS had access to all kinds of special knowledge, and that JS/the BOM is being more and more proven right with advancements in science. (Actual scientists who aren't bought off by the LDS propaganda machine don't agree with that, obviously.)

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OK, one more lesson on BOM and science. In 1830 people of science and non science laughed their heads off that JS said he had translated the BOM from gold plates, which they said was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. People did not write on gold plates, especially ignorant Indians from the Americas. How stupid does JS think we are?

Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?

It's no surprise, then, that our resident Mormons have nothing to say in response beyond the by now very tired non-reply of "Yeah, well, you too!", as though Christians have ever claimed that God lives on or near a star named Kolob or on any other star.

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Oh, Christians have no knowledge of Kolob. We are trying to bring you up to speed, but you are hard to convince. Where do you think heaven is anyway? When Jesus said to Mary he was going to his God and his Father, where do you Christians think Jesus went, anyway? I would like to know?

And still after all the years I've spent here so far discussing things with them, I can't understand why the best they can apparently shoot for in a mixed faith environment is to be considered equal with Christianity, a religion which they and their founding prophet believe to be corrupted beyond repair. Aiming pretty low there, aren't you guys?

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That is where you are mistaken. We are not asking you to make us equal with Christianity, we only ask that you acknowledge that we are Christians. You know as the scriptures say that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Notice the scriptures do not say that the ___________ (add you church name) were called Christians first in Antioch. We are disciples of Jesus Chirst.

mmksparbud said:

Now you finally say it. It not based on facts, in our knowledge of the God of this universe from the scriptures, but from your faith in one man, Joseph Smith. He can not, and never will, save anyone, including Himself. There is no other name by which we may be saved---Jesus Christ. None of the writings of JS point to Jesus as our ONLY Savior, the ONLY Son of God. They do point to him.

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You must have read about 2 pages of anything that JS wrote to be that ignorant.

mmksparbud said:

LOL! God created all matter and He can destroy it if He wants. He is God, He doesn't heed the rantings of a less than knowledgeable man, JS.

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So God can create and destroy matter, but he cannot refuel a star if he wishes to? Wow.

mmksparbud said:

Then get away from the writings of JS, he paints an ineffectual, powerless, god that is nothing like the real God of this universe who is all powerful, who's very voice is obeyed by even the elements ---who when He says be fruitful and multiply did not require a fallen angel to cause His creation to sin before they could have children!! The real Majestic, loving God that saves all who follow Him into His presence---not just a select few---all will be in His presence. The real God does not require any wife. The real God will destroy all sin---He will not let it continue by giving any man godhood that they have children that require salvation over and over, filling more planets with evil!! No--He will get rid of it permanently. You do not know the real God of the bible, the Son, nor the Holy Spirit, for He is everywhere at the same time, not like your feeble caricature of a holy spirit that can only be in one place at a time!! There is so much that you are not acquainted with because JS did not know the real God.

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You are still so wrong, on so many levels.

mmksparbud said:

God has named them all---the real God that created them.

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Has God given men that knowledge? Is it possible that God lives on a star, or a planet? When Jesus told Mary that he was going to go to his Father and his God, where in the universe do you think he went? I would like to know?

Tell us where the throne of God is, as written in Revelations 4?

mmksparbud said:

Yah, could be He might have run out of names and decided to call some planet or star that----Nothing in the bible says He lives on a planet---it only says he lives on the 3rd heaven. That 3rd heaven could be much larger than any planet. He has billions of angels with Him. It could very well be a vast expanse with no planet involved at all. Other than 3rd heaven, I see no reason to believe He lives on some planet called Kolob because someone says he had a vision from God.

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We have 8 billion people on this tiny Earth. Again, where did Jesus go to the Father and where is the throne that John saw in Revelations 4?

Dale said:

It sounds like Kolob is something Joseph Smith made up.

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All we can say is, time will tell. Can you tell me where Jesus went, when he told Mary he was going to his Father and his God?

Can you tell me where the throne of God is as John tells us he saw in Revelations 4?

Peter1000 said:

You must have read about 2 pages of anything that JS wrote to be that ignorant.

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Ignorant? THAT THERE IS NO OTHER NAME BY WEHICH WE MAY BE SAVED YOU CALL IGNORANT! THAT PROVES MY POINT. Esp.. when no one can enter into heaven without the say so of JS. The ignorance is obviously yours.

Peter1000 said:

So God can create and destroy matter, but he cannot refuel a star if he wishes to? Wow.

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Who said that?

Peter1000 said:

You are still so wrong, on so many levels.

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But, as always, you refuse to name the levels. All you ever say is somelne is wrong but never say what is wrong and what is the correct view.

Peter1000 said:

Has God given men that knowledge? Is it possible that God lives on a star, or a planet? When Jesus told Mary that he was going to go to his Father and his God, where in the universe do you think he went? I would like to know?

Tell us where the throne of God is, as written in Revelations 4?

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Well, that is the point, isn't it---the bible does not say where. It just says He is in the 3rd heaven. Nothing says He is limited to a star. He has billions of angels, He is building us all homes there, the New Jerusalem is there and the dimensions of it are in the bible. He can have all that anywhere He wants and needs no planet or star. It is a made up name that is mentioned nowhere in scripture. JS did not know.

Peter1000 said:

We have 8 billion people on this tiny Earth. Again, where did Jesus go to the Father and where is the throne that John saw in Revelations 4?

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Read post #92.

mmksparbud said:

Ignorant? THAT THERE IS NO OTHER NAME BY WEHICH WE MAY BE SAVED YOU CALL IGNORANT! THAT PROVES MY POINT. Esp.. when no one can enter into heaven without the say so of JS. The ignorance is obviously yours.

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Not just ignorant but grossly ignorant.

For you to say in post 63:
None of the writings of JS point to Jesus as our ONLY Savior, the ONLY Son of God. They do point to him.

I have never read anything that rediculous about JS's writings from any anti Mormon writings that I have read over the last 50 years. Of the hundreds and hundeds of pages of writings, it is almost monotonous to read and reread that Jesus is the only begotton Son of God, and the only way that man can be saved. So obvously you have not read anything from JS, maybe except for a few controversial things that he wrote for the purpose of finding fault.

Are you also ignorant about the billions of people of the House of Israel? You are aware that Peter and the 12 apostles will judge the entire House of Israel. Billions of people have to go thrugh Peter and the 12.

Could it be that there will be so many billions of people that are unworthy even to stand before their maker, or are so evil that it is unecessary that Jesus hear their cases, that underlings will be called in to judge these people? We don't know but the scripture is clear Peter and the 12 will be involved.

With that knowledge in hand it is not unreasonable to think that Adam, and Enoch, and Noah, and Abraham, and countless others will be involved in the judgement. And totally reasonable to think that JS, the restoring prophet of the last great dispensation of time, would not be involved in the judgement also. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is a reasonable concept, knowing that other mortal men will be involved.

So don't make statements that NONE of JS writings..... it just exposes your ignorance.

mmksparbud said:

Well, that is the point, isn't it---the bible does not say where. It just says He is in the 3rd heaven. Nothing says He is limited to a star. He has billions of angels, He is building us all homes there, the New Jerusalem is there and the dimensions of it are in the bible. He can have all that anywhere He wants and needs no planet or star. It is a made up name that is mentioned nowhere in scripture. JS did not know.

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Could Kolob be in the 3rd heaven? You don't know and until I see it, I have to believe by faith.

If God and the angels don't need a star or planet, are they just drifiting in open space somewhere. Be reasonable. It would be far more reasonable that they are situated on a rather large planet, rather than just drifting out there in space, right?

Where will the New Jerusalem be, if not on a planet? Will we all be in the New Jerusalem, just drifting in open space somewhere? Think about it just for a few seconds and you will see your dilemma, and JS's concept may not seem so far fetched.

Peter1000 said:

So God can create and destroy matter, but he cannot refuel a star if he wishes to? Wow.

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You are arguing against yourself here. It was He Is The Way that stated God would/could refuel our sun if/when it runs out. Given that the lds believe all matter exists and God can't create something out of nothing, He just "organizes" matter, I asked where this fuel would come from? No one from the Christian perspective in this thread claimed God couldn't refuel a star if He chose to.

Peter1000 said:

Not just ignorant but grossly ignorant.

For you to say in post 63:
None of the writings of JS point to Jesus as our ONLY Savior, the ONLY Son of God. They do point to him.

I have never read anything that rediculous about JS's writings from any anti Mormon writings that I have read over the last 50 years. Of the hundreds and hundeds of pages of writings, it is almost monotonous to read and reread that Jesus is the only begotton Son of God, and the only way that man can be saved. So obvously you have not read anything from JS, maybe except for a few controversial things that he wrote for the purpose of finding fault.

Are you also ignorant about the billions of people of the House of Israel? You are aware that Peter and the 12 apostles will judge the entire House of Israel. Billions of people have to go thrugh Peter and the 12.

Could it be that there will be so many billions of people that are unworthy even to stand before their maker, or are so evil that it is unecessary that Jesus hear their cases, that underlings will be called in to judge these people? We don't know but the scripture is clear Peter and the 12 will be involved.

With that knowledge in hand it is not unreasonable to think that Adam, and Enoch, and Noah, and Abraham, and countless others will be involved in the judgement. And totally reasonable to think that JS, the restoring prophet of the last great dispensation of time, would not be involved in the judgement also. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is a reasonable concept, knowing that other mortal men will be involved.

So don't make statements that NONE of JS writings..... it just exposes your ignorance.

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Then apparently you are not reading his writings. You also do not read scripture. Jesus is our high Pri8est, it is He who judges. When He comes back, He comes only for the saved. That means the decision as to who is lost or saved has already been made by Jesus. The judgment spoken of is to judge the punishment of the wicked for the reward of the saved of eternal life has already been given at His coming.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is not vague. The ignorance is yours for believing in what is contradictory to scripture. JS will decide nothing, he will be amongst those judged for wickedness.

mmksparbud said:

But, as always, you refuse to name the levels. All you ever say is somelne is wrong but never say what is wrong and what is the correct view.

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We have been talking about these things for 5 years now, and you still are saying the wrong things that you think we believe after all this time. In all that time I have probaby written a whole book on what Mormons believe, and yet you still come back with what you said 5 years ago.

Are you kidding, all I say is some line is wrong but never say what is wrong and what is the correct view. Are you kidding. I have given you far more information than I should have because you were interested, a book full of Mormonism and you still come up with you have given me nothing?

Lets take your statement that God needed a fallen angel in order for there to be children on the earth. First of all, I have told you many, many times. There was no children mentioned in the bible until after the fall. You can make up all kinds of scenarios as to why there could and should have been children before the fall, but it is all conjecture, since the bible clearly is silent about children before the fall.

So our position has always been the same. There was no children before the fall, period. You are the one that keeps saying that we believe then that God needed satan in order for children to be on earth. We have never said that, but you have added that to our beliefs. It is untrue.
It has always been untrue and it is still untrue today.

It is however interesting that God allowed a fallen angel to enter the garden of Eden and allowed him access to a vulnerable Adam and Eve. I have asked this question before, but it seems like you respond that God did not need a fallen angel to do anything for him.
Well yes, that is true, but it does not answer the question: Why did God allow the fallen angel into the garden, with the sad result that Adam and Eve were eventually thrown out before they had children?

Answer this too. Was God caught completely by surprise when Adam and Eve buckled under the pressure and trickery from satan, and partook of the forbidden fruit?

Answer this too. If God was caught completely by surprise and it ruined his plans for his chidren to be happy, why did he not just rewind back to the time just after placing Adam and Eve in the garden, and then not allow satan into the garden, in hopes that they would some day figure out how to have children and all mankind would live forever in happiness. If this is what God wanted, why did it not happen this way?

So lets open it up again and see how far it goes if you wish.

Peter1000 said:

Could Kolob be in the 3rd heaven? You don't know and until I see it, I have to believe by faith.

If God and the angels don't need a star or planet, are they just drifiting in open space somewhere. Be reasonable. It would be far more reasonable that they are situated on a rather large planet, rather than just drifting out there in space, right?

Where will the New Jerusalem be, if not on a planet? Will we all be in the New Jerusalem, just drifting in open space somewhere? Think about it just for a few seconds and you will see your dilemma, and JS's concept may not seem so far fetched.

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You go right ahead and believe your faith---I choose to believe in what the scriptures say and not make up stories regarding what it doesn't say. Jesus is the creator of all---He created those planets--there were none until He did so.

BigDaddy4 said:

You are arguing against yourself here. It was He Is The Way that stated God would/could refuel our sun if/when it runs out. Given that the lds believe all matter exiarysts and God can't create something out of nothing, He just "organizes" matter, I asked where this fuel would come from? No one from the Christian perspective in this thread claimed God couldn't refuel a star if He chose to.

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Helium, oxygen, carbon, hydrogen are available all over the universe, and it would not take much for God to take these elements from X and transfer them to our sun. For God, that process would be elementary, assuming God wished the sun to last a little longer.